Smoke Cigs/Dip A Sin?

[candle glow]

Hi barefoot. Thanks for sharing about your smoking habits. I don't see a problem with what you've shared.

This argument about "harming the temple" really needs to be taken into context with how the argument was originally presented.

The argument comes from Paul, who was talking about sexually immorality. He was talking about how fornication and adultery defiles the temple of God (our bodies).

But, self righteous health gurus now use that teaching to justify their own health teachings as doctrinal morality. While they preach that "harm to the body" is immoral when it comes to drinking, smoking, or eating specific kinds of foods, they themselves allow many kinds of harm to their own bodies, but they overlook it because it is convenient to do so.

The end result is a self righteous kind of "feel good" teaching where some people feel better about their spiritual status by dragging others down on superficial issues.

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty on spiritual defilement, lets talk about the root of all evil...the love of money.

How about it, sunny? Wanna get your hands really dirty by discussing the real problems of greed and hypocrisy, or do you still wanna "play church" where the "bad guys" are discerned by all the cliche outward appearances decided on by popular vote from the stuck-up congregations of the respectable church world?

 

[thesunisout]

Sounds like word salad, sunny. Keep it simple for the rest of us morons, okay?

Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com is simple enough.

No, I didn't say that at all. I asked you if there are circumstances in which you knowingly pollute your body. Unless you wear a gas mask every time you walk down the street, then my question remains valid.

Is it religious pride that prevents you from accepting such an obvious conclusion?

You did say that though, by equivocating the issue. You are questioning the idea that polluting your temple is immoral by saying unless we take extreme and ridiculous steps to safeguard our bodies, everyone is guilty of the same crime. However, Gods word prevents us from reaching such a conclusion, because we are called to go *everywhere* to preach the gospel. It doesn't matter what the level of pollution is.

That is a lie, sunny. You CAN "help it". I even gave you two options (though there are sure to be others, too). You can avoid all areas where vehicles operate OR you can wear a gas mask. You choose NOT to apply these options because they are either impractical or inconvenient for you. But they do still exist as options. The fact is, you choose to ignore them and as a result you willingly allow your body to be polluted.

No, you can't help it. There are over 75000 undocumented chemicals in the United States alone. There are fire retardants sprayed on to your furniture, there are chemicals in the water supply, the food supply; they're everywhere. You would have to live on the moon to avoid pollution.

See how easy it is to cast judgment? I am very much right in what I'm saying, and yet, you sense there is still something wrong with my conclusion, isn't it?

What I see is someone avoiding the facts and inventing fallacious arguments to justify sin.

Because there is nothing lost to you in casting judgment against smoking. It's easy for you simply because you have no interest in smoking. But, if you are questioned on willingly breathing in toxic fumes from motor vehicles, you suddenly feel a need to justify such pollutants, because it would be inconvenient for you to take steps to avoid them.

I don't justify anything. There is no way to avoid pollutants in the atmosphere and obey Gods word at the same time. What we do have a choice over is what we put into our bodies, which is why cigarette smoking is sinful.

And yet, you defile the temple in many ways, and you justify it on the basis that God supposedly told you to by saying "go into all the world to preach the gospel".

He didn't "supposedly" say that, He definitively said it in Gods word. Are you claiming this isn't what God commanded us to do?

Again, you equivocate. You never answer the question of whether smoking cigarettes is compatible with the standards God has given us, but rather you bring up this fallacious argument as a way to make them irrelevant. The fact remains that you cannot fit cigarette smoking into this verse:

Romans 12:1-2

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

Yet, if God told you to quit your job making money so that you CAN have time to go into all the world preaching the gospel and working for love, you would argue that you would die without money and therefore could NOT "go into all the world preaching the gospel".

What a hypocrite you are. You justify your self righteousness based on a teaching that you are not willing to even apply in the first place.

BTW, sunny. Saying "god bless you" on the side, while working for money is NOT "preaching the gospel" according to what Jesus taught.

Do you know what a strawman argument is? Please educate yourself because that is what this is. Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You didn't answer the question, sunny. Do you believe we will die if we stop working for money, and start working for love? Yes or no?

God personally took care of the needs of the Israelites for 40 years in a desert. I have no doubt that God will take care of all of my needs, whatever He calls me to do.

I'd rather work with a sincere smoker than a self righteous heath nut any day. I'd bet my soul on that.

I wouldn't bet my soul on anything beyond the assurance of my salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. I'd also rather work with someone who obeys Gods word and is honest enough with himself not to twist scripture to justify his addictions.

Again, you fail to address the facts which prove that cigarette smoking is definitively a sin. I'll repeat them:

I also noticed you didn't address the fact that a smoking christian is a stumbling block for both believers and unbelievers alike. There is also the fact that a smoking Christian is under the power of their addiction and thus is living a spiritually defeated life.

 

[xdunlapx]

.......
So I think intentional harm to our body is a sin.

.....

I don't see an addiction such as smoking as "intentional harm". You don't do it to harm your body, you do it due to an addiction. A habit. Yes when you are smoking your first cigarette as a kid or young adult you are doing something that is harming your body but you didn't pick up the cigarette and say "yes I think I will harm my body just for the heck of it, might as well do it right now!"

I was a smoker, I now use an electronic cigarette so I am doing much LESS harm to my body now than I ever was when I was smoking 1.5 to 2 packs per day for the 8 years I smoked. But it's been proven that those with mental illness self medicate not only with alcohol but with cigarettes. Somehow the nicotine in the cigarette calms down ones brain if they are mentally ill. I do have a strong mental illness, schizoaffective disorder (basically Bipolar AND schizophrenia together). So I would rather do the lesser of two evils, which would be "smoking" an electronic cigarette which only has nicotine in it and other food-grade additives. I'v ebeen using it for 2.5 years and I have no health problems now as a result of my "smoking". My COPD is mostly gone, I have no smokers cough and I don't cough when I laugh anymore. I wake up without phlegm flying everywhere in my lungs and I still get my nicotine.. Nicotine has not been found to be cancerous, though it is addictive. But if you already have a nicotine addiction, then it doesn't matter.

I believe God gave us plant of all kinds, including Marijuana. Though I don't think smoking it day in day out is good, especially since it has been known to cause a form of schizophrenia associated with Marijuana. But God gave us these plants. He created them. So to say smoking one of them is bad or a sin is wrong in my opinion. He created us with Free Will and we chose to smoke certain plants because it can cause mental changes. So anything we ingest can cause mental changes. I don't feel smoking or using dip is a sin. Though that's just my personal beliefs.

We don't usually do something that will harm us because of that fact. We do them to try new things, to break away from the control of our parents, etc. Now I do believe that using Heroin or Cocaine is sinful only because we all know that it kills and we created those substances, God didn't. Though opium was created in Poppys but we as a human race created those bad drugs from God-given things. I do see that as immoral and a sin. But you can also look things from that perspetive such as medical drugs like antibiotics, psychotic medications and medications to control blood pressure. But I feel that God allowed medical doctors to exist, scientists, too, and they created those drugs for the betterment of the human race. So no that is not sinful.

Just my spiel. Hope someone got something out of it. Thanks for reading.

 

[candle glow]

You are questioning the idea that polluting your temple is immoral by saying unless we take extreme and ridiculous steps to safeguard our bodies, everyone is guilty of the same crime.

I am questioning the idea of smoking being immoral because of what Jesus said about it. He said it's not what goes into our bodies that makes us unclean, but what comes out of the mouth, through the heart. The context was food, but the spirit behind the teaching applies to smoking, too (and drinking).

it's similar to what Jesus said about how hypocrites like to make the outside appearance to be clean, but neglect their spiritual condition (the inside).

I raised the example of breathing in toxic fumes to highlight your hypocrisy and question the logic you were using (i.e. it's immoral because it's bad for the body).

You still don't seem to get it and that's what's so frustrating about hypocrisy. Those shouting the loudest about how others are wrong can't see just how blind they really are.

You willingly breathe in toxic fumes which harm your body, even though you COULD wear a gas mask to prevent your "temple" from being harmed, but you don't. You see that as ridiculous, even though it's the SAME ISSUE. Smoking ciggs and breathing in car fumes both involve taking smoke into the lungs.

Because you've already discarded motives as a factor in discerning if smoking is a sin or not, the difference in motives behind smoking a cigg or breathing in car fumes is irrelevant in your case.

You are fine to breathe car smoke into your lungs (even though you could wear a mask to prevent it) but you say it's a sin to breath ciggy smoke. You are a hypocrite, according to your own logic, sunny.

That's the problem with hypocrites. Their standards are so strict that they invariably cannot keep up with them even in their own behavior and choices, yet they refuse to see that. It only matters how others violate their standards.

However, Gods word prevents us from reaching such a conclusion, because we are called to go *everywhere* to preach the gospel. It doesn't matter what the level of pollution is.

Yet, even knowing there is pollution which will harm your "temple" is not enough to cause you to wear a gas mask to prevent your temple from being polluted. You could wear a mask, but you willingly choose not to because it would be inconvenient for you.

You willingly and knowingly breathe in toxic smoke, yet you don't see that as a sin on your part, while at the same time you view ciggy smoking as a sin.

Hypocrite...

It's especially bad that you use "go into all the world" to hide behind, too, because it's almost certainly a command which you do not obey. You can't go into all the world to preach the gospel while you are chained down to a job working for money because you are afraid that you'll die without it.

That's why Jesus said we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other. This is another problem with hypocrisy. Hypocrites pick and choose teachings which suit their arguments. They champion a proof text which they feel supports their case, while disregarding other verses which do not support their case as "strawman" verses.

No, you can't help it. There are over 75000 undocumented chemicals in the United States alone. There are fire retardants sprayed on to your furniture, there are chemicals in the water supply, the food supply; they're everywhere. You would have to live on the moon to avoid pollution.

Perhaps not totally. But remember, I'm not the one who is saying that breathing in toxic fumes is immoral, you are. I am simply asking you to consider that "harmful smoke" is not limited to ciggys. Can you do that, sunny? Is your logic able to support options which fall outside your limited point of view?

Wear a gas mask, sunny, and you can at least avoid some of the immorality that results from breathing in fumes which harm your body as you walk down the street.

But it's like you don't even take your own logic seriously. You say it would be ridiculous to even try avoiding car fumes, at the same time you say it is immoral to willingly breathe in harmful smoke.

Hypocrite...

I don't justify anything. There is no way to avoid pollutants in the atmosphere and obey Gods word at the same time.

You accused me of avoiding the facts.

But here you are, doing the very thing you accused me of. The fruit of your arguments show that you are very much acting in a self righteous way here, sunny.

Is there really "no way" to avoid pollutants? "No way" at all? Really? Are you being honest with yourself? Are you being honest with the rest of us here on this thread? "No way"?

I gave TWO options (out of many). One was to just stay away from all streets where motor vehicles operate. Although it is an extreme option it IS still an option.

I also mentioned wearing a gas mask. This option allows you the freedom to visit any street while avoiding toxic exhaust fumes. Sure it would be inconvenient to wear a mask in that kind of situation, but hey, it IS a "way", isn't it?

I'm calling you out on your dishonesty, sunny. You blatantly avoided the issue here by saying there is "no way" to avoid polluting your temple.

You are hard on others (smokers) and soft on yourself (you can breathe in smoke but they can't).

Classic hypocrisy.

 

[Rubiks]

we can see what is sin and what is not by the effects it has on people's lives. if it is harmful, it is probably sin. (There are exeptions to this rule however) So yes, smoking/dipping is a sin despite it not being mentioned in the bible.

Remember, God is your loving parent and he knows what's best for you.

 

[thesunisout]

etc

I had a whole reply typed here, but the Lord put this scripture on my heart:

Titus 3:9

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Nice talking with you. God bless.

 

[Michaelismyname]

oh my =- when ever i see folk dissecting posts into separate sections and answering separate sections ..all i see is argument brewing into storm . i think you can over-think another's post . I try (do not always succeed) to see the over all point a person is making and reply to that .

 

[Michaelismyname]

I don't see an addiction such as smoking as "intentional harm". You don't do it to harm your body, you do it due to an addiction. A habit. Yes when you are smoking your first cigarette as a kid or young adult you are doing something that is harming your body but you didn't pick up the cigarette and say "yes I think I will harm my body just for the heck of it, might as well do it right now!"

I was a smoker, I now use an electronic cigarette so I am doing much LESS harm to my body now than I ever was when I was smoking 1.5 to 2 packs per day for the 8 years I smoked. But it's been proven that those with mental illness self medicate not only with alcohol but with cigarettes. Somehow the nicotine in the cigarette calms down ones brain if they are mentally ill. I do have a strong mental illness, schizoaffective disorder (basically Bipolar AND schizophrenia together). So I would rather do the lesser of two evils, which would be "smoking" an electronic cigarette which only has nicotine in it and other food-grade additives. I'v ebeen using it for 2.5 years and I have no health problems now as a result of my "smoking". My COPD is mostly gone, I have no smokers cough and I don't cough when I laugh anymore. I wake up without phlegm flying everywhere in my lungs and I still get my nicotine.. Nicotine has not been found to be cancerous, though it is addictive. But if you already have a nicotine addiction, then it doesn't matter.

I believe God gave us plant of all kinds, including Marijuana. Though I don't think smoking it day in day out is good, especially since it has been known to cause a form of schizophrenia associated with Marijuana. But God gave us these plants. He created them. So to say smoking one of them is bad or a sin is wrong in my opinion. He created us with Free Will and we chose to smoke certain plants because it can cause mental changes. So anything we ingest can cause mental changes. I don't feel smoking or using dip is a sin. Though that's just my personal beliefs.

We don't usually do something that will harm us because of that fact. We do them to try new things, to break away from the control of our parents, etc. Now I do believe that using Heroin or Cocaine is sinful only because we all know that it kills and we created those substances, God didn't. Though opium was created in Poppys but we as a human race created those bad drugs from God-given things. I do see that as immoral and a sin. But you can also look things from that perspetive such as medical drugs like antibiotics, psychotic medications and medications to control blood pressure. But I feel that God allowed medical doctors to exist, scientists, too, and they created those drugs for the betterment of the human race. So no that is not sinful.

Just my spiel. Hope someone got something out of it. Thanks for reading.

hi - sometimes we do not allow ourselves to see what is there to be seen - consider this .how many children/teens (outside the weird exception) were given permission to smoke (anything) ? So if you look closer you find a sin began the action.. the sin being disobedience and rebellion . from that has grown an attitude of self deception to justify what they then continue to do ..leading to thoughts and attitudes in opposition to the Spirit of God being held on to and promoted

 

[candle glow]

I had a whole reply typed here, but the Lord put this scripture on my heart:

Titus 3:9

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Nice talking with you. God bless.

I think you did something like this last time we chatted. The lord "put it on your heart" to ignore your hypocritical arguments and that dishonesty I pointed out? I posted actual, written evidence that you were being dishonest, sunny. Its not the lord telling you to run away from dealing with that.

oh my =- when ever i see folk dissecting posts into separate sections and answering separate sections ..all i see is argument brewing into storm . i think you can over-think another's post . I try (do not always succeed) to see the over all point a person is making and reply to that .

Ok Michecal, I'm one of those people who responds to what others actually write. Sometimes I even deal with specific issues they bring up, point by point. To me, that is part of genuine discussion. You call it dissecting and arguing, I call it paying attention and discerning.

However, I'm willing to hear your advice on how to discuss issues with others without addressing the specific issues they bring up. If I see someone promoting hypocrisy and self righteousness, how should I go about challenging them, without using their words as evidence to support my conclusions?

Or, are you suggesting that I should not challenge them and just ignore it because it's bad to "argue"?

 

[thesunisout]

I think you did something like this last time we chatted. The lord "put it on your heart" to ignore your hypocritical arguments and that dishonesty I pointed out? I posted actual, written evidence that you were being dishonest, sunny. Its not the lord telling you to run away from dealing with that.



Ok Michecal, I'm one of those people who responds to what others actually write. Sometimes I even deal with specific issues they bring up, point by point. To me, that is part of genuine discussion. You call it dissecting and arguing, I call it paying attention and discerning.

However, I'm willing to hear your advice on how to discuss issues with others without addressing the specific issues they bring up. If I see someone promoting hypocrisy and self righteousness, how should I go about challenging them, without using their words as evidence to support my conclusions?

Or, are you suggesting that I should not challenge them and just ignore it because it's bad to "argue"?

Actually you were just getting more and more disrespectful, and it's obvious your goal here is to win the argument and not to come to the truth about Gods word. The Lord did bring that scripture to mind, and so I am going to avoid the petty argument you keep trying to drag me into. I've made my points, and if choose to believe something else, feel free. That's between you and the Lord.

 

[candle glow]

we can see what is sin and what is not by the effects it has on people's lives. if it is harmful, it is probably sin. (There are exeptions to this rule however) So yes, smoking/dipping is a sin despite it not being mentioned in the bible.

Hi Rubiks. There is a difference between health rules and moral rules. Can you clarify what you mean by "exceptions"?

Smoking and drinking as a sin in themselves is a bit like "four letter words". It's not that God declared them to be wrong, but that people have come to believe they are wrong through cultural conditioning.

While man looks on the outward appearance, God does not. We need to be able to see past the cultural conditioning and outward appearances and look at what the motivation is behind these issues.

Making a rule that "if it's harmful to the body then it's a sin" simply is not able to account for the spirit's authority to decide what is right and wrong between an individual and God in their personal relationship.

 

[candle glow]

I believe God gave us plant of all kinds, including Marijuana. Though I don't think smoking it day in day out is good, especially since it has been known to cause a form of schizophrenia associated with Marijuana. But God gave us these plants. He created them. So to say smoking one of them is bad or a sin is wrong in my opinion. He created us with Free Will and we chose to smoke certain plants because it can cause mental changes. So anything we ingest can cause mental changes. I don't feel smoking or using dip is a sin. Though that's just my personal beliefs.

Hi dunlap. Thanks for sharing those thoughts.

I think a problem comes when people try to make black/white rules about what is a sin and what is not, especially when Jesus was so clear about how man desires to judge by outward appearances whereas God looks at the heart.

Jesus said his teachings are the same as the holy spirit and that the holy spirit's job is to remind us of the things Jesus taught us. He said the spirit is like the wind, we cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes; it blows where ever it wants to.

It's like that with a lot of different issues. For one person, smoking could be sinful, if he feels God wants him to stop and yet he continues to smoke, while another person may feel no pangs of conscience at all about it.

A non religious person could be sharing a genuine message from God and self righteous people who look at outward appearances (like smoking or drinking) are likely to miss the message because they can't get past the smoking part.

On the other hand, the reverse is also true. If you have a genuine message to preach, but people get turned off (whether rightly or wrongly) because of your smoking, then is your freedom to smoke really helping you as a Christian?

In both cases you've got self righteous Christians and insensitive Christians, so who's right and who's wrong?

 

[Michaelismyname]

I think you did something like this last time we chatted. The lord "put it on your heart" to ignore your hypocritical arguments and that dishonesty I pointed out? I posted actual, written evidence that you were being dishonest, sunny. Its not the lord telling you to run away from dealing with that.



Ok Michecal, I'm one of those people who responds to what others actually write. Sometimes I even deal with specific issues they bring up, point by point. To me, that is part of genuine discussion. You call it dissecting and arguing, I call it paying attention and discerning.

However, I'm willing to hear your advice on how to discuss issues with others without addressing the specific issues they bring up. If I see someone promoting hypocrisy and self righteousness, how should I go about challenging them, without using their words as evidence to support my conclusions?

Or, are you suggesting that I should not challenge them and just ignore it because it's bad to "argue"?

sure i'll advice but only as light suggestion
- you could start a separate thread to deal with the sideline topic that comes up -
or you could go into a private conversation with them to clarify with them one on one what they meant .
These are some options .of course in a private conversation you wont have an audience some people don't mind that.
I have asked folk questions-in private- as to their particular stance on issues ,already knowing that i would disagree , but i did not offer argument i simple thanked them for clarifying their stance .
we don't have to "win" here .

the essence of this thread is in regard to smoking being sinful .
well ,in the essence of love and obedience to God in all his word from the heart , it is wrongful and there really isn't justification for advising otherwise.
but would certainly be helpful to share testimony of how we got free fro being under bondage to that which is not the Spirit of God for in that state a person is not walking in the freedom that the lord Jesus has bought them by his blood .

I used to smoke 2 packs a day (when i didn't have a joint in my mouth) -it was wrong, i knew it was wrong ,in my heart i knew it was wrong and if your conscience condemns you ,you know it is wrong . when i stopped i stopped in a single day and never smoked again . because when the lord does the work in your heart it is a work that stands the test . when we try to free ourselves we succeed for a season sometimes but ultimately fail when the test comes .there is absolute freedom from smoking cigarettes and it begins in the same way as everything else in God .. belief faith and obedience

 

[candle glow]

hi Micheal,

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. I'm going to respond to what you've said and I'm going to quote you so that it's very clear why I am saying what I say. I hope you don't mind. I personally view it as good discussion practices to quote people.

you could start a separate thread to deal with the sideline topic that comes up -
or you could go into a private conversation with them to clarify with them one on one what they meant

Sunny and I were discussing the actual topic of the thread; it wasn't side line at all.

If sunny is dishonest and hypocritical in public, then I feel the challenge needs to be public as well, so that others looking on can see the issues clearly. Jesus often rebuked the pharisees openly, and loudly, when they were being hypocrites.

However, I don't disregard your option about discussing issues in private. I am currently involved in a semi-private discussion (on my profile page). I just feel that this particular situation with sunny is a different context to what you are suggesting about the benefits of private discussion.

the essence of this thread is in regard to smoking being sinful .

Yes, and that's exactly what I challenged sunny on. In fact, I listed actual evidence to show that he was being hypcritical and even a bit dishonest in one case. I'm surprised you chose to comment on the frivolities of "arguing" in general, rather than addressing those specific issues, especially since they did exactly address the topic.

It may be that, because you and sunny are taking the same position in this discussion, that you chose to ignore my challenges to him in preference to challenging me for challenging him. It's just a suspicion.

well ,in the essence of love and obedience to God in all his word from the heart , it is wrongful and there really isn't justification for advising otherwise.

Sentences like "the essence of love and obedience to God in all his word from the heart" sounds very beautiful, but that beauty is lost when we take God's job away from him and declare what is in the hearts of others.

You simply cannot say what is in a person's heart based on who smokes and who does not, because smoking is an outward appearance like the kind of food we eat, or the kind of clothes we wear, or the kind of movies we watch.

The pharisees tried that by criticizing the apostles when they didn't wash their hands before eating. Are you familiar with this story, Michael?

The obvious reason the pharisees made this criticism is because the apostles would certainly be putting dirt onto their food (from their hands) and then into their mouth and from there into the body which COULD be very harmful, depending on what they were touching. Some of them may have even done poos and then not washed before eating.

Scientifically, the pharisees had a point, and yet, Jesus said they were the ones at fault because they were being self righteous; it's not what goes into your body that makes you unclean.

He was talking about something more than the physical, he was talking about the spiritual. It's what comes from the heart that matters. You cannot tell what is in a ciggy smokers heart any more than the pharisees could tell what was in the apostles hearts by not washing their hands before eating.

According to Jesus, a ciggy smoker could be a lot closer to God than the self righteous Christian who condemns the ciggy smoker.

I don't know why you guys keep missing such a basic lesson, but I suspect it's a combination of cultural conditioning and religious pride.

 

[Michaelismyname]

why do you keep repeating that another poster is hypocritical? maybe you misunderstood them or maybe they became frustrated . just forgive them and let it go
-----
i don't think any one is missing any point - just observing it from differing angles .
I would never advice a person to take a habit that potentially enslaves them to it .You are possibly over complicating the issue .
one thing i know for sure .we can choose to smoke or not smoke .
if a person asks the lord Jesus to help them quit .then he will and they will be set free .
if they then continue to do it ,they do it by their own choice .smoking cigarettes is no different to appeasing any other lust or craving of the flesh . if we submit our bodies to following what the flesh desires, then the flesh becomes our master
Romans 6 states it nicely and comprehensibly - and it applies to any area of the flesh.
. When something, like smoking, places someone in bondage then it is not of God -it is of flesh and we are not called to walk after the flesh -But after the Spirit .the two are not compatible . nicotine ,as it leaves the body generates a craving as it departs - this craving is a fleshly distraction. it generates a hindrance between the persons desire to follow the lord Jesus in the spirit and their desire to smoke in the flesh( all the while doing physical damage )
I can never give anyone the slightest hint of encouragement to continue in it.

is it sinful .. ? yes .. it is missing the mark .(like the arrow sinning off target) is it condemnable ?- only once it becomes a direct act of disobedience to the holy Spirit

 

[Michaelismyname]

Hi Michael,



I was questioning the logic of the comment. You said that if God himself doesn't come down out of Heaven to offer someone a ciggy, then it's obviously sinful. At least, that's what it looked like you were saying.

It seems a bit unfair to put smoking in that context, while not doing so for so many other material goods we use/consume in everyday life which are not necessarily good for us.
I agree with you, under the conditions you've listed. If a person feels God is telling him to quit smoking, and he continues anyway, then he is acting against his conscience and that can very easily be a sin.
However, I can't see that smoking in itself is immoral. It sure is unhealthy, but that's not the same as immoral. Depending on the circumstances, I'm almost certain to encourage people to stop smoking, because it's so unhealthy, expensive, and offensive to people in the immediate area.
Also, regarding the conscience, the bible suggests that God is greater even than our conscience. In other words, the problem with a conscience is that it can be trained.
For example, you have someone growing up his whole life believing it is sinful to eat "unclean" food. But then, a situation arises where we are called on to eat with others in order to work with them and teach them, but they eat "unclean" food and our conscience is offended.

What do we do? A similar situation happened to Peter, and God had to come down from Heaven to forcibly tell Peter to go against his conscience regarding eating "unclean food".

something about your post troubled me from the day i read it and I was wondering about it - then it suddenly dawned on me.

can you see it ?

 

[candle glow]

why do you keep repeating that another poster is hypocritical?

I already said why I feel that sunny was being a hypocrite. I even gave detailed evidence, but rather than consider that evidence carefully you chose to criticize me for "arguing point by point". Why? As a Christian, don't you care that someone is being a hypocrite, and even using Jesus as an excuse to do so?

maybe you misunderstood them or maybe they became frustrated . just forgive them and let it go

Again, I gave reasons for why it was not a misunderstanding, using actual quotes as evidence.

Also, if sunny was not being a hypocrite, what need would I have to forgive him? Or, are you saying that I should forgive him for a misunderstanding, or that I should forgive him for a difference of opinion?

But then again, he said this was not an opinion issue. In fact both of you made it very clear that you feel smoking is a definite sin.

Your understanding of forgiveness sounds very confusing to me.

I would never advice a person to take a habit that potentially enslaves them to it .You are possibly over complicating the issue .

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've never advocated that anyone should smoke, and I don't recall that anyone on this thread did either. It seems you've misunderstood something.

I can never give anyone the slightest hint of encouragement to continue in it.

The question was never about whether someone should be encouraged to smoke or not. The question was about whether it is a sin to smoke.

if a person asks the lord Jesus to help them quit .then he will and they will be set free .
if they then continue to do it ,they do it by their own choice .smoking cigarettes is no different to appeasing any other lust or craving of the flesh

Still doesn't change the fact that you can't know what's in a persons heart just because they smoke or don't smoke, much like the pharisees did not know what was in the apostles hearts because they did not wash their hands.

The pharisees were wrong about their self righteous stance on hand washing, and you are wrong about ciggy smoking, because you make the same argument they did.

 

[Michaelismyname]

I already said why I feel that sunny was being a hypocrite. I even gave detailed evidence, but rather than consider that evidence carefully you chose to criticize me for "arguing point by point". Why? As a Christian, don't you care that someone is being a hypocrite, and even using Jesus as an excuse to do so?



Again, I gave reasons for why it was not a misunderstanding, using actual quotes as evidence.

Also, if sunny was not being a hypocrite, what need would I have to forgive him? Or, are you saying that I should forgive him for a misunderstanding, or that I should forgive him for a difference of opinion?

But then again, he said this was not an opinion issue. In fact both of you made it very clear that you feel smoking is a definite sin.

Your understanding of forgiveness sounds very confusing to me. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've never advocated that anyone should smoke, and I don't recall that anyone on this thread did either. It seems you've misunderstood something.

The question was never about whether someone should be encouraged to smoke or not. The question was about whether it is a sin to smoke.



Still doesn't change the fact that you can't know what's in a persons heart just because they smoke or don't smoke, much like the pharisees did not know what was in the apostles hearts because they did not wash their hands.

The pharisees were wrong about their self righteous stance on hand washing, and you are wrong about ciggy smoking, because you make the same argument they did.

well on the surface of it you seem offended by his appearance of hypocritical stance -possible offence displays a probable need to forgive .

And yes we have both declared it is a sin -for different reasons . I use the word sin from the meaning - "to miss" ,as in not hit the target .so no i do not make the same argument they make. i base it fully on romans ch 6 -which you did not address

as for hand washing - seems an odd example . hand washing does not give you lung/throat/eye cancer
and we are able to tell whats in a persons heart- the lord Jesus said ."by their fruits you shall know them".Outward action is evidence of inward standing"

and as for forgiveness - start a new thread lol its a whole other topic and a marvelous one.

(have you ever heard of a book called "hey God" - so long ago, i think that's it's title .she spoke to God by calling out "hey God" (she knew no other way) her husband was an avid smoker he got saved but wouldnt stop . so she prayed . An angel of the lord came before him one day and smacked the smoke from his mouth - he quit after that - it seems God disapproves )

 

[candle glow]

and as for forgiveness - start a new thread lol its a whole other topic and a marvelous one.

Why would I want to start a thread about forgiveness when you are the one who brought it up in the first place?

well on the surface of it you seem offended by his appearance of hypocritical stance -possible offence displays a probable need to forgive .

I didn't "seem" offended; I was clearly offended. I gave reasons to show how sunny was being a hypocrite. I suspect the reason you keep ignoring those reasons is because you don't want to challenge someone who is presenting the same argument as you.

You say "possible" offense, as though it's not possible to know if he really was being offensive. Sounds like you are just ignoring the evidence I presented.

And yes we have both declared it is a sin -for different reasons

Can you explain what the difference is between your reasons for calling it sin and sunny's reasons for calling it sin?

as for hand washing - seems an odd example . hand washing does not give you lung/throat/eye cancer
and we are able to tell whats in a persons heart- the lord Jesus said ."by their fruits you shall know them".Outward action is evidence of inward standing"

Jesus didn't seem to care about the connection between hand washing and cancer. He was addressing the attitudes people take towards judging one another. People like to judge by outward appearances but God sees it differently.

(have you ever heard of a book called "hey God" - so long ago, i think that's it's title .she spoke to God by calling out "hey God" (she knew no other way) her husband was an avid smoker he got saved but wouldnt stop . so she prayed . An angel of the lord came before him one day and smacked the smoke from his mouth - he quit after that - it seems God disapproves )

Assuming the story is true, all it proves is that God is able to speak to individuals. The story does not indicate a rule for all people, which is the same as what I've been saying all along.

It's between God and the individual to decide what is right for them when it comes to health rules.

 

[Michaelismyname]

Why would I want to start a thread about forgiveness when you are the one who brought it up in the first place?



I didn't "seem" offended; I was clearly offended. I gave reasons to show how sunny was being a hypocrite. I suspect the reason you keep ignoring those reasons is because you don't want to challenge someone who is presenting the same argument as you.

You say "possible" offense, as though it's not possible to know if he really was being offensive. Sounds like you are just ignoring the evidence I presented.



Can you explain what the difference is between your reasons for calling it sin and sunny's reasons for calling it sin?



Jesus didn't seem to care about the connection between hand washing and cancer. He was addressing the attitudes people take towards judging one another. People like to judge by outward appearances but God sees it differently.



Assuming the story is true, all it proves is that God is able to speak to individuals. The story does not indicate a rule for all people, which is the same as what I've been saying all along.

It's between God and the individual to decide what is right for them when it comes to health rules.

--ok well since you admit you were clearly offended - then your admitting the need to forgive - (goodness if your going to split the post up so much could you number the points so one can keep track of replying lol)
--i thought you might wish to discuss what forgiveness is all about ,hence the suggestion to start a thread on it -plus it would be a wonderful topic for all to discuss.
--possible offense because i have not read his replies -i just noted you began name calling and that is usually a sign that someone has some how offended some one else.
-- i did explain the difference between me calling it sin and him doing so but for different reason - i said i use the word sin in ,as in - to miss the markand added ,that it is not unto condemnation until it becomes an act of disobedience to the Holy Spirit.
--I see your point abut hand-washing being a matter of judgment, However i have passed no judgment on any one , but i have judged a certain action to be sin ,in that, it misses the mark and is self gratification of the flesh and not following the Spirit (please ref' romans ch 6)
--the story is testimony (just not my own )and again we agree. it only becomes a matter of condemnation in regard to obedience or disobedience to the Holy Spirit .

in fact my original entry to this thread stands -

"Go pray ,worship, sing ,spend ,time with the lord in prayer .. and if while doing so the lord offers you a ciggy - then you will know its ok to do it ."

Not such an illogical argument after all . As you pointed out in your post ,that is exactly what happened to Peter . mind you God did not bodily come down - he gave peter a vision .. and i was referring him offering you a ciggy by the holy Spirit speaking to you ,not bodily coming down to offer you one .