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Skulls, Halloween, dark stuff...

BobRyan

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So then what influenced Christians to adopt pagan holidays??

========================

C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]
D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.
E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.


Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began

 
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BobRyan

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[FONT=&quot]The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic book "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

How much influence did Emperor Constantine have on the RCC “really”. How much of a role in moving it past the point of merely “Not persecuted” ?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]==== begin quote
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At first Constantine[/FONT][FONT=&quot] observed an attitude of formal correctness toward paganism. He remained its Supreme Pontiff, paid homage to the sun god[/FONT][FONT=&quot] on the official coinage, and in general was careful not to alienate the pagan masses…But he gradually revealed his true feelings. He imposed restrictions on pagan practice and publicly displayed the Christian symbols He attached the standards of the army to a cross emblazoned with the monograme of Christ and issued coins picturing himself wearing a helmet stamped with the same monogram…he increasingly identified the interests of the state with those of Christianity. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Bokenkotter "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]page 38)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“The emperor showed great generosity to the Church in lavishing donations on it and erecting numerous sumptuous basilicas, including the magnificent one over the supposed site of the tomb of Peter at Rome and another over the tomb of Christ in Jerusalem. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]He surrendered HIS Lateran palace in Rome to the bishop of Rome for a residence and it remained the Papal residence until 1308[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] When in 324 he moved the capital of the Empire to Byzantium, which was renamed Constantinople after him, he erected numerous churches there…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"This [/FONT][FONT=&quot]alliiance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] It carried many advantages, but it also entailed some serious drawbacks; ... Mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly [/FONT][FONT=&quot]one of the greatest turning points[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the history of the Catholic church[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and of the world." Ibid - Pg 39 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]clergy at first were not sharply differentiated from the laity[/FONT][FONT=&quot]..the clergy married, raised families, and earned their livelihood at some trade or profession. But as the practice grew [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of paying them..they withdrew more and more from secular pursuits, until by the fourth century such withdrawal was deemed obligatory"

"
at first the Christian presbyter or elder (as they were really known) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and, in fact even deliberately [/FONT][FONT=&quot]refused to be called a priest[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He (the real Christian leader) saw his primary function as the ministry of the word. ..but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]with its features borrowed from paganism,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] enhanced the image of the minister[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as a sacred personage. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule[/FONT][FONT=&quot] rather[/FONT][FONT=&quot] than the exception, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]for infants could not be preached to. "
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
 
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MoreCoffee

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It's that time of year again when GT is plagued by a surfeit of threads about paganism and days of the year. Seems that some people think that 25th-December is pagan and some day between 22nd of March and the end of May is also pagan despite it being as close to Passover as a Sunday can be. But be that as it may the idea that any day of God's year is given over to pagan gods is absurd. So absurd that it is amazing that any Christian can think of entertaining it without a little chortle of bemused disbelief.

Now, it is as obvious as can be that Christmas is about Jesus Christ and that makes it a Christian feast rather than some silly pagan thing. Don't folk know that paganism is long since discredited? Don't folk know that pagan gods and lords are all nothing?

Anyway, if you folk want to play the annual game of "Christmas is bad! mmmmmmmkay. So don't do Christmas because Christmas is bad mmmmmkay" you're welcome to do so but I urge all the Christians reading the thread to chuckle and chortle as much as they can as they read and then unsubscribe :p
 
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PaladinValer

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All please accept the real history posted by ViaCrucisand outright reject the typical 19th century psuedohistory posted by BobRyan. The good Lutheran's post is the only valid of the two, and as someone who did a guided study of the history of Halloween professionally in college, I place my expertise behind his post 100%.

Oh, and the same is true about Christmas and Pascha/Easter. However, and I'm sure ViaCrucis won't mind me added a bit to his already excellent post, the dating of Christmas was based on the previously fixed celebration of the Annunciation, already celebrated. The Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, according to the historical record, was established after the Nativity of the Lord Jesus Christ (Christmas), which had for some time been celebrated during the now-recognized twelve days of Christmas. Also, the Roman Saturnia only lasted until December 23rd, so there is no real parallel there either.

As for Pascha, the idea of Eoster being an Asatru deity is outrageously wrong. The Veneral St. Bede was wrong in this instance. In all the primary sources we have of Norse and Germanic Pagan religious literature, there is absolutely no mention of such a goddess. The etymology of the word has been traced to a word meaning "shining dawn" and we get the word "aurora" from the same root.
 
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nigheandonn

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Genuine question for all of you: Why does it matter if Halloween was originally a Christian holiday? That has absolutely zero bearing on what it represents today and whether we should celebrate it. It's interesting to know, but it's the current way it's celebrated that should inform your decision, not any Christian past.

Also, I must apologize to some people in this thread... I said a while ago that I would come back when I could and address a few arguments they made and questions they asked, and I never did. I got a little tired of arguing and put it off, and then I forgot.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It's that time of year again when GT is plagued by a surfeit of threads about paganism and days of the year. Seems that some people think that 25th-December is pagan and some day between 22nd of March and the end of May is also pagan despite it being as close to Passover as a Sunday can be. But be that as it may the idea that any day of God's year is given over to pagan gods is absurd. So absurd that it is amazing that any Christian can think of entertaining it without a little chortle of bemused disbelief.

Now, it is as obvious as can be that Christmas is about Jesus Christ and that makes it a Christian feast rather than some silly pagan thing. Don't folk know that paganism is long since discredited? Don't folk know that pagan gods and lords are all nothing?

Anyway, if you folk want to play the annual game of "Christmas is bad! mmmmmmmkay.
So don't do Christmas because Christmas is bad mmmmmkay" you're welcome to do so but I urge all the Christians reading the thread to chuckle and chortle as much as they can as they read and then unsubscribe :p
I anxiously await the plethora of Christmas threads to start coming. :)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7777313-101/
The case for Christmas being Pagan

October 1, 2013

I am approaching my 50th Christmas Season. The first 37 of which I celebrated Christmas as a Catholic. Since 2000 I have abstained from the Holiday.

I intend for this thread to be a personal testimony of how, through the Holy Spirit, I’ve grown in my Faith in Jesus Christ. The information provided is intended for an interactive cooperative educational experience. Something that is not available by the routine Google search process. For those that can approach this topic with an open mind, I welcome your comments. For trolls with the intent to be noise makers, your comments will most likely be ignored. It is my express purpose to stay on topic with minimal distractions.

My citations of the Scripture will provide content and commentary, making the case that the tradition of Christmas is Pagan in origin and general practice in our modern era. Christmas is contrary to what Scripture teaches.
I am not arguing that Scripture is the only source of truth; I believe that scripture alone is the sole rule of Faith.

In the spirit of adding (2 Peter 1) to, growing, and becoming stronger (1 Cor 3) in Faith, I would like to proceed . . . .




.
 
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PaladinValer

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Genuine question for all of you: Why does it matter if Halloween was originally a Christian holiday?

Not "was"; is. It is officially still a sacred day for the vast majority of Christians.

That has absolutely zero bearing on what it represents today and whether we should celebrate it.

Fallacy of False Equivalency. The secular Halloween and the religious All Hallows Eve are not the same. The secular derived from the religion but it isn't the same.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with bobbing for apples, going trick-or-treating, dressing up in costume, and carving pumpkins...or horror movies for those who like that sort of thing, etc.

It's interesting to know, but it's the current way it's celebrated that should inform your decision, not any Christian past.

See the above. What is wrong with any of these or any other popular celebration of the secular Halloween? Or the Day of the Dead?
 
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Wandering Cat Lady

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I see this is still going...

My intent wasn't to talk specifically about the holidays, but since we're on that topic, I don't appreciate Halloween and I have never known ONE Christian who has celebrated it as a "Christian" holiday. Perhaps there are other groups of Christians that do but I have never heard of any.

I am neither for nor against Halloween although I am more against it than for, if I must be honest. The fact that so many use it to inspire fear and darkness and to focus on death, just makes me want to stay away from it. I do however hand out candy to the kids. No reason not to. I grew up without Halloween and Christmas and Easter due to their "pagan origins". I now do Christmas and Easter.
 
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sdowney717

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My view is rather than invite into my life, shadows, ghouls, ghosts, death, witches, etc...I prefer to cast them out of my life. You just don't want them hanging around, your life while here on earth.

In the spiritual realm does exist darkness and wickedness, spiritual powers of the enemy, why give or yield to them in any fashion. Do you want them invading your thought patterns or cause mischief in your life?

Let's glorify God and His great salvation and let His praise be continually in our mouths.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I see this is still going...

My intent wasn't to talk specifically about the holidays, but since we're on that topic, I don't appreciate Halloween and I have never known ONE Christian who has celebrated it as a "Christian" holiday. Perhaps there are other groups of Christians that do but I have never heard of any.

I am neither for nor against Halloween although I am more against it than for, if I must be honest. The fact that so many use it to inspire fear and darkness and to focus on death, just makes me want to stay away from it. I do however hand out candy to the kids. No reason not to. I grew up without Halloween and Christmas and Easter due to their "pagan origins". I now do Christmas and Easter.

Catholics celebrate the first of November as all saints day and the second of November as all souls day, I do not see anything set aside for the last day of October however the evening of the last day of October would be all saints eve if that counts for much.
 
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Wandering Cat Lady

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I thought that might be the case. Perhaps it does count as something. I know Halloween was/is technically "Christian" but I've never known Christians of any other denominations celebrating it for what it was meant to be celebrated as.
 
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PaladinValer

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My view is rather than invite into my life, shadows, ghouls, ghosts, death, witches, etc...I prefer to cast them out of my life. You just don't want them hanging around, your life while here on earth.

Shadows aren't evil.
Ghouls don't exist.
Ghosts don't exist.
Stereotypical witches don't exist

As for death, that's a central part of Christianity, so to not invite that is to deny a vital part of the Christian faith.

In the spiritual realm does exist darkness and wickedness, spiritual powers of the enemy, why give or yield to them in any fashion.

It exists here on the material plane as well. What's your point?

Do you want them invading your thought patterns or cause mischief in your life?

There are no forces of the evil one associated with the secular celebration of Halloween. The Devil and his demons are far more insidious than people give them credit for.

Let's glorify God and His great salvation and let His praise be continually in our mouths.

By countering the strong Manichean tendencies in your post, I am.

Tins said:
I thought that might be the case. Perhaps it does count as something. I know Halloween was/is technically "Christian" but I've never known Christians of any other denominations celebrating it for what it was meant to be celebrated as

The Vatican Catholic Church does.
The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox celebrates it the Saturday evening before the Sunday after Whitsun.
The Anglican Communion, the Continuing Churches and other schisms from Anglicanism, Lutherans, Moravians, Old Catholics...all celebrate it. Methodists do too, and I'm sure others as well.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Tins
I thought that might be the case. Perhaps it does count as something.
I know Halloween was/is technically "Christian" but I've never known Christians of any other denominations celebrating it for what it was meant to be celebrated as
The Vatican Catholic Church does.
The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox celebrates it the Saturday evening before the Sunday after Whitsun.
The Anglican Communion, the Continuing Churches and other schisms from Anglicanism, Lutherans, Moravians, Old Catholics...all celebrate it. Methodists do too, and I'm sure others as well.
Perhaps a poll thread should be created on which Christian Denominations celebrate and which one don't. IMHO :groupray:

Btw...HAPPY HALLOWEEN everyone :)

http://www.christianforums.com/t1051554/
Do you celebrate Halloween? [poll thread]

Do you celebrate Halloween? Is it just an opportunity for you to dress up? Do you consider it something that Christians should avoid? Is it harmless, or harmful? What are your thoughts?

View Poll Results: Do you celebrate Halloween?

Yes
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391 43.06%

No
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475 52.31%

I'm not sure
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42 4.63%



.
 
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Tigger45

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Wow sounds like a casual Church but I believe there are some denoms that only allow formal wear(suits and ties for the guys and proper outfits for the ladies) but I could be wrong.
Yeah it's called Congress! :D
 
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ViaCrucis

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The spooky silly stuff that is part of the Eve of All Saints is like the silly stuff that surrounds Easter, Christmas, or St. Valentine's Day.

They are one silly folk traditions that involve harmless fun for children (and many grown ups too), much of which is the result not of anything particularly old or ancient, but quite often entirely modern. And most anymore serve little more than to commercialize and help the candy and greeting card companies make money.

To what level one wants to share in the silliness is up to them. Me? I love silly things. I'm all about the Cadbury cream eggs that come out around Easter. Dressing up as Super Mario or some other video game character on Hallowe'en? I love it. During Christmas? Bring on the eggnog and colorful led lights.

More than that, I actually find meaning in a lot of the folksy stuff. Santa Claus is a modern folk myth that actually comes from the historical St. Nicolas of Myra, a 4th century Christian bishop who was renowned for his generosity. The Feast Day of St. Nicolas, December 6th, was popular in Western Europe. In the Netherlands it became custom for children to leave their shoes outside so that St. Nicolas might leave gifts in them. This is the history behind hanging stockings up on Christmas.

So not only is Santa Claus based on an old Christian saint, but Santa Claus is a fantastic symbol of kindness and generosity. The jolly elf from the north pole is a symbol of joviality, generosity, kindness; things we need more of. I love Santa Claus.

The Christmas tree? A tradition that goes back to the 1400s in Germany, decorated with candles--the light of Christ shining in the dark of the world.

Easter eggs? An old tradition/legend states that St. Mary Magdalene once had the opportunity to preach in Caesar's house, during the meal the Roman emperor scoffed at Mary for speaking of Christ raised from the dead, taking a hard boiled egg and saying, "Your Christ is no more to have been raised than this egg turning red in my hand." At that moment, the egg turned red. The Paschal tradition of dying eggs red is based on this legend, in the West we've adopted dying eggs many different colors, but in the East red is still the tradition.

But what of the spooky stuff? Ghouls, goblins, skeletons, and things that go bump in the night? What meaning can we find in this? Much I think. When we confront the dark and the terrifying with laughter, when we mock that which is emblematic of evil (even if those emblems are themselves purely fictitious) we deny them a place to terrify us. We mock what scares us, we rob it of its psychological capacity to hurt us. The same reason we might laugh at a scary movie.

The devil is not all powerful, he is not worthy of our fear or our admiration. And so we mock him, we mock and scorn all that he might throw our way. We stand boldly in our faith in Christ, withstanding anything he might seek against us. Resisting him, mocking him, he must flee from us.

And if we are not to fear or dread the devils that are real, surely we shouldn't fear the devils that aren't real.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lady Bug

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