So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

[AV1611VET]

I never said it was a prophecy, a command or anything of the sort. All I said was that God saw into the future and told me that tomorrow I would eat an apple.

If everything that Gods sees in the future happens, then our destinies (I really don't like that word) are pre-determined and there is no such thing as free will. If I decide not to eat the apple, but tomorrow I eat it anyways, there is no free will.

And every time I watch the IMMACULATE RECEPTION on Youtube, it's the same play.

Does that mean they had no choice but to run that pattern?

 

[CabVet]

And every time I watch the IMMACULATE RECEPTION on Youtube, it's the same play.

Does that mean they had no choice but to run that pattern?

Bad example, the movie was pre-recorded. If they played it live every time and did exactly the same thing over and over again then yes, they would have no choice.

There is no way around this AV, if I cannot change my future there is no free will.

 

[AV1611VET]

Here's another example, AV: I apologize if I am not recalling correctly, but I believe you have stated that the word of God has always existed; in heaven prior to becoming the Bible on earth. Correct?

Correct.

So, in light of that, could Judas have chosen not to betray Jesus? Peter to not deny him? Pilate to not sentence him? Etc. Etc. Etc.

Yes, but they won't.

If not, where is their free will?

Embedded in their future decision.

 

[CabVet]

Embedded in their future decision.

This is just too much. So, we have free will to decide whatever we want but all of our decisions are embedded? This is neither the secular nor the Biblical free will.

 

[AV1611VET]

Bad example, the movie was pre-recorded. If they played it live every time and did exactly the same thing over and over again then yes, they would have no choice.

There is no way around this AV, if I cannot change my future there is no free will.

Your freewill is embedded in your future.

 

[bhsmte]

Your freewill is embedded in your future.

In that case you really mean; the illusion of free will.

 

[CabVet]

Your freewill is embedded in your future.

I am sure you mean the illusion of free will. If it's embedded, by definition it is not free.

 

[AV1611VET]

This is just too much. So, we have free will to decide whatever we want but all of our decisions are embedded?

I said your FREEWILL is embedded in your future -- not your DECISION.

Here we go now -- and I'm not going to waste my precious post count on the Arab phone.

 

[AV1611VET]

In that case you really mean; the illusion of free will.

I'm not going to inordinately defend myself.

I know what I said.

 

[CabVet]

I said your FREEWILL is embedded in your future -- not your DECISION.

Here we go now -- and I'm not going to waste my precious post count on the Arab phone.

Of course, your post count is more important than a legitimate theological discussion. Here is food for thought: if you cannot change your decision you do not have free will.

 

[AV1611VET]

Here is food for thought: if you cannot change your decision you do not have free will.

Well, I certainly hope you change your mind.

 

[46AND2]

Correct.

Yes, but they won't.

Embedded in their future decision.

Really? You can't see the paradox here?

 

[46AND2]

Well, I certainly hope you change your mind.

He was speaking of Judas, Peter, Pilate and all the other Biblical characters...

 

[CabVet]

Well, I certainly hope you change your mind.

I certainly can, my mind is open for everything, including a pre-determined existence, but I really don't think that is the case and I really think the Biblical freewill actually means freewill and not "embedded freewill".

 

[AV1611VET]

Really? You can't see the paradox here?

Paradox, yes -- contradiction, no.

The Bible has many paradoxes ...

2 Corinthians 12:10b ... for when I am weak, then am I strong.

... but no contradictions.

 

[EternalDragon]

You can't answer a simple question, can you? God comes to me and says, tomorrow you will eat an apple. He does not command it, he simply states it as a fact. Can I, knowing that, decide not to eat the apple? It is a simple yes or no.

I said No. Can you not see it in my post? Hypothetical questions get hypothetical answers. You don't like my answer?

 

[AV1611VET]

I said No. Can you not see it in my post? Hypothetical questions get hypothetical answers. You don't like my answer?

He didn't like mine, when I said NO.

 

[CabVet]

He didn't like mine, when I said NO.

That's because I would like to keep my freewill.

 

[lasthero]

I believe that was Abraham that the angel told. He was in the temple praying to God and was a believer. God was sort of telling him what he was to do so not really a good example at all.

Sarah wasn't directly told, no, but she was present and she did hear it - she even reacted to the idea (internally) as foolish, and the angels called her out on it.

Give me a valid example please. It would involve God going back in time and having a purpose to tell you a specific future. God is not foolish.

First off all, how can God - a being that supposedly lives outside of time and space - go back in time? If God is truly eternal and if he's truly all present and not bound by time, then talking about God 'going back in time' makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He can't 'go back in time' because he's already present in the past, just as he's present in the...present, and just as he's present in the future.

But okay, you don't like that example, and while I disagree with you assessment of Genesis 17, I'll agree, at least, that one could make an argument either way as to whether it's a prophecy or God just telling Abraham what he expects to happen. So, then, how about the example of Jesus telling Peter that the rooster will crow three times after he denies Him? Could Peter, with this knowledge, choose to simply hide from the authorities, and therefore not have to deny Jesus? Could he have chosen not to deny Jesus at all? Could he have simply gone to an area with no roosters and stayed there? Is there anything Peter could have done that would have made Jesus' prediction untrue?

 

[CabVet]

Is there anything Peter could have done that would have made Jesus' prediction untrue?

They already answered no, and that leads to only one possible conclusion: there is no freewill.