Sister Vassa.... duuuuuude

[Dorothea]

Since I’m not Orthodox, I’m a little confused. Aren’t most Ukrainians part of the OCU? So that means most Ukrainians aren’t part of canonical Orthodoxy? Isn’t UOC in communion with Moscow? Do they recognize Constantinople?

(Posting in fellowship)

No. The majority of Ukrainians are part of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church. The schismatic church made up their name, "The Orthodox Church of Ukraine". They are violent, say blasphemous, horrific things against the UOC, and have stolen/seized many UOC property, monasteries, etc. Exactly what E.C. said. I've been following these persecutions for the last few years and report on it on my channel every week or so. Here's an interview with a Ukrainian man by Carlson that came out a couple of days ago:

 

[rusmeister]

When the nationalist Ukrainian Church, blessed by the EP, using the government, laid siege to the Kiev Pecherskiye caves, that gave the game away, that their game is force and violence.

 

[rusmeister]

I’m not Orthodox, but does autocephaly mean they are canonical or no?

(posting in fellowship)

I would add that the EP’s action of granting autocephaly to a schismatic group unilaterally, and especially against the consensus of the other Churches (a clear majority), is certainly uncanonical. It took a group that had been previously acknowledged by all to be schismatic, made THEM (in the eyes of the EP and the convenience of the Ukrainian government, desiring a Church that would do its will as the Russian Church is doing the will of the Russian government) the ”official” Church in the eyes of the government and of the Western powers, who eagerly supported the EP’s action - the world LOVES a Church that does the will of the world - and unceremoniously and uncanonically dismissed the actual canonical Church under Met Onuphry as “schismatic”, simply because it had been under the Russian Church. That Met Onuphry felt driven to declare autonomy in order to make clear that the Church in the Ukraine was NOT a tool of the Russian government is a sad result of these schisms.

 

[RileyG]

No. The majority of Ukrainians are part of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church. The schismatic church made up their name, "The Orthodox Church of Ukraine". They are violent, say blasphemous, horrific things against the UOC, and have stolen/seized many UOC property, monasteries, etc. Exactly what E.C. said. I've been following these persecutions for the last few years and report on it on my channel every week or so. Here's an interview with a Ukrainian man by Carlson that came out a couple of days ago:

Thank you.

Is recognizing the Ecumenical Patriarch a pre-requisite for all the Orthodox faithful?

I get the fact, the Ecumenical Patriarch isn’t the “Orthodox Pope” (the supreme bishop), but first among equals. His status from a historical perspective though is important. Correct?

Anything to add?

 

[RileyG]

I would add that the EP’s action of granting autocephaly to a schismatic group unilaterally, and especially against the consensus of the other Churches (a clear majority), is certainly uncanonical. It took a group that had been previously acknowledged by all to be schismatic, made THEM (in the eyes of the EP and the convenience of the Ukrainian government, desiring a Church that would do its will as the Russian Church is doing the will of the Russian government) the ”official” Church in the eyes of the government and of the Western powers, who eagerly supported the EP’s action - the world LOVES a Church that does the will of the world - and unceremoniously and uncanonically dismissed the actual canonical Church under Met Onuphry as “schismatic”, simply because it had been under the Russian Church. That Met Onuphry felt driven to declare autonomy in order to make clear that the Church in the Ukraine was NOT a tool of the Russian government is a sad result of these schisms.

So, for a final decision, do all the patriarchs have to agree since the EP isn’t above them? All patriarchs are equal.

I understand the EP isn’t the “supreme head” but his office is historically significant?

Who has the final say?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So, for a final decision, do all the patriarchs have to agree since the EP isn’t above them? All patriarchs are equal.

all bishops, not just the patriarchs.

 

[RileyG]

all bishops, not just the patriarchs.

Ok

By bishops….does that include patriarchs, archbishops, bishops?

I don’t know terminology

Care to elaborate?

God bless

 

[RileyG]

Ok

By bishops….does that include patriarchs, archbishops, bishops?

I don’t know terminology

Care to elaborate?

God bless

I don’t know how the Orthodox Church measure out its jurisdiction. I don’t know if they have archdiocese or dioceses. Or other bishops in charge of other bishops.

Forgive my ignorance

 

[ArmyMatt]

By bishops….does that include patriarchs, archbishops, bishops?

yep. the difference is in honor and seniority, not in authority.

 

[E.C.]

That’s news to me. I have heard nothing about that “Vicariate”.

Basically, back in 2018 or so a certain ROCOR priest named, I believe, Alexander Belya had submitted his own name to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church to be considered as a bishop for ROCOR. The problem is that not only would he have had to be submitted through ROCOR first, but he also forged Metropolitan Hilarion's signature on it!

So, he was deposed for disobedience and forgery. He and his son, another deposed priest, took the parish property and went to the Greeks. So, Constantinople formed a "Slavic Vicariate" under the Greek Archdiocese. Archbishop Elpidophoros, idiot he is, submitted the deposed Mr Belya to be the bishop for the Slavic Vicariate knowing full well that he's a deposed priest! The rest of the Orthodox Churches in the US threatened to cut off Communion if the Greeks went through with it. Another parish in the "Vicariate" had a property dispute so they left ROCOR and another had familial relationships with Belya so left ROCOR as well. There have been rumors about him being involved with the Russian Mafia as well, but hell will freeze before ROCOR goes to the civil authorities for anything.

 

[E.C.]

I would add that the EP’s action of granting autocephaly to a schismatic group unilaterally, and especially against the consensus of the other Churches (a clear majority), is certainly uncanonical. It took a group that had been previously acknowledged by all to be schismatic, made THEM (in the eyes of the EP and the convenience of the Ukrainian government, desiring a Church that would do its will as the Russian Church is doing the will of the Russian government) the ”official” Church in the eyes of the government and of the Western powers, who eagerly supported the EP’s action - the world LOVES a Church that does the will of the world - and unceremoniously and uncanonically dismissed the actual canonical Church under Met Onuphry as “schismatic”, simply because it had been under the Russian Church. That Met Onuphry felt driven to declare autonomy in order to make clear that the Church in the Ukraine was NOT a tool of the Russian government is a sad result of these schisms.

Metropolitan Onuphry is a living saint as far as I'm concerned. He's truly living between a rock and a hard place. Politically speaking, he's in a no-win situation. If he declared autocephaly and Russia wins the war, he's cooked. If he stays under Moscow and Ukraine wins the war, he's still cooked. I fear that he will likely experience martyrdom before the war is over.

One need only look at the vandalism that Mr Dumenko's "Church" does to UOC churches they seize to see what their real priorities are. To me, they are worse than Sergianists (though Patriarch Sergius I could at least sympathize with)

 

[Dorothea]

When the nationalist Ukrainian Church, blessed by the EP, using the government, laid siege to the Kiev Pecherskiye caves, that gave the game away, that their game is force and violence.

The fact that they've been using Soviet tactics from nearly the beginning was a big clue as well.

 

[Dorothea]

Whoa!

Basically, back in 2018 or so a certain ROCOR priest named, I believe, Alexander Belya had submitted his own name to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church to be considered as a bishop for ROCOR. The problem is that not only would he have had to be submitted through ROCOR first, but he also forged Metropolitan Hilarion's signature on it!

So, he was deposed for disobedience and forgery. He and his son, another deposed priest, took the parish property and went to the Greeks. So, Constantinople formed a "Slavic Vicariate" under the Greek Archdiocese. Archbishop Elpidophoros, idiot he is, submitted the deposed Mr Belya to be the bishop for the Slavic Vicariate knowing full well that he's a deposed priest! The rest of the Orthodox Churches in the US threatened to cut off Communion if the Greeks went through with it. Another parish in the "Vicariate" had a property dispute so they left ROCOR and another had familial relationships with Belya so left ROCOR as well. There have been rumors about him being involved with the Russian Mafia as well, but hell will freeze before ROCOR goes to the civil authorities for anything.

Whoa! I hadn't heard about that! The GOC has many problems, and Archbishop Elpidophoros is one of them, imo, here in the U.S.

 

[rusmeister]

The fact that they've been using Soviet tactics from nearly the beginning was a big clue as well.

They’re doing the same thing (Soviet tactics) in Russia, too. A big reason why I am living in exile.

 

[Dorothea]

They’re doing the same thing (Soviet tactics) in Russia, too. A big reason why I am living in exile.

Interesting. Well, regardless, Orthodox prophecies say God has anointed Russia to be the antichrist to the antichrist during WWIII - the enemy of the Antichrist (basically the spirit of the antichrist that is prevalent in the West).

 

[rusmeister]

Interesting. Well, regardless, Orthodox prophecies say God has anointed Russia to be the antichrist to the antichrist during WWIII - the enemy of the Antichrist (basically the spirit of the antichrist that is prevalent in the West).

This report in English is accurate.

I want to be clear. I am NOT “anti-Russia”. But people who think that the nation,Putin, the Patriarch, or even the Russian Church are truly Orthodox in the only sense that matters need to take off their rose-colored glasses.
I no longer support any of the sides.

 

[Not David]

she apostatized. I was hoping she would've repented and humbled herself, but she didn't. Her comments in that article are quite prideful/arrogant and very disrespectful. However, I still pray she returns to the church some day and reconciles with it through repentance. Former Sr. Vassa announces apostasy from canonical Orthodoxy, joins state-sponsored Ukrainian schismatics

You know the OCU is recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch, Alexandria, Cyprus & Greece? So calling Sister Vassa "schismatic" is not accurate.

 

[rusmeister]

You know the OCU is recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch, Alexandria, Cyprus & Greece? So calling Sister Vassa "schismatic" is not accurate.

Hi!
Well, if you’re really Antiochian, then your jurisdiction doesn’t recognize the OCU either. Are you at odds with your own communion on this one?

I’d note that the only one of any real significance in that short list is Greece. The other Churches are miniscule. The weight of worldwide consensus is pretty solidly against acknowledging the OCU. Majorities are not always right. But extremely often, they are, and that’s why we have results from Ecumenical Councils.

 

[Not David]

Hi!
Well, if you’re really Antiochian, then your jurisdiction doesn’t recognize the OCU either. Are you at odds with your own communion on this one?

I’d note that the only one of any real significance in that short list is Greece. The other Churches are miniscule. The weight of worldwide consensus is pretty solidly against acknowledging the OCU. Majorities are not always right. But extremely often, they are, and that’s why we have results from Ecumenical Councils.

The Church of Antioch's view is having a Orthodox Council to resolve the situation, so I would refrain from thinking of anyone in Communion with the OCU as non-Orthodox.

 

[E.C.]

You know the OCU is recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch, Alexandria, Cyprus & Greece? So calling Sister Vassa "schismatic" is not accurate.

More importantly, Jerusalem and even Mt Athos do not recognize those fascists. Jerusalem may be small, but her influence counts.


The Albanian Orthodox Church does not recognize those people either and actually wrote two very well statements about it and why:

The Concern Regarding the Ukrainian Ecclesiastical Issue by the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania - Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania

Translated from Greek The Concern Regarding the Ukrainian Ecclesiastical Issueby the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania The Holy Synod of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania convened on the 4th of January, 2019, and studied in depth the letter of His All Holiness the Ecumenical...

orthodoxalbania.org

On the Ukrainian Ecclesiastical Question. 2nd Reply. Speaking the Truth in Love - Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania

Translated from Greek On the Ukrainian Ecclesiastical Question. 2nd Reply. Speaking the Truth in Love After the information (of 26.3.2019) that the Italian translation of the Patriarchal Letter of 9.3.2019 was inserted within the “category of texts of Dogmatic and Symbolic Theology” it was...

orthodoxalbania.org

For what it is worth, I like the approach the OCA took: she studied the matter. The robber council happened in December 2018, yet the OCA did not release a statement until partway through 2019 (I think right as Lent was beginning) because rather than make a knee-jerk reaction like the hot-headed Greeks and reactionary Russians did, the OCA took the time to study the matter in depth. She deemed the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphry as canonical and has supported her since.