Sinning Willfully, a study in Hebrews

Grip Docility · Jul 10, 2024

guevaraj said:
Brother, the Spirit Paul speaks of is external to us in Jesus

Are you saying that the very Holy Spirit of Christ does not Dwell in your Soul?

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'

Ephesians 1:13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 10, 2024

Grip Docility said:
The Universal Holy Church celebrates the day that Jesus Rose from the dead. The Apostles met in the upper room to worship on the 1st day of the week.

Acts 20:7 "On the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart [from Troas] on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight"

Were the apostles wrong?

The Mother church which all gatherings are daughters of, were celebrating the Resurrections of Jesus. Was that wrong?

Protestants use extra biblical Prophets and Extra Canonical Commentaries to interpret scripture. How is that different?

I thought that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath? Mark 2:27

Should we judge our brethren in Jesus Christ based on which day they esteem?

I count Catholics and Protestants my brethren in Jesus Christ that are saved by the Blood of Jesus. Do you?

Gods Law is Given from Deuteronomy 4 - Deuteronomy 31:26

In it, Moses, by God's behest ORDERS that the Law must Never be Added to or Subtracted from. (Deuteronomy 4:2)

With respect, it is "Changing the Law" far more aggressively to say that Portions of the very Law that Jesus said No Jot or Tittle would be removed from it until Heaven and earth Pass away.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Moses, under God's authority, Does not finish this Law, which he ardently commands to NOT ADD TO, NOR TAKE FROM IT, until here;
Deuteronomy 31:24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: 26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

Who's authority separates the 10 Commandments contained in Chapter 5 from all other Laws contained in Chapter's 4 to 31:26?

The author of Hebrews most certainly places the 10 Commandments in the First (Old Covenant).

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.... 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

Who's Authority is overriding Jesus who said He FULFILLED the LAW?
Who's Authority is overriding Moses's command to not add or subtract?
Who's Authority is placing what the author of Hebrews deems obsolete into the New Covenant?

Obedience left the Israelites in desolation.
Jesus Saves.
If Obedience saves us, why did Jesus die?

Are you calling the Catholic Church the Beast? According to the Bible, they are Saved by Jesus' Blood. They meet John's standards of Belief, by their admission that the Son is of and from the Father.

The oil of the Lamp is the Holy Spirit of Christ. Only by Christ's life of righteousness in place of our dead works are we saved. We have PUT ON CHRIST. If we don't depend only on this, we are refusing His WEDDING Garment.

Babylon is not a Christian System. The Anti-Christ you are referring to must not be of a "Religion of their fathers, the desire of women and such forth"

The Desire of Women was the MESSIAH. All Jewish Women desired to be the Mother of the Messiah. This means Christians can't meet that standard.

Are you using extra biblical sources to add to the interpretation of all of this?

Not one scripture where God says we don't have to obey His commandments. Even the "Universal Holy Church" claims changing the Sabbath commandment, did not come from scripture, but based on their own authority.

Jesus never told anyone after He rose to now make that a new day of worship instead of keeping the Sabbath. That is man writing into God's Word- something we are told not to do Pro 30:5-6

Jesus said heaven and earth would pass before one jot or tittle can pass from His law, heaven and earth are still here and Jesus has not come in the clouds so not ALL has been fulfilled.

Most of what you wrote is just repeats and discussing what has already been discussed is not going to help anyone.

Believe what you want, we have free will, for me I will serve the Lord the way He commands, because He is my Authority.

Grip Docility · Jul 10, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
Not one scripture where God says we don't have to obey His commandments.

Jesus never told anyone after He rose to now make that a new day of worship instead of keeping the Sabbath. That is man writing into God's Word- something we are told not to do Pro 30:5-6

Jesus said heaven and earth would pass before one jot or tittle can pass from His law, and heaven and earth are still here and Jesus has not come in the clouds so not ALL has been fulfilled.

Believe what you want, we have free will, for me I will serve the Lord the way He commandments, because He is my Authority.

I genuinely appreciate your answer. Is there any reason that you passed over a majority of my questions and remaining post?

SabbathBlessings said:
This is such an important question and really gets to the heart of the situation we are in today. Who is our Authority?

So, TODAY is not "Today"?

SabbathBlessings said:
On God's Authority this is how God answers this question - He not only spoke these Words- He personally wrote them with His own finger. Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Whose Authority is this? He tells us right in the Sabbath commandment

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The Authority of the Sabbath is the God of Creation. God commanded us to Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, because He never wants us to forget who made us- God- the Creator- who Sanctifies us Eze 20:12- God, the Creator and who is the God of all heaven and earth. When we obey this commandment, we are acknowledging that this God is our God and we are His people and a sign that He is our Authority Eze 20:20

Is there a system who thinks to change God's times and laws based on their authority? Dan 7:25 That the whole world would wander (follow) after?

There is and they take credit for this change. What do they say on the matter? Who do they say is the authority over God's commandment and His Word?

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

The Universal Holy Church celebrates the day that Jesus Rose from the dead. The Apostles met in the upper room to worship on the 1st day of the week.

Acts 20:7 "On the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart [from Troas] on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight"

Were the apostles wrong?

SabbathBlessings said:
Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

The Mother church which all gatherings are daughters of, were celebrating the Resurrections of Jesus. Was that wrong?

SabbathBlessings said:
Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

Protestants use extra biblical Prophets and Extra Canonical Commentaries to interpret scripture. How is that different?

SabbathBlessings said:
If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.
—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

I thought that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath? Mark 2:27

Should we judge our brethren in Jesus Christ based on which day they esteem?

SabbathBlessings said:
Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

I count Catholics and Protestants my brethren in Jesus Christ that are saved by the Blood of Jesus. Do you?

SabbathBlessings said:
It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.
—Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

Changing God's law, just as predicted based on their authority over God's Authority. Who is our Authority?

Gods Law is Given from Deuteronomy 4 - Deuteronomy 31:26

In it, Moses, by God's behest ORDERS that the Law must Never be Added to or Subtracted from. (Deuteronomy 4:2)

With respect, it is "Changing the Law" far more aggressively to say that Portions of the very Law that Jesus said No Jot or Tittle would be removed from it until Heaven and earth Pass away, have been SUBTRACTED from.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Moses, under God's authority, Does not finish this Law, which he ardently commands to NOT ADD TO, NOR TAKE FROM IT, until here;
Deuteronomy 31:24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: 26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

Who's authority separates the 10 Commandments contained in Chapter 5 from all other Laws contained in Chapter's 4 to 31:26?

The author of Hebrews most certainly places the 10 Commandments in the First (Old Covenant).

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.... 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

Who's Authority is overriding Jesus who said He FULFILLED the LAW?
Who's Authority is overriding Moses's command to not add or subtract?
Who's Authority is placing what the author of Hebrews deems obsolete into the New Covenant?

SabbathBlessings said:
This is who Jesus told us to obey....

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; only found in the Ten Commandments

6.And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

So do we obey God the way He asks- or obey another. If we love Jesus keep His commandments, by default we are worshipping someone else.

Obedience left the Israelites in desolation.
Jesus Saves.
If Obedience saves us, why did Jesus die?

SabbathBlessings said:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Are you calling the Catholic Church the Beast? According to the Bible, they are Saved by Jesus' Blood. They meet John's standards of Belief, by their admission that the Son is of and from the Father.

SabbathBlessings said:
And the antidote in the next verse:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The oil of the Lamp is the Holy Spirit of Christ. Only by Christ's life of righteousness in place of our dead works are we saved. We have PUT ON CHRIST. If we don't depend only on this, we are refusing His WEDDING Garment.

SabbathBlessings said:
No wonder why we are told:

Rev 18:4 4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Babylon is not a Christian System. The Anti-Christ you are referring to must not be of a "Religion of their fathers, the desire of women and such forth"

The Desire of Women was the MESSIAH. All Jewish Women desired to be the Mother of the Messiah. This means Christians can't meet that standard.

Are you using extra biblical sources to add to the interpretation of all of this?

All of this is my opinion, expressed...

SabbathBlessings · Jul 10, 2024

Grip Docility said:
I genuinely appreciate your answer. Is there any reason that you passed over a majority of my questions and remaining post?

So, TODAY is not "Today"?

The Universal Holy Church celebrates the day that Jesus Rose from the dead. The Apostles met in the upper room to worship on the 1st day of the week.

Acts 20:7 "On the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart [from Troas] on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight"

Were the apostles wrong?

The Mother church which all gatherings are daughters of, were celebrating the Resurrections of Jesus. Was that wrong?

Protestants use extra biblical Prophets and Extra Canonical Commentaries to interpret scripture. How is that different?

I thought that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath? Mark 2:27

Should we judge our brethren in Jesus Christ based on which day they esteem?

I count Catholics and Protestants my brethren in Jesus Christ that are saved by the Blood of Jesus. Do you?

Gods Law is Given from Deuteronomy 4 - Deuteronomy 31:26

In it, Moses, by God's behest ORDERS that the Law must Never be Added to or Subtracted from. (Deuteronomy 4:2)

With respect, it is "Changing the Law" far more aggressively to say that Portions of the very Law that Jesus said No Jot or Tittle would be removed from it until Heaven and earth Pass away, have been SUBTRACTED from.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Moses, under God's authority, Does not finish this Law, which he ardently commands to NOT ADD TO, NOR TAKE FROM IT, until here;
Deuteronomy 31:24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: 26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

Who's authority separates the 10 Commandments contained in Chapter 5 from all other Laws contained in Chapter's 4 to 31:26?

The author of Hebrews most certainly places the 10 Commandments in the First (Old Covenant).

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.... 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

Who's Authority is overriding Jesus who said He FULFILLED the LAW?
Who's Authority is overriding Moses's command to not add or subtract?
Who's Authority is placing what the author of Hebrews deems obsolete into the New Covenant?

Obedience left the Israelites in desolation.
Jesus Saves.
If Obedience saves us, why did Jesus die?

Are you calling the Catholic Church the Beast? According to the Bible, they are Saved by Jesus' Blood. They meet John's standards of Belief, by their admission that the Son is of and from the Father.

The oil of the Lamp is the Holy Spirit of Christ. Only by Christ's life of righteousness in place of our dead works are we saved. We have PUT ON CHRIST. If we don't depend only on this, we are refusing His WEDDING Garment.

Babylon is not a Christian System. The Anti-Christ you are referring to must not be of a "Religion of their fathers, the desire of women and such forth"

The Desire of Women was the MESSIAH. All Jewish Women desired to be the Mother of the Messiah. This means Christians can't meet that standard.

Are you using extra biblical sources to add to the interpretation of all of this?

All of this is my opinion, expressed...

Today is about hearing His voice - TODAY not being in rebellion to God TODAY, as already shown you what Heb 4 is quoting verbatim - Hebrews 3 from Psa 95. What it does not say is- today is the Sabbath countermanding God, so adding what's not there, not a good idea. God already defined when is the Sabbath in clear easy to understand Words Exo 20:10 written by His Authority which there is no greater Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18 - best to let God be God.

Again most we have gone through- unless we understand the differences of the New Covenant- established on better promises, not established on "new laws" as most teach Heb 8:6-10 and understand what these better promises are, will never understand the New Covenant. Its been addressed previously, so probably won’t make sense to go through again.

Anti- Christ means in place of Christ so yes, it is very much a "religious" system. Mixed with clay and Iron- both religious and beast (kingdom/government) . Power given to them by the dragon, Which is why it deceives the whole world- the majority. Revelation 12:9 If it was obvious, it wouldn't be so deadly, it is obvious for those who are grounded in God's Word- which is why we are taught going away from the law and prophets is danger Isa 8:10 Mat15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 7:21-23 1 John 2:3-6 Rev 22:14-15 etc.

Until you can provide one scripture that God says we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment, which there is none, for me I will keep, only He is my Authority Eze 20:20 only He sanctifies Eze 20:12, no one else. He personally gave the commandment, only He can remove His blessing Num 23:20 and all of the thus saith the Lords in scripture about the Sabbath and there are many He says for us to keep and not profane.

Anway, we can agree to disagree, all gets sorted out soon enough.

Grip Docility · Jul 10, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
Today is about hearing His voice - TODAY not being in rebellion to God TODAY, as already shown you what Heb 4 is quoting verbatim - Hebrews 3 from Psa 95. What it does not say is- today is the Sabbath countermanding God, so adding what's not there, not a good idea. Pro 30:5-6. God already defined the Sabbath in clear easy to understand words Exo 20:10- best to let God be God.

Again most we have gone through- unless we understand the differences of the New Covenant- established on better promises, not established on "new laws" as most teach Heb 8:6-10 and understand what these better promises are, will never understand the New Covenant. Its been addressed, going through it again I don't think will make any difference.

Anti- Christ means in place of Christ so yes, it is very much a "religious" system. Mixed with potter and Iron. Power given to them by the dragon, Which is why it deceives the whole world- the majority. Revelation 12:9 If it was obvious, it wouldn't be so deadly, it is obvious for those who are grounded in God's Word- which is why we are taught going away from the law and prophets is danger Isa 8:10

Until you can provide one scripture that God says we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment, which there is none, for me I will keep, only He is my Authority, no one else. He gave it only He can remove His blessing and all of the thus saith the Lords in scripture about the Sabbath and there are many He says for us to keep and not profane.

Anway, we can agree to disagree, all gets sorted out soon enough.

I agree to disagree with you, in the Love of Jesus Christ, Sibling in Him.

Gary K · Jul 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
I’m so loaded with scripture and conviction on this, I don’t really have to stress.

The scripture is there. Matthew 23 is a good start. Those that look down on others as sinners that don’t meet their standards of HOW TO BE righteous in the flesh are the centerpiece of condemnation scripture.

Easy starting point;

The Parable about the Tax Collector and the Pharisee.

We don't need theology to understand the Bible. Just read the words of Jesus as they are written and the truth becomes exceedingly obvious.

Jesus spent 3 1/2 years teaching the Pharisees and giving them opportunity after opportunity to repent and accept him. Compare that to Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Their arrogant moral revolt ended in their immediate death. Their revolt was triggered by the Israelites refusing to enter the promised land and God's judgment that they would all die in the wilderness for which they blamed Moses and Aaron.

Here is how Jesus treated the Pharisees thousands of years later. Who was given the chance to repent?

Matthew 23: 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Grip Docility · Jul 11, 2024

Gary K said:
We don't need theology to understand the Bible. Just read the words of Jesus as they are written and the truth becomes exceedingly obvious.

Jesus spent 3 1/2 years teaching the Pharisees and giving them opportunity after opportunity to repent and accept him. Compare that to Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Their arrogant moral revolt ended in their immediate death. Their revolt was triggered by the Israelites refusing to enter the promised land and God's judgment that they would all die in the wilderness for which they blamed Moses and Aaron.

Here is how Jesus treated the Pharisees thousands of years later. Who was given the chance to repent?

Matthew 23: 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Whenever I am thinking about all of this, and what it means, I hear Paul’s anguished words;

Romans 9:3 For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood

Gary K · Jul 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Whenever I am thinking about all of this, and what it means, I hear Paul’s anguished words;

Romans 9:3 For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood

What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't even come close to addressing what I said.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Jul 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Whenever I am thinking about all of this, and what it means, I hear Paul’s anguished words;

Romans 9:3 For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood

It really shows how much he loved his fellow Jewish brethren. Though I feel some of that anguish myself in this conversation (and other conversations of similar nature), I relate more to the sentiment he expressed against those who were leading his fellow Christians away from Christ...

I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! (Ga 5:12)

NewLifeInChristJesus · Jul 11, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
I have seen people who thinks all we need to do is 'believe' in Jesus, but not live how He asks. While we are not saved by our works, the concept is actually silly, like we can save ourselves, we all need a SAVIOR, good works is a consequence of salvation Rev 22:14 not a means to it.

Which is why we are called to be doers of God's Word, not just hearers.

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty (James 2:10-12) and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

We have been called to liberty (Ga 5:13). When we don't continue in it, we are forgetful hearers and not doers. Living free of the law does not give us license to indulge the flesh (Ga 5:13). It just means that there is no condemnation for our faults (Ro 8:1), that our consciences are clear (Heb 10:22), and that we are able to serve Him in the newness of the Spirit instead of the oldness of the letter of the law (Ro 7:6).

SabbathBlessings said:
The fruits of the spirit violates no laws. There is no condemnation of the law if one is keeping it, this is what Paul is teaching, not that there is no law, and we can no go murder, worship other gods, break God's Sabbath etc. and sin Rom 7:7 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12

He is teaching what Jesus taught...

Jesus puts it this way........ He starts by teaching we are not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments quoting from the Ten Commandments and used two as examples to be applied to the others, to show how we are to keep them.

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. A good read on Mat 15:1-14 will show what the Pharisees were doing, similar to what many teach today, that we can keep our own rules in lieu of God's commandments, which Jesus condemned and our righteousness must exceed the Pharisees or we will be no means see heaven.

And Jesus quotes right from the Ten as an example of the commandments we are not to break the least of....as one would be in fear of sin and Judgement

Mat 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[f] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Is Jesus teaching that we can literally murder as long as we don't have anger in our hearts.? Quite the opposite- He is magnifying His law that not only should we not literally murder, we should not even have those thoughts in our hearts that lead to murder. If Jesus changes us from the inside out, thoughts of anger towards our neighbor will be changed to thoughts of compassion and thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept.

I suppose the concept of sinless perfection could satisfy the paradigm you have created. Are you saying that sinless perfection is the standard we satisfy if we are really saved?

SabbathBlessings said:
If we are literally breaking the commandments, than we are not walking in the spirit because the spirit of the law is greater, not lessor....as sadly most teach.

That's a new one... changing "the Spirit of God" to "the spirit of the law", turning "walking in the Spirit" into "obeying the spirit of the law". How in the world did you come up with that?

SabbathBlessings said:
Why Jesus said not to break or teach others to break the least of these- because we would be in fear of sin and Judgement -as Paul says if we are hostile to God's law- it really is not a good sign Rom 8:7-8

Jesus wants everyone to be saved, but not everyone accepts this free gift.

I think John makes this point very clear..,,

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Most people stop here but John doesn't...

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John makes the clear distinction that believing in Jesus is related to our obedience to Him. Those who choose to do evil (sin) does not come to the light because their deeds are evil, but we are called to come to the truth (light) so our deeds can be exposed. This is what the Ten Commandments does- it shows us our sin just like a mirror. When we bury our sins (stay in darkness) we don't confess or forsake them and therefore God can't give us His mercy and grace and give us the power to help overcome. Proverbs 28:13 Those who seek God want to come to the Truth Psa 119:151 so Jesus can help us overcome our sins. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 not in sin.

Jesus in His own Words tells us that it's more than just believing...

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord [believer],’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Believing is a great first step but as our love for Jesus grows, we should want to obey Him through faith and love. Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6

Believing and trusting God is a large part of faith, which would of course include obeying what He asks, including His law. I find it odd anyone would object to this. John 14:15 Exo 20:6

You seem to want to question what God asks, as if we know better than He.

How would of that worked out for all the heroes in scriptures- if you read Hebrews 11- you will see they all obeyed God. Disobedience is rebellion and leads to separation Isa 59:2, faith and obedience leads to reconciliation Rev 22:14. People think sin is just "murder" "adultery" but its actually breaking any of the Ten Commandments including telling/living a lie. When we break any of the commandments, there is no truth in us 1 John 2:4 and according to scripture that can separate us Rev 22:15 if we don't seek Jesus for His forgiveness and help in overcoming.

Jesus desires our obedience over sacrifice 1 Samuel 15:22Yes, we have a merciful and forgiving Father, but when He heals He says Go and sin no more. Why do you think Jesus wants us to be a slave to sin? We are either a servant to Christ or a slave to sin, one path leads to eternal life, the other down the wrong way Rom 6:16

Yes, the Stakes are High, eternal life with Jesus. I would not want to hear these Words when Jesus comes Mat 7:21-23

But instead these Words...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Which is why we are taught....
1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

I give you a "A-" for your defense of law-based salvation. It would have been an "A+" if you had included just one more concept found in three additional verses...

...it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Pe 1:16)
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48)
“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” (Ga 3:10)

If you had just included the concept that partial obedience, partial perfection, and partial holiness is not acceptable to God, you would have nailed it.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 11, 2024

B Griffin said:
We have been called to liberty (Ga 5:13). When we don't continue in it, we are forgetful hearers and not doers. Living free of the law does not give us license to indulge the flesh (Ga 5:13). It just means that there is no condemnation for our faults (Ro 8:1), that our consciences are clear (Heb 10:22), and that we are able to serve Him in the newness of the Spirit instead of the oldness of the letter of the law (Ro 7:6).

It was already addressed what this means by the teaching of Jesus.

Can you please tell me from the Ten Commandments, what commandment can we literally break and be in Christ?

Paul and Jesus are not teaching we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments, living by the Spirit is GREATER than living by the letter and Jesus demonstrated what this means. He doesn't even want us to think about sinning in our hearts, yet alone actually doing it. If He changes our thoughts, being in newness to Him would we be worshipping other gods, stealing, coveting or breaking the least of these commandments? Is this how we serve Him in newness? By violating everything He asks of us. No, He wants to change our thoughts to love and in doing so every one of the literal commandments would be kept. Its why love fulfills (fills-full) the commandments 1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 Rom 13:9, not deletes them as most teach.

B Griffin said:
I suppose the concept of sinless perfection could satisfy the paradigm you have created. Are you saying that sinless perfection is the standard we satisfy if we are really saved?

Can you show me where we are saved in our sins? Do you not believe the power of Jesus can keep someone from sinning? Does the devil have more power than God to keep one in sin than Jesus does to save us from sin? It's not what I believe. I believe all things are possible through Christ, even overcoming sin. That doesn't mean if we slip and fall, we don't have an Advocate in Jesus when we confess and repent but someone in Christ should not be living in perpetual sin. Sin should be painful and if it's not I would spend more time in prayer asking Jesus for His help with our sins.

B Griffin said:
That's a new one... changing "the Spirit of God" to "the spirit of the law", turning "walking in the Spirit" into "obeying the spirit of the law". How in the world did you come up with that?

You don't understand the concept of the spirit of the law verse the letter? Walking in the Spirit one would not be doing this:

Rom 8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Arguing against what God commands is not how we serve Christ. We are commissioned to live just as Christ lived. Did He keep the commandments? Did He teach we didn't have to keep them? Not once. If we are in Christ He imputes His righteousness and its the same righteousness of how He lived and taught, so if we are rebelling against His teachings and example, and are not subject to the law of God nor indeed can be, I would really consider the direction one is going. Jesus talks about this Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19 Mat 19:17-19 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 7:21-23

B Griffin said:
I give you a "A-" for your defense of law-based salvation. It would have been an "A+" if you had included just one more concept found in three additional verses...

...it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Pe 1:16)

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48)

“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” (Ga 3:10)

If you had just included the concept that partial obedience, partial perfection, and partial holiness is not acceptable to God, you would have nailed it.

Exactly where have I taught partial obedience, partial perfection, and partial holiness? I don't recall this as something I have ever taught. We need both the faith in Jesus and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12 What faith did Jesus have? How did He live? Did He do some of the things people are teaching here, that we do not have obey His commandments? Where is that verse? Did He not keep the commandments? He said He did. Jesus is our perfect example to follow. He died for our sins and lived to show us the WAY and led by example, our example to follow 1John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22. Keep our eyes on Jesus follow Him, follow His teaching, He will only lead us down the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

Grip Docility · Jul 11, 2024

Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
1 John 4:9,10 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

SabbathBlessings · Jul 11, 2024

No one is saying Jesus didn't die while we were still sinners. When He brings us to Him, does He leave us in our sinful state? Why people fight against Christ sanctification, or doing what He asks because we love Him or follow the example that He lived for us, what are people really fighting against? They want the blessings of Christ, but do they really want Christ, because if in Christ- we would not be living in the flesh, but living in His Spirit and His righteousness, which is how HE lived, all to be our example. 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22 He doesn't want us to just hear His teachings, He wants us to do them not to be saved because that is how one who is saved lives. Rev 14:12

When we start arguing against what Christ taught, lived and asks- seems like a dangerous spot to be in.

Grip Docility · Jul 11, 2024

Luke 18:13 "O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner"

1 Timothy 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

Psalm 25:11 For your name's sake, O Lord, pardon my guilt, for it is great.

Matthew 9:13 Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

Psalm 1:30:3,4 If you, O Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness, that you may be feared.

Grip Docility · Jul 11, 2024

Jacob had to dress up like "Esau" to receive His Father's Blessing. Jacob's Father was blind to Jacob's true form. Jacob was blessed because he boldly stepped before His Father as THE CHILD THAT WAS TO BE BLESSED.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ like a garment.
Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

SabbathBlessings · Jul 11, 2024

The merry go round.

Gary K · Jul 11, 2024

B Griffin said:
It really shows how much he loved his fellow Jewish brethren. Though I feel some of that anguish myself in this conversation (and other conversations of similar nature), I relate more to the sentiment he expressed against those who were leading his fellow Christians away from Christ...

I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! (Ga 5:12)

In other words, you're just going to ignore everything in my post.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Jul 12, 2024

Gary K said:
In other words, you're just going to ignore everything in my post.

I'll go back and look at it Gary.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Jul 12, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
It was already addressed what this means by the teaching of Jesus.

Can you please tell me from the Ten Commandments, what commandment can we literally break and be in Christ?

Paul and Jesus are not teaching we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments, living by the Spirit is GREATER than living by the letter and Jesus demonstrated what this means. He doesn't even want us to think about sinning in our hearts, yet alone actually doing it. If He changes our thoughts, being in newness to Him would we be worshipping other gods, stealing, coveting or breaking the least of these commandments? Is this how we serve Him in newness? By violating everything He asks of us. No, He wants to change our thoughts to love and in doing so every one of the literal commandments would be kept. Its why love fulfills (fills-full) the commandments 1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 Rom 13:9, not deletes them as most teach.

Can you show me where we are saved in our sins? Do you not believe the power of Jesus can keep someone from sinning? Does the devil have more power than God to keep one in sin than Jesus does to save us from sin? It's not what I believe. I believe all things are possible through Christ, even overcoming sin. That doesn't mean if we slip and fall, we don't have an Advocate in Jesus when we confess and repent but someone in Christ should not be living in perpetual sin. Sin should be painful and if it's not I would spend more time in prayer asking Jesus for His help with our sins.

You don't understand the concept of the spirit of the law verse the letter? Walking in the Spirit one would not be doing this:

Rom 8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Arguing against what God commands is not how we serve Christ. We are commissioned to live just as Christ lived. Did He keep the commandments? Did He teach we didn't have to keep them? Not once. If we are in Christ He imputes His righteousness and its the same righteousness of how He lived and taught, so if we are rebelling against His teachings and example, and are not subject to the law of God nor indeed can be, I would really consider the direction one is going. Jesus talks about this Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19 Mat 19:17-19 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 7:21-23

Exactly where have I taught partial obedience, partial perfection, and partial holiness? I don't recall this as something I have ever taught. We need both the faith in Jesus and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12 What faith did Jesus have? How did He live? Did He do some of the things people are teaching here, that we do not have obey His commandments? Where is that verse? Did He not keep the commandments? He said He did. Jesus is our perfect example to follow. He died for our sins and lived to show us the WAY and led by example, our example to follow 1John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22. Keep our eyes on Jesus follow Him, follow His teaching, He will only lead us down the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

People who "slip and fall" are not holy as God is holy or perfect as God is perfect and they have failed to obey the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. So this is the crack in your doctrine of rightness with God through obedience to the law that may help you out of it. Just don't waste it by thinking confession and repentance earns you a way back to rightness with God so that you can pick up the law again to obey it. If you do, the law will break you again. That the purpose of the law and it will not fail.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 12, 2024

B Griffin said:
People who "slip and fall" are not holy as God is holy or perfect as God is perfect and they have failed to obey the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. So this is the crack in your doctrine of rightness with God through obedience to the law that may help you out of it. Just don't waste it by thinking confession and repentance earns you a way back to rightness with God so that you can pick up the law again to obey it. If you do, the law will break you again. That the purpose of the law and it will not fail.

Sure they are because someone who is righteous will always get back up. Proverbs 24:16 Its the unrighteousness that stop trying, that think they can't overcome sin and obey through Jesus Christ, basically making their devil bigger than their God.

Someone who is in Christ will not live in perpetual sin, if they slip and fall they get back up and ask for God's help -His forgiveness, mercy and sanctification (change of direction) Once Jesus heals, He cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 and tells us to go and sin no more.

Scripture promises He has a people who overcome

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Sinning Willfully, a study in Hebrews

What is meant by sinning willfully?

Sin in general

Not doing anything God wants us to through Christ

Something else? If so explain through the context of the passage.

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