So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

[mzungu]

They already answered no, and that leads to only one possible conclusion: there is no freewill.

It is just like the authoritarian regimes that suppress all free will yet name their regime "People's Democratic Republic of ......."

You have to join the Mafia. If you decide not to or to join and then leave you will be shot. Of course you are free to choose.

 

[frogman2x]

If the book of Genesis is not meant to be taken literally why stop other books of the Bible to be the same?

Why should Genesis not be taken literally?

 

[mzungu]

Why should Genesis not be taken literally?

Because it is a story written by bronze age people who believed the earth to be flat?

 

[AV1611VET]

Because it is a story written by bronze age people who believed the earth to be flat?

Can you give me one verse on that?

 

[EternalDragon]

Sarah wasn't directly told, no, but she was present and she did hear it - she even reacted to the idea (internally) as foolish, and the angels called her out on it.



First off all, how can God - a being that supposedly lives outside of time and space - go back in time? If God is truly eternal and if he's truly all present and not bound by time, then talking about God 'going back in time' makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He can't 'go back in time' because he's already present in the past, just as he's present in the...present, and just as he's present in the future.

But okay, you don't like that example, and while I disagree with you assessment of Genesis 17, I'll agree, at least, that one could make an argument either way as to whether it's a prophecy or God just telling Abraham what he expects to happen. So, then, how about the example of Jesus telling Peter that the rooster will crow three times after he denies Him? Could Peter, with this knowledge, choose to simply hide from the authorities, and therefore not have to deny Jesus? Could he have chosen not to deny Jesus at all? Could he have simply gone to an area with no roosters and stayed there? Is there anything Peter could have done that would have made Jesus' prediction untrue?

I was speaking from your perspective. In that case God would be speaking to you in your past....so to speak.

Good discussion though because you make a good point that God is essentially outside of time. So if God tells you what will happen it has essentially already happened. Just not for you. That entire concept has no effect on free will. It can exist along with God's all knowing and all powerful attributes.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Why should Genesis not be taken literally?

The common young earth creationist literal interpretation of Genesis is absolutely contradicted by the evidence.

So either the Bible is wrong, or it should not be interpreted literally.

Your choice.

 

[AV1611VET]

The common young earth creationist literal interpretation of Genesis is absolutely contradicted by the evidence.

Look how you wrote this.

A YEC is depicted as "interpreting Genesis."

But when evidence comes into the picture, "interpreting" isn't mentioned.

Why is that?

Another thing ...

It's labeled "the evidence" ... not "evidence."

Why is that?

I understand it's your prerogative to word it how you want; but why didn't you put it this way?

The common young earth creationist literal interpretation of Genesis is absolutely contradicted by the common old earth evolutionist interpretation of evidence.

Just wondering.

 

[CabVet]

Just wondering.

Because it is the wrong way to say it. What you call "literal" is called an "interpretation" by the vast majority of other Christians. And what you call an "interpretation of evidence" should really be "undisputed evidence".

 

[AV1611VET]

What you call "literal" is called an "interpretation" by the vast majority of other Christians.

I believe the term he used was "literal interpretation."

Please try again.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I understand it's your prerogative to word it how you want; but why didn't you put it this way?

Would you prefer this?

A literal reading of Genesis is contradicted by scientific evidence.

 

[46AND2]

I was speaking from your perspective. In that case God would be speaking to you in your past....so to speak.

Good discussion though because you make a good point that God is essentially outside of time. So if God tells you what will happen it has essentially already happened. Just not for you. That entire concept has no effect on free will. It can exist along with God's all knowing and all powerful attributes.

If it has already happened, as you say, then how can we choose differently?

 

[lasthero]

So if God tells you what will happen it has essentially already happened. Just not for you.

So can I or can I not change it, then? If I can't change it, no matter what I do, how is that free will?

 

[EternalDragon]

So can I or can I not change it, then? If I can't change it, no matter what I do, how is that free will?

You've already chosen from any number of possibilities, freely. You are doing it now and you will do it in the future.

Just because you can't go back in time and tell yourself to change your decision does not make it no free will. That would create a paradox. You do know what that is, right?

 

[CabVet]

You've already chosen from any number of possibilities, freely. You are doing it now and you will do it in the future.

Just because you can't go back in time and tell yourself to change your decision does not make it no free will. That would create a paradox. You do know what that is, right?

You still don't get it, do you? Nobody needs to go back in time. Here, once more to see if you understand:

1. God comes to you today and says: tomorrow you will eat an apple.

2. With the information provided to you today you decide not to eat an apple tomorrow.

If 2 is not possible and you have to eat the apple, there is no freewill.

 

[EternalDragon]

You still don't get it, do you? Nobody needs to go back in time. Here, once more to see if you understand:

1. God comes to you today and says: tomorrow you will eat an apple.

2. With the information provided to you today you decide not to eat an apple tomorrow.

If 2 is not possible and you have to eat the apple, there is no freewill.

In that case God is telling you what you are going to do as if you already did it. How can you change a decision you already made of your own free will? You already made the free will choice. God is merely stating what He observed.

You are introducing a paradox into the equation. It would be the same as asking if God told you that you ate an egg for breakfast two weeks ago, can you change it? No? Then you would state there is no free will.

Your entire question and premise is highly illogical.

 

[lasthero]

In that case God is telling you what you are going to do as if you already did it. How can you change a decision you already made of your own free will

And
But I haven't already made the decision, that's the whole problem. From God's perspective, I have - he can see the future as well as the present. But now that he's given me the knowledge of what I will do in the future, I have the option of simply NOT doing it, an option I would not have had if he never told me anything. And if I choose not to do the thing he told me I was going to do, it does create a paradox - but what's to stop me from creating this paradox, now that I know what will trigger it? What would stop me from not eating the apple?

I haven't actually made the decision yet, God is saying that I will in the future. Knowing this, can I or can I not choose to not make the decision God said I would make? Must I eat the apple? If I don't, what happens? If I'm going to eat the apple regardless of what I want to, what's forcing this decision to be the way it is?

 

[frogman2x]

So can I or can I not change it, then? If I can't change it, no matter what I do, how is that free will?

The fact that God knows it will happen, does not mean He influenced the will to make it happen.

 

[Doveaman]

It absolutely does, IF he is the omnipotent, omniscient CREATOR. He is not just an observer. He molded the world exactly as he wanted it.

God did mold the world exactly as He wanted it. He molded it so we would have free will.

“In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” – (Gen 2:9).

There is a reason why God planted two trees and not just one. It allowed for Adam to exercise his free will to choose.

We can't do a thing to change it,

But Adam did change it. He did the exact opposite to what God wanted him to do after God gave him a choice:

and that means we only have one choice

There is no such thing as “only one choice”. Having a choice demands that we have more than one option.

We have two choices, “two trees” to freely choose from just as Adam did.

for every single choice we make--the one that God knew we would make,

If we have a choice, we have free will.

God knowing what that choice would be does not mean it was the only choice. God simply knew which choice it would be, which “tree” we would freely choose to eat from.

because he created the world in which we make a specific choice, as opposed to another.

No, He did not. He planted two trees, giving us two choices.

“This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live” – (Deut 30:19).

The Bible teaches omniscience, omnipotence, creation of the universe AND free will (according to most Christians, anyway), and these things cannot logically coincide.

That’s because you are not being logical.

So, if we can't make a choice which surprises God, what choice do we have?

We have the choice that does not surprise God.

It may APPEAR that we have a choice, but we really do not.

It may APPEAR that we do not have a choice, but we really do.

 

[Doveaman]

It is just like the authoritarian regimes that suppress all free will yet name their regime "People's Democratic Republic of ......."

You have to join the Mafia. If you decide not to or to join and then leave you will be shot.

It seems to me you are describing slavery or death.

Of course you are free to choose.

Of course we are.

We are free to choose slavery or death. Jesus freely chose death.

 

[TLK Valentine]

We are free to choose slavery or death. Jesus freely chose death.

So that we may choose slavery?