So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

[Doveaman]

Clearly you did not understand the analogy. Jesus is the "Mafia".

And creationists should admit that they do not understand logic. That is all that needs to be said.

I understood it quite well.

His point was:

Clearly there is no room for free will here. Either join the Mafia or be shot!

My point is, there is room for free will here.

Jesus freely chose to be shot/crucified rather than join the Mafia/Pharisees.

We are discussing “free will”, not the “Mafia”.

 

[Doveaman]

The common young earth creationist literal interpretation of Genesis is absolutely contradicted by the evidence.

So either the Bible is wrong, or it should not be interpreted literally.

Or the interpretation of the evidence is wrong, or you are trying to suppress the truth, or ……

 

[TLK Valentine]

I understood it quite well.

His point was:
My point is, there is room for free will here.

Jesus freely chose to be shot/crucified rather than join the Mafia/Pharisees.

We are discussing “free will”, not the “Mafia”.

Great -- care to discuss our "free will" now?

A "choice" made with a gun to one's head is hardly "free," don't you think?

 

[Doveaman]

To clarify, imagine this scenario if you will: God appears to me today and says "I saw the future and I see that tomorrow you will eat an apple". The question was, knowing that, can I decide not to eat the apple?

Yes.

So God made you write those words above? Is that what you really believe? God is making you write things? You are not choosing the letters to hit on the keyboard?

Hard, isn't it? No, that is not what he believes. That is what is described in the Bible.

Can you back up your claim about the Bible with the Bible?

You disappoint me... The answer would be yes if there was such thing free will.

My answer is yes.

Now what?

Here is a Biblical lesson for you: free will means that God knows our future but decides to let us change it (if we chose to do so).

Can you back up your claim about the Bible with the Bible?

I never said it was a prophecy, a command or anything of the sort. All I said was that God saw into the future and told me that tomorrow I would eat an apple.

That, by definition, is a prophecy.

When God predicts the future He is not doing it blindly like the scientific method does. That’s why prophesies always come true; He is describing what He already saw happened from His omnipresent perspective.

If everything that Gods sees in the future happens, then our destinies (I really don't like that word) are pre-determined and there is no such thing as free will.

If God saw it already happened, how can it be pre-determined?

If I decide not to eat the apple, but tomorrow I eat it anyways, there is no free will.

Logic fail.

You decided not to eat the apple, but then decided to eat the apple. Free will allowed you to change your mind.

Your freewill is embedded in your future.

This is just too much. So, we have free will to decide whatever we want but all of our decisions are embedded? This is neither the secular nor the Biblical free will.

Just as the actions are in the future, the decision to choose those actions is also in the future.

if you cannot change your decision you do not have free will.

I think we can all agree with that.

The point is, we can change our decision.

We can decide not to eat the apple, but then change our mind and decide to eat the apple.

You still don't get it, do you?

Actually, we do get it. You are the one not getting it.

Nobody needs to go back in time.

That's only because the omnipresent God is already back in time. He is also in present time and future time.

Here, once more to see if you understand:

1. God comes to you today and says: tomorrow you will eat an apple.

2. With the information provided to you today you decide not to eat an apple tomorrow.

If 2 is not possible and you have to eat the apple, there is no freewill.

But "2." is possible.

“Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.’ Peter said to Him, ‘Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!’” – (Matt 26:34-35).

Peter made the decision not to deny Christ despite Christ telling him he would.

 

[essentialsaltes]

or you are trying to suppress the truth

I am not suppressing anything. I have no control over what people post in this forum.

 

[Doveaman]

If God is truly eternal and if he's truly all present and not bound by time, then talking about God 'going back in time' makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He can't 'go back in time' because he's already present in the past, just as he's present in the...present, and just as he's present in the future.

You are making a very good point in favor of free will.

Let's say God sees me eating an apple in the future, and tells me about this. Could I, then, choose not to eat the apple?

Yes, but you can change your mind and choose to eat it eventually.

But I haven't already made the decision, that's the whole problem. From God's perspective, I have - he can see the future as well as the present. But now that he's given me the knowledge of what I will do in the future, I have the option of simply NOT doing it, an option I would not have had if he never told me anything. And if I choose not to do the thing he told me I was going to do, it does create a paradox - but what's to stop me from creating this paradox, now that I know what will trigger it? What would stop me from not eating the apple?

Environmental pressures.

When Jesus told Peter he would deny Him, Peter made the decision not to do so.

“Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.’ Peter said to Him, ‘Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!’” – (Matt 26:34-35).

But because of environmental pressures Peter then decided to deny Jesus.

Peter’s free will was continually at work back and forth throughout the whole episode.

 

[Doveaman]

I was speaking from your perspective. In that case God would be speaking to you in your past....so to speak.

Good discussion though because you make a good point that God is essentially outside of time. So if God tells you what will happen it has essentially already happened. Just not for you. That entire concept has no effect on free will. It can exist along with God's all knowing and all powerful attributes.

 

[lasthero]

You are making a very good point in favor of free will.

I'm not arguing for or against free will.

Yes, but you will still choose to eat it eventually.

Why? If I choose not to eat it, why will I still choose to eat it? What's going to make me eat it?

But because of environmental pressures Peter then decided to betray Jesus.

What if he just left the environment?

 

[Doveaman]

I'm not arguing for or against free will.

Then what are you arguing for or against?

Why? If I choose not to eat it, why will I still choose to eat it?

You can change your mind and make a different choice.

What's going to make me eat it?

If you made the decision to eat it, then you made yourself eat it.

What if he just left the environment?

He didn't.

 

[Doveaman]

I am not suppressing anything. I have no control over what people post in this forum.

I never said you did.

 

[Doveaman]

Great -- care to discuss our "free will" now?

A "choice" made with a gun to one's head is hardly "free," don't you think?

You are still free to choose to comply or free to choose not to.

Jesus chose not to comply, even with a "cross" to his head.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You are still free to choose to comply or free to choose not to.

Just like when the mugger puts the gun to my head -- I am free to hand over my wallet or free to take a bullet between the eyes.

 

[Doveaman]

So that we may choose slavery?

No. So that we may be free to choose, period.

 

[Doveaman]

Just like when the mugger puts the gun to my head -- I am free to hand over my wallet or free to take a bullet between the eyes.

Yes.

 

[lasthero]

Then what are you arguing for or against?

Why must I be arguing for or against anything? I can't ask questions?

You can change your mind and make a different choice.

Why would I do that?

If you made the decision to eat it, then you made yourself eat it.

What if I decide not to eat it?

He didn't.

I know he didn't. What if he did?

 

[frogman2x]

Because it is a story written by bronze age people who believed the earth to be flat?

How do you know they thought the earth wa flat? The Bible does not say it is. The pepole who invented bronze(Cain's sons) were smarter than most of the people started using it. There is no evidence that most of the people during the bronze age were ignorant.

 

[lasthero]

There is no evidence that most of the people during the bronze age were ignorant.

There's no evidence Cain's sons invented Bronze. Bronze appears in numerous early cultures, like the early Greeks and Chinese, before these groups even had any real interaction with each other.

 

[mzungu]

I understood it quite well.

His point was:
My point is, there is room for free will here.

Jesus freely chose to be shot/crucified rather than join the Mafia/Pharisees.

We are discussing “free will”, not the “Mafia”.

Sorry but when a religion says: "either you worship our God or be damned for eternity in fire and brimstone"; This is clearly a case of one not having free will. Either join us or be shot. Sorry but I would rather be shot than to succumb to blackmail.

 

[biggles53]

How do you know they thought the earth wa flat?

Because all of the other cultures in the region (with the exception of the Greeks) believed the earth to be flat at that time. And also because the Bible says that's what they thought....

The Bible does not say it is.

Errr.....yes it does. It references a flat earth in several of the descriptions it gives of the surface......

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry but when a religion says: "either you worship our God or be damned for eternity in fire and brimstone"; This is clearly a case of one not having free will. Either join us or be shot. Sorry but I would rather be shot than to succumb to blackmail.

Do you take that "freedom" to your boss?

"Sorry, boss; but when you tell me to either work here for you, or I'm fired; this is clearly a case of one not having free will. Either work for us or be fired. Sorry, but I would rather be fired than to succumb to blackmail."