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Slave Reparations
- Thread starter Job_38
- Start date
I'm glad you like it, Smilin.
1. I know. I was just playing with the implications of some of your statements. It's nothing.
2. Eh. If everyone started out poor and destitute, I might agree with that statement.
3. If you are born to a rich family, you are essentially assured a excellent education, an easy job, and material wealth for the rest of your life: hence "birthright".
4. Guess what? As you said, man does attend to race. If you're black, chances are you are already fighting an uphill battle. Because of historic inequality and current discrimination, you will have to dedicate a good portion of your life to overcoming obstacles that don't even exist for your average middle-class WASP.
1. I know. I was just playing with the implications of some of your statements. It's nothing.
2. Eh. If everyone started out poor and destitute, I might agree with that statement.
3. If you are born to a rich family, you are essentially assured a excellent education, an easy job, and material wealth for the rest of your life: hence "birthright".
4. Guess what? As you said, man does attend to race. If you're black, chances are you are already fighting an uphill battle. Because of historic inequality and current discrimination, you will have to dedicate a good portion of your life to overcoming obstacles that don't even exist for your average middle-class WASP.
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I agree that a black man will have a harder time, but there was no difference with Martin Luther King Jr.(great man btw) who rose above and was the one who got the civil rights, unlike Malcom X's(before he returned from Mecca(sp?) and the Black Panthers, who wanted to increase the gulf. There doesn't always have to be a zero sum, there doesn't always have to be a winner and a loser. We can all win, its just a matter if people want to work it out. And people who never owned a slave paying money should not have to pay.
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Smilin':
I didn't argue that the ICC was adequate compensation. I argued that it was more than African Americans have had, and apparently more than you would like them to have. You oppose compensation for African Americans, and yet you complain that compensation for your own people is inadequate. The double standard is apparent.
I'm uninterested in your incohernt rant on the terms in question. I would normally make an effort to adjust my vocabulary based on your own preferences, but I wouldn't want to deprive you of this opportunity to indulge in moral outrage. I do find it odd that you would advocate PC terms as such, and yet criticize me for using 'poilitical terms.' The invariant principle here seems to be the belief that I must be wrong somehow, even if you have to reverse directions to keep up the charge.
Your entire post is an extended red herring, combined with a sprinkling of ad hominems. I hope you enjoy showing contempt for me, but it doesn't add much to the discussion.
On post # 38, I don't feel like answering rhetorical questions right now, but feel free to keep posting insults.
I didn't argue that the ICC was adequate compensation. I argued that it was more than African Americans have had, and apparently more than you would like them to have. You oppose compensation for African Americans, and yet you complain that compensation for your own people is inadequate. The double standard is apparent.
I'm uninterested in your incohernt rant on the terms in question. I would normally make an effort to adjust my vocabulary based on your own preferences, but I wouldn't want to deprive you of this opportunity to indulge in moral outrage. I do find it odd that you would advocate PC terms as such, and yet criticize me for using 'poilitical terms.' The invariant principle here seems to be the belief that I must be wrong somehow, even if you have to reverse directions to keep up the charge.
Your entire post is an extended red herring, combined with a sprinkling of ad hominems. I hope you enjoy showing contempt for me, but it doesn't add much to the discussion.
On post # 38, I don't feel like answering rhetorical questions right now, but feel free to keep posting insults.
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Some are; some aren't, but black skin is no longer the basis for the varieties of slavery still practiced in the U.S., at least not officially.
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Smilin
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The Cherokee are asking for nothing. If I didn't communicate
myself adequately...let me refocus...we want NOTHING
we don't earn ourselves.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them
what the COULD and SHOULD do for themselves.
-Abraham Lincoln
Do you agree with this statement Brimshack?
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Smilin
Spirit of the Wolf
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In your opinion...what is the basis that consitutes slavery..
and please elaborate on your 'officially' comment.
Who established the 'official' viewpoint?
Can you provide reliable statistics?
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Even if everyone agreed on this matter, wouldn't there still be problems? Who would be responsible for payment? Who would receive payment? How would the amount be determined?
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Smilin
Spirit of the Wolf
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Exactly admozart,
A good recent example would be the $400.00 income
tax refund EVERY citizen was SUPPOSED to get...
but MANY found out about all the 'loopholes' in the law.
Basically,
We should learn the lessons of history and go forward.
A good recent example would be the $400.00 income
tax refund EVERY citizen was SUPPOSED to get...
but MANY found out about all the 'loopholes' in the law.
Basically,
We should learn the lessons of history and go forward.
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Smilin': "The Cherokee are asking for nothing._ If I didn't communicate
myself adequately...let me refocus...we want NOTHING
we don't earn ourselves.
_
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them
what the_ COULD and SHOULD do for themselves.
-Abraham Lincoln
_
Do you agree with this statement Brimshack?"
Actually I'm glad you clarified that, because it locks in my argument. If you were really arguing that reparations should be paid to the Cherokee if they are also paid to African Americans, then I have been misreading you, but you haven't. Your argument is clearly a reductio ad absurdum against reparations. To that my original argument stands. the Indian Claims Commission was a form of reparation, however inadequate, and thus you are denying African Americans the right to even as much as Indian peoples have had. Also, it remains the case that stopping reparations won't help your people in any way, so your comparison remains a non sequitor.
Do I agree with the one statement? It is actually a tautology, so there isn't much point in weighing in for or against it. I also think it is deceptive to apply the moral reasoning used for individuals to collective problems. So, where I am reluctant to provide charity to individuals who aren't doing anything themselves, I do not regard this as a sufficient reason to block reparation. Genuine, concerns over whether the reparations would be well spent could go to the issue of what form the reparations will take. But using this as an argument against reparations in principle is shallow moralism at its worst.
I'll be happy to respond to your questions about slavery later tonight. I have already made a similar point in an old thread on slavery that Seebs started. No, I don't have statistics. I will make the claim based on what I do know, and you can dismiss it as you wish and add whatever personal attacks you'd like.
myself adequately...let me refocus...we want NOTHING
we don't earn ourselves.
_
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them
what the_ COULD and SHOULD do for themselves.
-Abraham Lincoln
_
Do you agree with this statement Brimshack?"
Actually I'm glad you clarified that, because it locks in my argument. If you were really arguing that reparations should be paid to the Cherokee if they are also paid to African Americans, then I have been misreading you, but you haven't. Your argument is clearly a reductio ad absurdum against reparations. To that my original argument stands. the Indian Claims Commission was a form of reparation, however inadequate, and thus you are denying African Americans the right to even as much as Indian peoples have had. Also, it remains the case that stopping reparations won't help your people in any way, so your comparison remains a non sequitor.
Do I agree with the one statement? It is actually a tautology, so there isn't much point in weighing in for or against it. I also think it is deceptive to apply the moral reasoning used for individuals to collective problems. So, where I am reluctant to provide charity to individuals who aren't doing anything themselves, I do not regard this as a sufficient reason to block reparation. Genuine, concerns over whether the reparations would be well spent could go to the issue of what form the reparations will take. But using this as an argument against reparations in principle is shallow moralism at its worst.
I'll be happy to respond to your questions about slavery later tonight. I have already made a similar point in an old thread on slavery that Seebs started. No, I don't have statistics. I will make the claim based on what I do know, and you can dismiss it as you wish and add whatever personal attacks you'd like.
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There are many women forced into prostitution and how some people like to call migrate workers slaves, they are doing better than they would in Mexico.
If they are not blacks, what are they? PC There?
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Smilin
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Job,
I'll give you a recent example of what happened here
in Eastern Tennessee.
Several 'brothels' were recently raided and shut down
by the FBI. This followed a 5 year investigation.
The brothels were linked to mafia members in other
states. If you wish to read the exact newspaper article
I'll have to dig for you.
Inside these brothels were teenage girls who had
been abducted from Thailaind mainly, but some other
countries as well, Russia & Mexico to name 2.
They had been misled with the promise of a new life
and high paying jobs in the USA. The perpetrators
then smuggled them illegaly into this country,
and subsequently forced them into prostitution.
I'll give you a recent example of what happened here
in Eastern Tennessee.
Several 'brothels' were recently raided and shut down
by the FBI. This followed a 5 year investigation.
The brothels were linked to mafia members in other
states. If you wish to read the exact newspaper article
I'll have to dig for you.
Inside these brothels were teenage girls who had
been abducted from Thailaind mainly, but some other
countries as well, Russia & Mexico to name 2.
They had been misled with the promise of a new life
and high paying jobs in the USA. The perpetrators
then smuggled them illegaly into this country,
and subsequently forced them into prostitution.
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I know of that, don't worry. But I see comparisons between this and what happened when we had institutionilized(sp?) slavery. There is none.
Also, there are women that are kidnapped from the US by people who mislead them into becoming a model, then sent to Asia, then back here or somewhere else in the world. Terrible, needs to be stopped and I pray it is.
Also, there are women that are kidnapped from the US by people who mislead them into becoming a model, then sent to Asia, then back here or somewhere else in the world. Terrible, needs to be stopped and I pray it is.
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Smilin
Spirit of the Wolf
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Job,
The comparison is that slavery is slavery, and still exists.
Let's not single out one specific group as being the only
ones who have suffered. Many Native Americans and
Asians were sold on the auction block as well.
Brim,
We'll refocus our discussion and start again as soon as I have
the time to develop an appropriate response
The comparison is that slavery is slavery, and still exists.
Let's not single out one specific group as being the only
ones who have suffered. Many Native Americans and
Asians were sold on the auction block as well.
Brim,
We'll refocus our discussion and start again as soon as I have
the time to develop an appropriate response
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Knight
Knight of the Cross
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There is one huge problem with reparations that nobody has yet pointed out.
In the late 1800's and early 1900's there was a massive population explosion in this country due to immigration. The people who came in and the decendands of them had absolutely nothing to do with slavery in America. The reparations would come out of their tax money as well. Is that fair? I don't think so.
Also, what about those of us in the North? What about those of us with ancestors who fought on the Union side of the Civil War? My family has been here since at least the early 1800's and I had two Great-Great Grandfathers who fought on the Union side of the Civil War. One was a Calvary officer and both were at Gettysburg.
One more point to consider. Asking for reparations is like saying to the Black people: "You can't make it on your own. Here, take this money because we feel sorry for you."
That, my friends, is an insult of the highest order. (IMHO, of course.)
In the late 1800's and early 1900's there was a massive population explosion in this country due to immigration. The people who came in and the decendands of them had absolutely nothing to do with slavery in America. The reparations would come out of their tax money as well. Is that fair? I don't think so.
Also, what about those of us in the North? What about those of us with ancestors who fought on the Union side of the Civil War? My family has been here since at least the early 1800's and I had two Great-Great Grandfathers who fought on the Union side of the Civil War. One was a Calvary officer and both were at Gettysburg.
One more point to consider. Asking for reparations is like saying to the Black people: "You can't make it on your own. Here, take this money because we feel sorry for you."
That, my friends, is an insult of the highest order. (IMHO, of course.)
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IslandBreeze
Caribbean Queen
Let's see...I never owned slaves..my parents never owned slaves...my grandparents never owned slaves...my great-grandparents never owned slaves...my great GREAT grandparents never owned slaves...reparations are nonsense. Blacks have more opportunities in this country today than anyone else. They don't need money; they already have affirmative action.
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Smilin
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Exactly Cammie;
On the topic of affirmitive action, go up against a black female for a job with any federal agency or contractor of a federal agency and see who gets the job (regardless of experience)
Anyone who would use their minority status, is a coward and a shame to their ethnic group of our American citizens.
A few other things black 'free' people have that others don't:
1. The NAACP which grants scholarships strictly to blacks.
2. The Rainbow Coalition (I'll bite my tounge on this one)
Brimshack mentioned in an earlier thread the Native Americans were afforded reperations for the acts due to them while the Black Americans have received nothing.
Where in the Bill of Rights are we guaranteed anything as a citizen of the United States anything other than Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Let me refocus and clarify my position:
NO...NO...NO...
Blacks weren't the only ones enslaved when slavery was legal. Native Americans, Chinese, and other minorities were sold on the auction block.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sick and tired of 'politically motivated' handouts by the government for the simple fact of buying votes from a minority population.
In closing....I reiterate; ANYONE who would use their heritage for personal gain is a coward and a shame to their ethnic culture.
If that sounds of white superiority to you...I won't apologize...
for my people were here first..and we are proud to be self-sufficient.
On the topic of affirmitive action, go up against a black female for a job with any federal agency or contractor of a federal agency and see who gets the job (regardless of experience)
Anyone who would use their minority status, is a coward and a shame to their ethnic group of our American citizens.
A few other things black 'free' people have that others don't:
1. The NAACP which grants scholarships strictly to blacks.
2. The Rainbow Coalition (I'll bite my tounge on this one)
Brimshack mentioned in an earlier thread the Native Americans were afforded reperations for the acts due to them while the Black Americans have received nothing.
Where in the Bill of Rights are we guaranteed anything as a citizen of the United States anything other than Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Let me refocus and clarify my position:
NO...NO...NO...
Blacks weren't the only ones enslaved when slavery was legal. Native Americans, Chinese, and other minorities were sold on the auction block.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sick and tired of 'politically motivated' handouts by the government for the simple fact of buying votes from a minority population.
In closing....I reiterate; ANYONE who would use their heritage for personal gain is a coward and a shame to their ethnic culture.
If that sounds of white superiority to you...I won't apologize...
for my people were here first..and we are proud to be self-sufficient.
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