Slave Reparations

[GraftMeIn]

Ahhhh Brimshack, as far as class action lawsuits go. I think they should all be done away with. The only ones who get rich from those are the lawyers.

As far as inequality goes, I have a hard time seeing it since I worked with someone who was late for work almost every day, refused to show up on certain days, would even show up drunk, and was never repremanded for fear of a discrimination lawsuit. I also saw others given jobs, because they couldn't be discriminated against, and these very same people never showed up to work.

I see more reverse discrimintation in our country today than anything.

 

[kiwimac]

Here in NZ we set up the Waitangi Claims Tribunal (follow the link for more info) http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/. The Waitangi Tribunal is a permanent Government Commission whose function is to enable Maori (indigenous people) and Pakeha (descendants of settlers) to deal with each other in truth.

You see the thing about reparations for Slavery is that the reparations aren't about money (necessarily) or about being a "hand out," its about honesty. Your country took human beings away from their what their lives were meant to be & built your society on the back of their effort.

Yes, you owe them. You owe them your current power and prosperity, you owe them the current comfortableness of your middle-class lives but those in power hate the thought of helping those who efforts gave them the power, so you whine and complain!

The truth of the matter is, until you acknowledge what your ancestors did, you cannot comfortably look one another in the face, honour demands a repayment & the easiest one to make is money and land.

Kiwimac

 

[Brimshack]

If you're opposed to class action lawsuits, Graft then that supervenes the present debate. My point is simply that that would be the way it was handled under the present system. The individual you described and the dilemma that posed for your boss show that concerns about racism may lead to absurd reactions, but it does not in any sense demonstrate the absence of racial inequality in America. I probably face more 'reverse' discrimination in my own work environment than most of the people here, but the day I use that as an excuse to minimize the problems of minority communities I hope people have the good sense to ignore me.

 

[Job_38]

Originally posted by kiwimac
Here in NZ we set up the Waitangi Claims Tribunal (follow the link for more info) http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/. The Waitangi Tribunal is a permanent Government Commission whose function is to enable Maori (indigenous people) and Pakeha (descendants of settlers) to deal with each other in truth.

You see the thing about reparations for Slavery is that the reparations aren't about money (necessarily) or about being a "hand out," its about honesty. Your country took human beings away from their what their lives were meant to be & built your society on the back of their effort.

Yes, you owe them. You owe them your current power and prosperity, you owe them the current comfortableness of your middle-class lives but those in power hate the thought of helping those who efforts gave them the power, so you whine and complain!

The truth of the matter is, until you acknowledge what your ancestors did, you cannot comfortably look one another in the face, honour demands a repayment & the easiest one to make is money and land.

Kiwimac

 

 

 So when we outlawed slavery that did nothing? We do not owe them anything, because we did not do anything to them.

 

Your country took human beings away from their what their lives were meant to be & built your society on the back of their effort.

 No, opposing African tribes sold their own people to the slave trader who then sold them around the world. The US is not the only country to have owned slaves.

 

The truth of the matter is, until you acknowledge what your ancestors did, you cannot comfortably look one another in the face, honour demands a repayment & the easiest one to make is money and land.


 

 Should the Zulu tribes that sold their own into slavery repay the blacks who demand they be payed? We acknowledged it when we outlawed it.


Yes, you owe them. You owe them your current power and prosperity, you owe them the current comfortableness of your middle-class lives but those in power hate the thought of helping those who efforts gave them the power, so you whine and complain!


 

 Why do I owe them? My father gained what he has, he gained it through hard work. Work done through field working, working on oil rigs, serving his country, and going to work day in and day out. They have every right to go out there and get work. You are making them victims, you presuppose they have to be payed.

 

 

Did the goverment own slaves?

Was Slavery illegal?

Was it only practiced bythe US?

 

 

[Brimshack]

PrinceJeff: Being an Anglo-American is the biggest, best, and most efficient affirmative action program their ever was. No need to be jealous of minority affirmative action programs.

Job: One cannot refute the notion that America, etc. took slaves by pointing out that Africans took them in the first place. Our nations purchases are sufficient to implicate us. Of course the slave trade itself was the ruin of many of those African nations, so it will be harder tracing guilt to any of them.

Slavery was not ilegal; that's precisely why the U.S. itself could be named as a party in the suit.

But to the heart of your argument, outlawing slavery did not do anything to compensate the victims. Had the 40 acres and a mule forumla been impliemented on a large scale that would have helped. But the bulk of America' black population was left landless and at the mercy of southern plantation owners after reconstruction. One could indeed speak of a re-enslavement lasting clear up to the civil rights era. The point is that it was absurd to expect a segment of the American population to work their way out of poverty with so little access to resources (including for much of American history the American legal system itself). It is just as absurd to expect that now so soon after the Civil Rights movement. Without access to resurces, abstract rights mean nothing, and African Americans have been excluded from access to resources for most of American history. Now they are grudgingly afforded the right to equal access, ect., but somehow that's supposed to be enough. Frankly, I would just as soon the issue was not raised in the context of reparations, but this is simply a tactic used to secure allocation of resources to black community development. I don't particularly support reparations itself, but I gather from your remarks, those of Graft, and of PrinceJeff, and perhaps A Sheep as well, I gather that you are all opposed in principle to any deliberate attempt to benefit minorities in any way. This is just the latest idiom for a long-standing conflict over whether or not African Americans deserve any rights or benefits in America.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Hmm, I see that you all have been busy since I posted my Lincoln quote (at around 23:00 Israel time last night).

Brimshack posted:

outlawing slavery did not do anything to compensate the victims. Had the 40 acres and a mule forumla been impliemented on a large scale that would have helped. But the bulk of America' black population was left landless and at the mercy of southern plantation owners after reconstruction. One could indeed speak of a re-enslavement lasting clear up to the civil rights era.

Your take on reconstruction and the failings thereof are correct & jibe with what Kenneth Stampp wrote in his 1972 book "Era of Reconstruction, 1865-1877". The failure to enact any serious (or even semi-serious) land reform/redistribution program inevitably led to a situation in which

the bulk of America' black population was left landless and at the mercy of southern plantation owners after reconstruction. One could indeed speak of a re-enslavement lasting clear up to the civil rights era

.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Brimshack]

Thanks Smallvoice. (How'd we get on the same side of an issue? …pleasant surprise.)

 

[ZiSunka]

Yes, you owe them. You owe them your current power and prosperity, you owe them the current comfortableness of your middle-class lives but those in power hate the thought of helping those who efforts gave them the power, so you whine and complain!

In this country, we work for our comfortable middle class lives. I guess with your line of thinking, we should buy them all 2000 SF homes, give them nice cars and a middle-class income because their great-great-great-great grandparents were slaves.

How is it that anything is owed to anyone presently alive. Shouldn't any reparations be paid to the ex-slaves based on the real damages they incurred? Since no one of this description is still alive, who would you pay reparations to?? Reparations are for repair of damage. Not a windfall to people who were never part of the actual events. Hasn't the statute of limitations surely run out on reparations?

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by Job_38
What do you think? Should we pay the blacks of today money because their ancestors were slaves?

 

 

Sorry my brothers and sisters but this INFERIATES ME!!!!

If you pay the blacks because of what their ancestors suffered,

then you MUST pay retribution for what the Native Americans

suffered at the hands of the U.S. GOVERNMENT.

Take for instance my Cherokee ancestors, forced to march

to Oklahoma, a great many of whom DIED along the way.

(The Trail of Tears)

Most of the Cherokee left here (Tennessee) were just

stubborn enough to return is all.

If your Great-Great Grandfather was a slave...GET OVER IT.

We live in a free country, we are blessed by our Great God

to worship freely without the fear of persicution.

 

[Brimshack]

Indian tribes had the Indian Claims Commission. Whether it was fairly conducted or not is a debate in itself, but in principle, there was an attempt made to compensate them for theft of lands. That's more than African Americans have had, but more to the point, it will not help one Native Americsan to oppose reparations or any other pro-black agenda.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee...

Brimshack posted:

Thanks Smallvoice. (How'd we get on the same side of an issue? …pleasant surprise.)

Hmm...musta been the coffee.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by Starscream


I'm not sure I'd be too quick to trivialize how hard it is to break out of poverty.  Would my life of turned out so great if my parents hadn't of been wealthy?  I doubt it.
[/B]

 

Starscream,

You've only stated that you relied solely upon your parents.

Don't trvialize those of us who HAVE broken out of poverty.

It's called:

1. DETERMINATION

2. HARD WORK

3. TRUST IN GOD

As the saying goes, you won't appreciate something

unless you've earned it.

 

[Annabel Lee]

My grandmother came to America when she was 15. She worked as a maid to send money back to her widowed mother in Ireland to help feed her 9 younger brothers and sisters.
She broke out of poverty..all of her children were college educated.
I was raised by my widowed mother..she never let us slide into poverty. It took her ten years but she did get a college degree. She was an administrator at The Museum of Natural History in Manhattan. My sisters and I were very proud of her.
Oh heck...now I'm babbling. I really miss her.

 

[Smilin]

Brim,
The Indians Claims Commission was a joke,
The Native Americans received no more reperations
than the previous Enron employees will probably
receive for their losses

Indians is a term Columbus coined for the natives
he encountered when that idiot
thought he had landed in India.
If your desire is to simply be a follower
of those who won't dare cross
what is considered the 'politically
correct flavor of the month'
then please refer to us as 'Native
Americans'......we were here first,
we are AMERICANS..and NOT INDIANS.
Indians are from India.

African American? What are you (or
any other person) insenuating with
this title?

That's another debate, and just a 'politically correct'
term used by politicians, journalists, newspaper columnists,
etc. who pretend to be anti-racist, but are too scared to
stand up to the Rainbow Coalition, NAACP and all it's clowns.
I was under the impression, if you were a
US citizen...you were AMERICAN....period.
African is a term for people of African citizenship.

Pro-black Agenda....there's another one of those
'political terms'.....Are you planning on entering
politics?.....

Funny, but how would you feel of a Pro-Native American
agenda....i.e....if you're not of Native American descent...
LEAVE...oh yeah...leave a bag of money on your way out
too....

I can't speek for the other tribes,
but if you're REALLY interested in learning the TRUTH
of what the 'ATTEMPTS TO COMPENSATE'
the Cherokee for the theft of their land...
i.e. MOST of Eastern Tennessee, Northern Alabama,
Georgia, and Mississippi...
Please be my guest and visit our area. I'd be happy
to show you what our ancestors suffered.


Slavery was legal, most of our great presidents owned slaves...

Andrew Jackson (a Tennessean, ran for president campaigning
as an 'Indian killer'

Here's something else for yah....Cherokees were sold as slaves
as well on the open trade market...
But keep your handouts.

Lincoln freed the slaves...right?
We live in a free country....right?
The ONLY thing we (Americans)
are guaranteed under the Constitution
is Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness.

And does God distinguish between
race? No....

Everyone in this blessed country that
God graciously gave us has the same
opportunities...

If you're cowardly enough to hide behind
your ancestry, race, religion, etc...
to solicit handouts and favours from
the rest of us Americans.....May God forgive you

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
My grandmother came to America when she was 15. She worked as a maid to send money back to her widowed mother in Ireland to help feed her 9 younger brothers and sisters.
She broke out of poverty..all of her children were college educated.
I was raised by my widowed mother..she never let us slide into poverty. It took her ten years but she did get a college degree. She was an administrator at The Museum of Natural History in Manhattan. My sisters and I were very proud of her.
Oh heck...now I'm babbling. I really miss her.

 

 

 

YOU GO GIRL!!!!!

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by Stormy
No. If there were still people alive that had been forced into slavery, then I would think differently. 

 

Stormy...

Most people don't know it...

but the slave trade is STILL alive and well

in America.  Don't believe it?  I'll find the website

that shows the statistics.  But a quick example

off the top of my head....

Many brothels in this area (advertised as Massage

Parlors) were just raided and shut down after a 5 year

investigation by the FBI.  The operation has been traced

to many other states as well....

 

[Smilin]

The victims???
Teenage girls abducted from third world
countries...Mexico, Korea, Thailand, Russia...
and forced into prostitution....

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by Brimshack
My objection to reparations is strictly rhetorical. It bogs down real questions about how to achieve positive developments in minorities communities, and ties a lot of baggage about historical issues to community development. I can see the logic behind the claim that reparations are due, but I think it's a losing argument, for shear political reasons. The notion that people should be able to bring themselves out of poverty is morally compelling, but it completely ignores the realities of poverty. Some indviduals can and do work their way out of such aommunities, but the notion that entire ethnic groups should be able to solve problems caused at least partially by others by pulling themselves up by their own boostraps is no more realistic than the argument for reparations. Victimology is indeed rampant in minority politics, but the effort to blame large-scale patterns of wealth inequality that have lasted for many generations on contemporary liberal politics is a classic example of Hitler's Big Lie.

So what is your point?

and what's Hitler got to do with it?

Were you one of Clinton's aides during his scandals?

How about this SIMPLE point as food for thought...

Matthew 6
<SUP>19</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
<SUP>20</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

 

[Edge]

Smilin: How strange. I wouldn't have expected you to support estate and inheritance taxes, let alone advocate their increase to 100 percent. Regardless, I find myself agreeing. You can't appriciate something unless you work for it: start everyone from an even financial beginning and let everyone "work their way" out of poverty.

In the slim chance that you don't agree with the above, I have to wonder what kind of blindness you'd have to be suffering from to expect every poor black person to kill themselves working just to acquire a living wage and a livable house when the (almost entirely white) rich recieve much more by birthright, or how you could call that situation just or even fair.

 

[Smilin]

Edge...Witty Profile....LOL...

1. I never mentioned estate or inheritance taxes...
Please re-read my postes.

2. I TOTALLY agree with your stance that EVERYONE
should ONLY be given the chance to work their
way out of poverty.

3. Where do you live? Birthright? your kidding...right?
(Only if you're a Kennedy)

4. Only man distingishes race...We're all the same, and WILL
be held accountable EQUALLY before God....
I'm SURE there will be a few at the judgement throne
pleading their cause as a result of their race...lack of inheritence...etc.

HEY...HERE'S SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

GROW WHERE GOD HAS PLANTED YOU