Smoke Cigs/Dip A Sin?

[FriendOfGod6]

Doing anything that intentionally hurts the body is a sin and so in turn using tobacco is a sin. So is weed because it induces a euphoric affect.

 

[candle glow]

(goodness if your going to split the post up so much could you number the points so one can keep track of replying lol)

Haha now it's you who needs to forgive me, right?

--ok well since you admit you were clearly offended - then your admitting the need to forgive -

And yet, when Jesus rebuked the pharisees openly and publicly, he criticized them quite harshly in some cases, even calling them snakes. There was no indication of this "forgiveness" that you are referring to here.

In some cases, I feel that people use this "you need to forgive" line because it sounds loving, but in the end it only excuses the other person's behavior.

For example, why not deal with sunny's hypocrisy first, and THEN lecture me about a need to forgive him? Instead, all the emphasis is on me while sunny slinks off into the shadows, apparently because God told him it was foolish to to be accountable for his words.

--i thought you might wish to discuss what forgiveness is all about ,hence the suggestion to start a thread on it -plus it would be a wonderful topic for all to discuss.

Sure I'm open to discussing it in more detail, though since you are the one who brought it up, I don't know why you don't just start the thread on it and then invite me?

--possible offense because i have not read his replies -i just noted you began name calling and that is usually a sign that someone has some how offended some one else.

Yeah right, just like Jesus was name calling when he accused the pharisees of being snakes.

i use the word sin in ,as in - to miss the markand added ,that it is not unto condemnation until it becomes an act of disobedience to the Holy Spirit.

Sounds like semantics. I'm sure sunny probably feels like smokers are "missing the mark" too and it's almost certain he would claim that it's "not unto condemnation".

Christians would never admit to condemning others, and yet that's exactly what happens when we make unfair judgments. It's why Jesus was bugged about the pharisees and handwashing.

--I see your point abut hand-washing being a matter of judgment, However i have passed no judgment on any one , but i have judged a certain action to be sin ,in that, it misses the mark and is self gratification of the flesh and not following the Spirit (please ref' romans ch 6)

Seems like a technicality to me. Whether it's the person or the action, a judgment is being made. The question is whether or not the judgment is fair. I can't see that your judgment of ciggy smoking is fair, because it's too black/white and doesn't allow room for sincerity bewtween the individual and God.

It's a judgment based on outward appearances and when we start judging based on outward appearances we disregard a HUGELY important part of what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about.

"Go pray ,worship, sing ,spend ,time with the lord in prayer .. and if while doing so the lord offers you a ciggy - then you will know its ok to do it ."

Not such an illogical argument after all . As you pointed out in your post ,that is exactly what happened to Peter . mind you God did not bodily come down - he gave peter a vision .. and i was referring him offering you a ciggy by the holy Spirit speaking to you ,not bodily coming down to offer you one .

There is a difference.

What you did with your smoking example was to create a "ridiculous" situation much like the atheist who says he looked for Jesus under the table but couldn't find him.

Peter was being asked to go against a core belief which he'd held all his life. Obviously God felt his situation warranted something a bit stronger than Godly counsel from others or his own sense of right and wrong.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Smoking and chewing are the equivalent of being fat/overweight or eating candy etc. It is disregarding your temple/body and opening yourself up to addiction. No More No less.

 

[Michaelismyname]

yes .it is really that simple.

 

[candle glow]

Smoking and chewing are the equivalent of being fat/overweight or eating candy etc. It is disregarding your temple/body and opening yourself up to addiction. No More No less.

Oh dear, and self righteousness rears it's ugly head once again.

Why is it so difficult to get people to stop judging based on outward appearances. No wonder Jesus called them snakes...

 

[Michaelismyname]

there is quite a difference between passing judgment on someone and making a judgment on an issue .
i see no "self righteousness" in "ifnotforgrace's" post.Just sharing of common spiritual knowledge and spiritual common sense. which, in God, is wisdom.
we are not passing judgment on any individual based on outward appearance .

If you gratify the craving on the flesh (as opposed to laying down your life for the sake of the Gospel ) then you are living after the flesh and in opposition to the spirit of God who teaches us to "live not after the flesh but after the Spirit "
if you do this then you are missing the mark (that is what the word sin means .- to miss the mark and thereby fall short .it does not mean a person is condemned and no one is saying so - hence no passing of judgment on any individual is made.
but in that it misses the mark ("sins" off target like a faulty arrow ) it is sin to do it .

no one can tell a person it is ok to smoke .it would be like saying it is ok to drink drain cleaner . yes i know ,- you are not saying that - but i'v lost track of what exactly it is that your trying to say - you have spent more time dismantling posts then you have giving some kind of clear message .when you just call folk self righteous, you appear as one who considers them self more righteous then others and your claim may only be based on misunderstanding. tell us how long you smoked for ,how did you get free from its most annoying addiction?
and try not to break down every post .look at the over all message of the post as a whole
when you dissect it into so many pieces ,all you do is blur the message and break it down until it no longer has a meaning .this results in an unclear trumpet sound and folk wont know which way to go .

 

[candle glow]

Whatever, michael. That whole "fat people" thing just made it even clearer. You're judging based on outward appearances, and I've been saying that all along, just like the pharisees judged Jesus and his disciples for not washing their hands.

They saw something ugly on the outside and totally missed the point of what's happening on the inside. It's so easy to judge outward appearances because it doesn't take any real discernment.

You can dress it up with fancy speech about "harm" and "addictions" all you like, but it's still judging the outward appearance.

You will be judged the same as you judged others. Thank God for justice.

 

[Michaelismyname]

methinks you have changed the topic to avoid the point .
and may i ask - what are you speaking of ? wheres the judgment ?, have i held another to trial and declared a verdict in regard to their life ? -nope.

if i say adultery is sin - does that mean i am judging another ?- nope
if i say smoking is a sin -does that mean i am judging another ?- nope .

everything i have said on the topic is based on the meaning of the word sin and
Romans ch 6 .

I used to be a very heavy smoker -i am in judgment of no one lol.God set me free in a single day.
Thank God there is grace and mercy ,which rejoice over justice .

 

[candle glow]

methinks you have changed the topic to avoid the point .
and may i ask - what are you speaking of ? wheres the judgment ?, have i held another to trial and declared a verdict in regard to their life ? -nope.

Actually, yes. You made it VERY clear that you are able to know what is in a smoker's (or a fat person's) heart based on their smoking and eating habits. On that basis you felt it your Christian duty to judge the person's actions sinful, and thus the person sinful.

It's really quite petty that you now try to claim that you are not judging the person at all. Of COURSE you are judging the person; that's what judgments based on outward appearances are all about.

everything i have said on the topic is based on the meaning of the word sin and
Romans ch 6 .

Yeah, that's exactly what's wrong with your argument. I've repeatedly tried to get you to think about what Jesus said regarding your judgments based on outward appearances and you repeatedly ignore them, except for one reference about knowing flase teachers by their fruit.

And yet, the irony is that you are one of the people MOST likely to miss genuine sincerity because you can't see past a person's outward appearnce like smoking or body weight to listen to what they actually have to say or how they act towards others.

Why would you bother to listen to what a smoker or a fatso has to say when you are already convinced the peson is a sinner?

I used to be a very heavy smoker -i am in judgment of no one lol.God set me free in a single day.
Thank God there is grace and mercy ,which rejoice over justice .

It's a common tactic by the self righteous to use false humility to cover their judgements, as though they are not really making judgments at all. You used to be a smoker therefore you are not judging other smokers when you say their actions are a sin?

Total rubbish. Whehter you were previously a smoker or not does not change the fact that your judgment is based on outward appearances and NOT what is in the person's heart.

The best you can do is to say that smoking CAN be a sin, but to come right out and say that all smoking in any circumstance is always a sin is just plain stupid and totally against what Jesus said about NOT judging based on outward appearances.

 

[Michaelismyname]

Actually, yes. You made it VERY clear that you are able to know what is in a smoker's (or a fat person's) heart based on their smoking and eating habits. On that basis you felt it your Christian duty to judge the person's actions sinful, and thus the person sinful.insert -I said a person outward action is fruit of their inner self - but i'm quoting the lord Jesus (paraphrased) is the Lord Jesus wrong ?

It's really quite petty that you now try to claim that you are not judging the person at all. insert I do not Now claim that - i have always maintained that- as it is true - i have made no judgment of any individual -having only declared an action(not person)to be sinful. Of COURSE you are judging the person; that's what judgments based on outward appearances are all about.and again - this is debunked already



Yeah, that's exactly what's wrong with your argument. I've repeatedly tried to get you to think about what Jesus said regarding your judgments based on outward appearances and you repeatedly ignore them, except for one reference about knowing flase teachers(i never mentioned false teachers - you keep adding bits in willy nilly ) by their fruit.

And yet, the irony is that you are one of the people MOST likely to miss genuine sincerity because you can't see past a person's outward appearnce like smoking or body weight to listen to what they actually have to say or how they act towards others.(your judging me lol)how can you say im am such a person you know nothing about me

Why would you bother to listen to what a smoker or a fatso has to say when you are already convinced the peson is a sinner? insert("for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God .."- how then can we bother to listen to any one when we are convinced all are sinners ??im not sure how that makes any sense sorry



It's a common tactic by the self righteous to use false humility to cover their judgements, as though they are not really making judgments at all. You used to be a smoker therefore you are not judging other smokers when you say their actions are a sin? correct- i am declaring condemnation on no one

Total rubbish. Whehter you were previously a smoker or not does not change the fact that your judgment is based on outward appearances and NOT what is in the person's heart.have covered this - saying it over and over wont make it true - its not

The best you can do is to say that smoking CAN be a sin, but to come right out and say that all smoking in any circumstance is always a sin is just plain stupid and totally against what Jesus said about NOT judging based on outward appearances.

except i never said any such thing - i said smoking is a sin - in that it is missing the mark and i wont advice anyone in any other way, for if i err i will err in guiding people away from an addictive habit that gratifies the flesh to their harm . it is important to maintain a clarity of message rather then an uncertain trumpet sound . and i would rather err in guiding them away the err in causing them to stumble - for it would be better if a millstone were hung about my neck if i spoke in a manner that causes another to stumble into sin and be then bound by it .

 

[candle glow]

whatever michael. Good luck with all your "being fat and smoking ciggys is a sin" doctrines.

I'm sure you'll reach a lot of people who don't already agree with you.

 

[Michaelismyname]

whatever michael. Good luck with all your "being fat and smoking ciggys is a sin" doctrines.

I'm sure you'll reach a lot of people who don't already agree with you.

umm ,you do realize that is neither my doctrine nor me your quoting ?

 

[candle glow]

The doctrine in question is "being fat and smoking cigs is a sin". You say that is not your doctrine I am quoting.

Are you saying that Jesus DID tell us to judge a peson as sinful if they are far, or if they smoke cigs? Can you show some evidence for that?\

I know, I know, you've got your proof texts, where Jesus talks about knowing people by their fruits and Paul talks about the heart etc...

But then again, people have been known to use the Bible to prove the righteousness of slavery, too.

What's really need is a genuine, honest examination of what Jesus thought was really important.

For example, you talk about "addictions". You suggest smoking as one such sin and agree with another who claims that being "fat" is another such sin.

But Jesus didn't anything against either of those issues. In fact, he said it's NOT what goes into our bodies that makes us unclean, but what comes out of our hearts that makes us unclean, and he listed several examples of that. You've avoided that point in every post you've made. I dare you to show me any post where you directly deal with that verse in the context of what I've been saying about it.

But, anyway, back to addictions. I'll pose the same argument to you as I did to sunny. What about addiction to money? Jesus said we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other, and yet, the majority of the world believes we will die without those little bits of paper and metal.

Is it really true that we will die without money, michael? Will food really stop growing? Will rain stop falling? Of course not.

But what if I ask, "will people stop working"? Well, that's a different story, isn't it? Almost certainly, people WILL stop working if they don't get paid for their work.

But, why is that? Why should money stop people from helping one another? Could it be that they've become addicted to believing that money makes the world go round and therefore the world will come to an end if they stop working for money?

Your arguments about smoking cigs and being fat become so completely laughable and petty when compared to what Jesus said about the real addiction of man.

But that's the point of hypocrisy and self righteousness, isn't it? That is precisely why people like to judge outward appearances; because they never need to deal with what's happening inside their own spirit.

Anyway, for the sake of anyone looking on I've responded to your post and not because I believe for one second that you are interested in anything more than petty faults you can spot in others.

 

[Michaelismyname]

i said smoking is a sin - in that it is missing the mark(the meaning of the word sin is "to miss the mark " and that it is Self gratification of the flesh . no one has been judged.
and i wont advice anyone in any other way, for if i err i will err in guiding people away from an addictive habit that gratifies the flesh to their harm . it is important to maintain a clarity of message rather then an uncertain trumpet sound . and i would rather err in guiding them away then err in causing them to stumble - for it would be better if a millstone were hung about my neck if i spoke in a manner that causes another to stumble into sin and be then bound by it .

 

[Michaelismyname]

Smoking and chewing are the equivalent of being fat/overweight or eating candy etc. It is disregarding your temple/body and opening yourself up to addiction. No More No less.

see .. not my words .please cease from being misleading. the last reply above is now the summary of all i have said and the only reply i will now give.

we have reached an impasse of communication - it happens sometimes we are yet to be perfected . its ok

forgive me if my words at any time have been misunderstood or have offended you. there has been no intent to do so.
God bless you greatly in Christ Jesus and more so then ever he has blessed me

 

[candle glow]

This is what "if not for Grace" said:

Smoking and chewing are the equivalent of being fat/overweight or eating candy etc. It is disregarding your temple/body and opening yourself up to addiction. No More No less.

This was your immediate response (post #64):

yes .it is really that simple.

You clearly agreed with what she said, yet now you make it sound as though you are ashamed of what she said, because you say they are "not my words".

So, how have I misrepresented you? See this is what happens when people trip off into judging others based on outward appearances; they get all confused.

forgive me if my words at any time have been misunderstood or have offended you. there has been no intent to do so.

Were your words offensive or not? And if they were, isn't it your responsibility to apologize rather than putting the burden on me to fix the tension by asking me to forgive you?

If they were not offensive, then why would I need to forgive you?

More confusion.

Anyway, it seems you also want to run away from being accountable for your words. Well, whatever. But for the sake of anyone looking on, I feel it's still worth exposing WHY your position is self righteous.

for if i err i will err in guiding people away from an addictive habit that gratifies the flesh to their harm .

You talk about "gratifying the flesh" but your criteria is inconsistent and selective at best. You also mentioned food earlier, but then you didn't clarify for us what food gratifies the flesh and what food does not.

I was talking earlier with someone about the "fat" comment which you supported, and this person said that thin people can sometimes be self righteous by judging the gluttony of fat people while hiding their own gluttony behind their slender figures.

See, you don't need to be fat to be a glutton, or to "satisfy the desires of the flesh" with food. But, because your judgments are based on outward appearances, you don't see what's in a persons heart; you only see their outward appearance.

You didn't object to the "fat" comment like I did, because it made sense to you. "If someone is fat they must be guilty of satisfying the desires of the flesh". You don't consider what is in the heart because you can't see past the outside.

You do the same with ciggy smoking but this is what Jesus had to say about judging the outward appearance:

JN 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

But does that make any difference to you? Probably not. You've stubbornly declared that you'll never change your mind about judging the outward appearance.

I even suggested a compromise by saying that ciggy smoking CAN be a sin (based on the motivations within the person's heart), as opposed to declaring that all ciggy smoking is a sin all the time in any context just because it is "harmful" to the body.

But you refused to even consider that. Once again, motivations are cast aside in favor of judging the outward appearance (i.e. harm to the physical body).

"Harm" to the physical body becomes the standard of judgment, but because there are many things that you willingly do in life which you know causes harm to your body, you become a hypocrite. Breathing in car fumes, when you could wear a gas mask to prevent that harm, is one example of this.

Although both issues fit the criteria you've listed for it being a sin, (ie. it harms the body) you only see one as a sin while the other is not. Why? If you really believed this whole "harm to the body" thing, you would wear a gas mask to "protect your temple"

And so the reality is shown that your judgment of ciggy smoking is based on the outward appearance only and not a genuine conviction to protect the temple. As a result your judgment is self righteous.

 

[Michaelismyname]

the summary of all i have said and the only reply i will now give.

i said

smoking is a sin - in that it is missing the mark(the meaning of the word sin is "to miss the mark " and that it is Self gratification of the flesh . no one has been judged.
and i wont advice anyone in any other way, for if i err i will err in guiding people away from an addictive habit that gratifies the flesh to their harm . it is important to maintain a clarity of message rather then an uncertain trumpet sound . and i would rather err in guiding them away then err in causing them to stumble - for it would be better if a millstone were hung about my neck if i spoke in a manner that causes another to stumble into sin and be then bound by it .

 

[candle glow]

What you are doing now is sticking your head in the sand. Just repeating yourself over and over again while ignoring legitimate challenges to your reasoning is nothing more than religious pride.

You accused me of misrepresenting you, but when I listed hard evidence to show that I had not misrepresented you, you just ignore it.

That is not sincere discussion. That is religious pride.

 

[Michaelismyname]

..... the last reply above is now the summary of all i have said and the only reply i will now give.

we have reached an impasse of communication - it happens sometimes we are yet to be perfected . its ok

forgive me if my words at any time have been misunderstood or have offended you. there has been no intent to do so.
God bless you greatly in Christ Jesus and more so then ever he has blessed me

------------------
please feel free to continue to address the topic but stop attacking the person.
-----------
the summary of all i have said and the only reply i will now give.
i said
smoking is a sin - in that it is missing the mark(the meaning of the word sin is "to miss the mark " and that it is Self gratification of the flesh . no one has been judged.
and i wont advice anyone in any other way, for if i err i will err in guiding people away from an addictive habit that gratifies the flesh to their harm . it is important to maintain a clarity of message rather then an uncertain trumpet sound . and i would rather err in guiding them away then err in causing them to stumble - for it would be better if a millstone were hung about my neck if i spoke in a manner that causes another to stumble into sin and be then bound by it .

 

[candle glow]

please feel free to continue to address the topic but stop attacking the person.

except, you've got no evidence that I've attacked you. You tried that before, by saying that I misrepresented you, but then I showed actual, hard, legitimate evidence that I did not misrepresent you.

Why not deal with the evidence, instead of making more accusations?

Is this really the testimony people are supposed to believe when making a decision on whether or not to trust your judgment?

the summary of all i have said and the only reply i will now give.

Yeah yeah I know, and on your death bed you'll probably still be clinging to the same religious pride, genuinely believing that you did God a service by judging the outward appearance and teaching others to do the same.

You see, no one ever said that you have to teach people that smoking cigs is okay. We only said that you should consider that it may not always be a sin because it's an outward appearance, like washing or not washing hands before eating.

Only God knows what's in the person's heart. Of course we can SEE what is in a person's heart, but then again we have to ask ourselves if we can really judge someone as guilty of sinful actions if they eat with unwashed hands and get sick as a result.

Or, you have to be willing to judge someone a sinner for being fat and a non-sinner for being thin. Are you willing to make that judgment, Micheal. Well, actually, you already have, in a way, when you agreed that being fat is the equivalent to smoking, which is the equivalent to sin.

But, if you are not willing to make that judgment then why bother to argue that it is a sin at all? Why argue that a particular action is a sin, but then refuse to say so when someone is acting on that sin? What, because you feel it's wrong to judge?

But then again, Jesus didn't teach against judgment. He taught against UNfair judgment, like what people do when they judge the outward appearance and pretend to do so on God's behalf.

It is the motivation that we should be looking at, and not the outward appearance. While you are bust dismissing the smoker or the fat person as a sinner, you are likely to miss what it is that God is really trying to tell you because if you are so quick to defend judgment of the outward appearance on those two particular issues, then how many OTHER outward appearances are you also basing your judgments on?