Slavery, a Guide

[Clizby WampusCat]

Agreed. The rest seems unnecessary and superfluous. You are no longer you in heaven anyways. --> No one sins in heaven, regardless of how much 'sin' they committed, prior to heaven.

This is a big issue for me and one I had when I was a christian. God does not want me in heaven, he wants the perfect me, the sinless me. Which is not me at all. It is like telling my kid that I will only love you if you never screw up. God does not love believers he loves the perfect believers.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This seems a bit random. Are you saying that things are just 'bad' just because, or because someone said so, or something like that? Ethical and moral codes for living have reasons behind them, as you know I'm sure there have been many attempts at defining morality in a whole range of different ways. It seems obvious that it would be impossible to build a civilisation if some of the things you mention - disregard for one's parents, murder, theft, adultery - were rampant and not even considered damaging or negative in some way. There would be chaos, I don't see how a society could function like that. Lying is a much more common sin, but again unchecked it weakens the fabric of any relationship or set of relationships. Idolatry is a different issue, more determining of the overall direction of the society, which could be practically useful, or not, or whatever. Slavery however has been part of how nations and whole civilisations have been built - like it or not, there isn't a single major civilisation slave labour hasn't been a part of. We can now afford to see it as wrong and unnecessary in the West, and our societies are wealthy enough that those who cannot support themselves can be supported, and we are no longer living in such a precarious society. In the ancient world the complete destruction of whole communities was not the unusual event it would be today, and even in the world today there are many, many people who under one definition or another live as slaves did in the ancient world. Why do you think that is? What options do you think are available to them? Why is it happening? These are worthwhile questions, worthwhile in that they take you down the path to understanding things that actually 'are' that have actual existence in the actual world. 'I don't like it it's bad' is the meaningless statement of a child. The only reason you consider slavery to be bad is when and where you were born, if you had been born in another time and place your attitude towards it would be entirely different. Not so with the other sins you mention, as they are by definition barriers to creating any kind of cohesive society.

So you believe forced slavery was moral at one time?

Then you should be able to quickly resolve the world's problems.

No, You are changing the context of your question now. You said if I was God what would I do to solve the slavery problem. If I was God I could solve the morality problem. As a human I can only do the best I can to understand morality and teach others that I have influence over.

Here's one for you you could provide a solution for - at some point in the future, if we ever get to it, there may be a wide network of highways designed for self-driving, sustainably fuelled vehicles of one kind or another. Centuries from now, someone might look at how we do things now and be appalled that we turned a blind eye to millions of people being killed or severely disabled every year so that we could drive around in vehicles that also ruined the environment. There's your retrospective problem - how will you stop everyone engaging in this murderous practice?

I cannot as a human. As God I could and I have already described how. Bypass this life and bring everyone to heaven from the start.

To make this a worthwhile discussion you do need to explain your thinking a bit. Your posts give the impression that you haven't really thought about any of this, going through a process of explaining what you mean would give you an opportunity to do that.

You just don't like my answers it seems. My stance is that forced slavery at any time in history was immoral. And that if I was God I would bring everyone to heaven from the start.

Forced slavery is always immoral because it violates a persons autonomy or freedom to choose how they want to live their life. I cannot fathom any context where forced slavery is moral. You can change my mind though if you have one?

If I was God and loved the people I created I would create them perfect and bring them all to heaven. I would not demand worship, I would provide for them etc. Let them decide what they wanted to do and how they want to live their eternity. If they are sinless and perfect they will always make a moral decision. It is really not that complicated to do the right thing.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Well, that's an interesting idea. The idea as I understand it is that this life is a sort of test in that the actual choice to want to be sinless is made and adhered to as much as this might be possible, to make the eventual transformation possible. You can't make a person sinless who doesn't want to be sinless.

If you are god you can. Don't let them sin in the first place. Create them perfect as you are going to transform them when they die anyway. God created Adam and Eve perfect right?

 

[Not David]

I agree. Do you disagree that well being for all is a good goal for morality?

Would you write rules or allow rules to be attributed to you that force enslavement on others? You are more moral than the God of the bible as well I bet.

I'm sure for you it would involve allowing gay sex.

 

[Not David]

You asked me a question on how I would do things differently if I were God. I answered. How is what god did better than what I would have done?

Because you are simping for rebellion against your creator which I find offensive.

 

[Not David]

Morals are subjective. However....

1) I bet there exists things in the Bible, for which [you] do not agree. If not, we can test this with the topic of slavery alone.

2) I'm also willing to bet [you] agree with my final assessments about slavery, more-so than what your God allows for, and/or sanctions, and/or etc. If not, we can test this with the same Verses.

If we agree on these (2) points above, then we are in a weird arena about what IS 'moral'.

Morals are subjective unless I want to act like a baby with what God says

 

[cvanwey]

Morals are subjective unless I want to act like a baby with what God says

I see you chose not to address my response. Do you agree with my two given points or not? yes or no? If yes, care to explain why? If the answer is no, care to explore the Biblical Verses, as written?

 

[cvanwey]

Because you are simping for rebellion against your creator which I find offensive.

Do you not understand what the most basic and classic definition of an 'atheist' is?

 

[durangodawood]

That sounds subjective.

No more than any other derivation of morality.

 

[Tom 1]

So you believe forced slavery was moral at one time?

No, You are changing the context of your question now. You said if I was God what would I do to solve the slavery problem. If I was God I could solve the morality problem. As a human I can only do the best I can to understand morality and teach others that I have influence over.

I cannot as a human. As God I could and I have already described how. Bypass this life and bring everyone to heaven from the start.

You just don't like my answers it seems. My stance is that forced slavery at any time in history was immoral. And that if I was God I would bring everyone to heaven from the start.

Forced slavery is always immoral because it violates a persons autonomy or freedom to choose how they want to live their life. I cannot fathom any context where forced slavery is moral. You can change my mind though if you have one?

If I was God and loved the people I created I would create them perfect and bring them all to heaven. I would not demand worship, I would provide for them etc. Let them decide what they wanted to do and how they want to live their eternity. If they are sinless and perfect they will always make a moral decision. It is really not that complicated to do the right thing.

Sure as an idea anything can be anything you want. I want to eat icecream without getting fat. People shouldn’t do bad stuff and have wars, or enslave each other, and there should only be peace and harmony and so on and so on. But are random statements about things that aren’t real worth talking about? Unless you have actual real things as a starting point, I’m not seeing what the use of the discussion is.

 

[Tom 1]

No, You are changing the context of your question now.

Not at all, rather you are pretending, or telling yourself, that your question has no context.

 

[Tom 1]

If you are god you can. Don't let them sin in the first place. Create them perfect as you are going to transform them when they die anyway. God created Adam and Eve perfect right?

What does any of that mean? They’re just meaningless words until you explain what you actually mean.

 

[cvanwey]

This is a big issue for me and one I had when I was a christian. God does not want me in heaven, he wants the perfect me, the sinless me. Which is not me at all. It is like telling my kid that I will only love you if you never screw up. God does not love believers he loves the perfect believers.

The claim, from Christianity, is also a completely unfalsifiable one. 'Once you die, all believers transcend to a heavenly realm, where they no longer sin.' Um, okay. I guess I'll take your word for it

No one has come back from the dead to tell me. Hence, it's easy to tell others to believe, 'before it is too late.'

Furthermore, belief is an amoral construct. You cannot control what you believe. Believing something or not believing something does not appear to fall within the realm of a 'moral framework' - by definition. Which then renders Christianity even more bazaar. Your entire means to salvation hinges upon something, which essentially has nothing to do with 'morals'. And yet, many Christians love to ask about 'morals'?

 

[Tom 1]

God created Adam and Eve perfect right?

Within the definition of perfect you are using is autonomous, able to make decisions, driven by different impulses etc, i.e. human. Humans created human civilisations. Civilisations progress through different stages in which different modes of living can become possible.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'm sure for you it would involve allowing gay sex.

We are talking about slavery, not gay sex.

Would you write rules or allow rules to be attributed to you that force enslavement on others?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Because you are simping for rebellion against your creator which I find offensive.

Ok. So that means you won't engage in a conversation?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Sure as an idea anything can be anything you want. I want to eat icecream without getting fat. People shouldn’t do bad stuff and have wars, or enslave each other, and there should only be peace and harmony and so on and so on. But are random statements about things that aren’t real worth talking about? Unless you have actual real things as a starting point, I’m not seeing what the use of the discussion is.

YOU asked if I was God how I would run things in the ancient world. I answered. Since I am not god I have no idea how to stop slavery in the ancient world. But that is not what YOU asked. It matters more that the God you believe in and follow allowed for forced slavery when he did not have to do so. God could have and should have acted in a more moral way than he has if he exists.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Not at all, rather you are pretending, or telling yourself, that your question has no context.

Could God have stopped slavery if he wanted to do so?

 

[cvanwey]

Ok. So that means you won't engage in a conversation?

I'm no mind reader, but I feel I may have the gist here...

He sees you as a rebellious sinner. You know God exists. You love your sin more than the God you already knows exists. Everything you say is a sin against Him, as you 'choose' to instead defy/rebel/disobey.

Why can I state this with confidence? His conclusion likely stems from the Bible. And what does the Bible state?.... Romans 1:18-22

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What does any of that mean? They’re just meaningless words until you explain what you actually mean.

I will quote myself:

If you are god you can. Don't let them sin in the first place. Create them perfect as you are going to transform them when they die anyway. God created Adam and Eve perfect right?

You claimed that God cannot forgive sin if the person does not want it forgiven. I disagreed but my solution is that God can just create people perfect like Adam and Eve in heaven. Don't let them have the chance to sin. If the goal is to want all to be saved and have them live with you forever then just create them in heaven or the new earth or whatever you believe about the afterlife.

What don't you understand about these words?