Sinning Willfully, a study in Hebrews

[SabbathBlessings]

That's a wierd thing to say.

“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Mt 12:33–37)​

Sin comes from the heart. How can anyone think that the things that come out of an evil heart can make a person clean?

You seem to be making arguments I am not making., nor have ever made. Who said anything about our heart can make someone clean? The only way we can be made clean is through the righteousness of Christ. Also, we can’t make the tree good, we only receive good fruit when we are part of the branch of Christ. Without Him we are nothing.

The truth of the matter is that when a person sins, it shows that the heart from which it came is not good, not holy, not righteous.

Agreed, so not sure why anyone would argue over obeying God’s law and sinning which is unholy and unrighteousness and still claim to be in Christ.

It is not as though Christ makes us holy and righteous, then we lose it when we stumble and fall, then we gain it back again by repentance, then lose it again when we stumble and fall again. When we receive grace, should be continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!!!! Rom 6:1-2

Sin separates us from God Isa 59:2 if we are in Christ and stumble that does not mean we automatically lose our righteousness with Him, but if we do not do something about unrepented sin we absolutely can be cut off from Christ- covering sin is the opposite of what we are told Pro 28:13. Someone in Christ would not let that happen. If sin doesn’t bother one, which is breaking God’s law, we need to consider the direction we are going. Two choices Rom 6:16. Sin as I stated should be painful, because it hurts our relationship with Christ- someone in Christ would not be living in perpetual sin and if they do stumble, being on our knees is the first thing we should do praying for forgiveness and His help to overcome. If we feel no remorse for sin and feel no need to humble ourselves before the Lord, I would consider some deeper fellowship with Christ on this matter.

No. The righteousness and holiness that a person has when Jesus comes to live in their heart is "true righteousness and holiness" and cannot be corrupted by sin, just as Jesus can not be corrupted by sin. And it is not gained by an evil heart promising God it won't be evil any more.

So are you saying a righteousness man can never fall? Hmmm, thats not the examples of scriptures, there were lots of righteous men who fell in scripture and they all had one thing in common, that put them back in favor with Christ and that is they repented and turned from their sin, just as Jesus taught.

Though you speak of it, you do not seem to understand that a person's flesh and spirit/Spirit are in adversarial opposition to one another. If you don't understand it, you will never understand that sin comes from the flesh and seals its fate, but righteousness comes from the spirit/Spirit and seals its fate.

It’s best never to make assumptions, as my mom used to say to me, you point a finger at someone and you have three fingers pointing back at you.

Paul sums up living by the spirit versus living by the flesh very nicely.

Rom 8: 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The problem I think most have is they want to be walking in the Spirit, but continue in their life of sin (breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30) and don’t see how those are at odds with each other i.e. hence the warning nor indeed can be. They want Christ, but they want Him on their terms and I don’t think thats going to work out so well in the end.

If one is in Christ, we would have His righteousness imputed to us and would be living in harmony with how He lived, having faith in His teachings such as Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 Isa 56:1-6 Mat 2:27, Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 and definitely would not be arguing over if we need to obey God’s commandments or live how Jesus lived, who obeyed them and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6

The crack I mentioned was to show you in your doctrine the way of escape, much like when Paul used the inscription "to the unknown God" to help the Athenians.

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (Ro 3:31)​

I’m not sure how this verse helps your case- you been arguing that we don’t have to keep God’s law, but Paul makes clear faith establishes the law, not deletes it as so many people teach.

No one can trust in Christ that He is willing and able to forgive their many sins and exempt them for God's wrath without first knowing and understanding that their many sins make them guilty before God and that they are worthy of the punishment they seek to avoid. And I would add that faith also voids works in the same manner because no one can rest all their weight on Christ while holding out hope that there is some redeeming quality in his own worthinness of God's mercy.

Of course. We don’t deserve His mercy and grace, which is why we needs to praise Him, thank Him, humble ourselves before Him and obey what He asks of us and trust what He asks if for our own good.

 

[Grip Docility]

Then maybe you should address the posts I have directed to you.

I have expressed many times, now, that I am under Conviction of Jesus Christ about this discussion. This is now 4 or more times that you are ignoring my conviction. I have told you specifically that Jesus Christ has convicted me on not discussing what you are asking me to discuss in this type of conversation.

May I ask you by who's authority you desire to violate the conviction of your Brother in Jesus Christ?

 

[HIM]

No. I politely, yet specifically and with conviction disagree. The NOMOS of sin and death is contrary to the Law of Love, in the Spirit.

Alone. In my opinion.

The Nomos of sin and death is not the Law of Moses. Who told you that blasphemous lie?

If the Law is in our heart and mind. His Word in our hearts and mouths then we are what we beheld.

 

[Grip Docility]

The Nomos of sin and death is not the Law of Moses. Who told you that blasphemous lie?

If the Law is in our heart and mind. His Word in our hearts and mouths then we are what we beheld.

2nd Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not stare at the end of what was fading away, 14 but their minds were closed. For to this day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains; it is not lifted, because it is set aside only in Christ. 15 Even to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts,

Oh Death, the one with the Power of Death, the Devil, where is your sting (Serpent Strike), Devil, where is your victory? The Serpent strike of the Devil is Sin and the Power (Venom) of the Devil is the LAW (NOMOS/Moses).

A New command I give you; Love one another as I have Loved you. Love one another as you Love yourselves, who are now the very Body of He Who purchased you with His very Blood and dwells within you.

 

[HIM]

2nd Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not stare at the end of what was fading away, 14 but their minds were closed. For to this day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains; it is not lifted, because it is set aside only in Christ. 15 Even to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts,

WOW! You said the Law of sin and death was the Law of Moses. The Law of sin and death is ONLY mentioned in Romans 8 not 2 Corinthians. This is not hopscotch.

 

[Grip Docility]

WOW! You said the Law of sin and death was the Law of Moses. The Law of sin and death is ONLY mentioned in Romans 8 not 2 Corinthians. This is not hopscotch.

Paul wrote both books. It's exegetical and hermeneutical honesty to acknowledge this. In my Opinion. I don't appreciate the insinuation, but understand your perspective. Thank you for sharing your conviction. The following is my conviction and opinion.

Hebrews 3:1 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

​

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

[HIM]

2nd Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not stare at the end of what was fading away, 14 but their minds were closed. For to this day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains; it is not lifted, because it is set aside only in Christ. 15 Even to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts,

Oh Death, the one with the Power of Death, the Devil, where is your sting (Serpent Strike), Devil, where is your victory? The Serpent strike of the Devil is Sin and Power (Venom) of the Devil is the LAW (NOMOS/Moses).

A New command I give you; Love one another as I have Loved you. Love one another as you Love yourselves, who are now the very Body of He Who purchased you with His very Blood and dwells within you.

You can edit that post until you are blue in the face. The Law of sin and death is mentioned in Romans 8. Romans 8 and 7 show what the Law of sin is. Go there and read without any preconcieved notion and idea. Post what you see there. If you come back still claiming that lie you are proclaiming from reading that text we will talk some more.

 

[HIM]

Paul wrote both books. It's exegetical and hermeneutical honesty to acknowledge this. In my Opinion

WOW now you are in HEBREWS? ARE YOIU OK?

Romans 7 and 8. READ those text! BECAUSE those text show what the LAW of SIn and Death is. NO WHERE ELSE!

 

[Grip Docility]

You can edit that post until you are blue in the face. The Law of sin and death is mentioned in Romans 8. Romans 8 and 7 show what the Law of sin is. Go there and read without any preconcieved notion and idea. Post what you see there. If you come back still claiming that lie you are proclaiming from reading that text we will talk some more.

I don't appreciate your accusation in this above statement. I bless you, in response to this.

3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Definition: that which is assigned, usage, law
Usage: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

 

[HIM]

You can't be serious.

I don't appreciate the insinuation,

I don't appreciate your accusation in this above statement.

SAVE ALL THAT. Post something relevant from Romans 7 and 8.

If you can't that should tell you two things. You are wrong and or you don't know what you are talking about and therefore shouldn't.

Sorry that is three.

Prove what you say from the text from which it is from Grip. PLEASE try.

 

[Grip Docility]

WOW now you are in HEBREWS? ARE YOIU OK?

Romans 7 and 8. READ those text! BECAUSE those text show what the LAW of SIn and Death is. NO WHERE ELSE!

Scripture is scriptures commentary. All of these Epistles can be brought together to exegetically work in unison because of their unique authorship. Hebrews is the very thesis statement of this OP's Origin. As for the other books being discussed;

Galatians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Romans - Jesus Christ through Paul
1 Corinthians - Jesus Christ through Paul
2 Corinthians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Colossians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Philemon - Jesus Christ through Paul
Philippians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Ephesians - Jesus Christ through Paul
1 Thessalonians - Jesus Christ through Paul
2 Thessalonians - Jesus Christ through Paul
1 Timothy - Jesus Christ through Paul
2 Timothy - Jesus Christ through Paul
Titus - Jesus Christ through Paul

 

[HIM]

Scripture is scriptures commentary. All of these Epistles can be brought together to exegetically work in unison because of their unique authorship. Hebrews is the very thesis statement of this OP's Origin. As for the other books being discussed;

Galatians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Romans - Jesus Christ through Paul
1 Corinthians - Jesus Christ through Paul
2 Corinthians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Colossians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Philemon - Jesus Christ through Paul
Philippians - Jesus Christ through Paul
Ephesians - Jesus Christ through Paul
1 Thessalonians - Jesus Christ through Paul
2 Thessalonians - Jesus Christ through Paul
1 Timothy - Jesus Christ through Paul
2 Timothy - Jesus Christ through Paul
Titus - Jesus Christ through Paul

Ok I can only assume you are an adolescent, or something worse.
Take care

And Nothing you shown says the Law of sin and death is the Law of Moses. It is only mentioned in 7 and 8 of Romans.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The Nomos of sin and death is not the Law of Moses. Who told you that blasphemous lie?

If the Law is in our heart and mind. His Word in our hearts and mouths then we are what we beheld.

You sin, you die -- that is the law of sin and death and that is the law of Moses. It is also the curse of the law of Moses. And the only relief from the curse of the law and the law of sin and death is trust in Jesus for God's forgiveness.

 

[Grip Docility]

You can't be serious.

I don't lightly share my opinions of what I believe the 1 John 2:27 of the matter is in discussion.

SAVE ALL THAT. Post something relevant from Romans 7 and 8.

Please understand that disagreement with a scriptural opinion doesn't mean that a persons statement is irrelevant. I appreciate when you share your opinions and likewise share mine.

If you can't that should tell you two things. You are wrong and or you don't know what you are talking about and therefore shouldn't.

This is a statement that essentially suggests that because one disagrees with their opinion, the other person shouldn't be able to share their opinion. I kindly disagree. We are here to share our opinions and be heard. Though we disagree, doesn't mean that either should be condemned as Dead Wrong.

We are commanded to build one another up in Love. We are commanded to lift one another up in Love, through Jesus Christ. I want to make it clear that though I ardently disagree with your interpretation of the verses you strung together in this valuable OP, I am thankful that you are sharing it and I value this discussion.

Sorry that is three

Three of what?

 

[HIM]

You sin, you die -- that is the law of sin and death and that is the law of Moses. It is also the curse of the law of Moses. And the only relief from the curse of the law and the law of sin and death is trust in Jesus for God's forgiveness.

7 and 8 of Romans Griffin. Show from there. Our opinions are worthless

 

[HIM]

I don't lightly share my opinions of what I believe the 1 John 2:27 of the matter is in discussion.

Please understand that disagreement with a scriptural opinion doesn't mean that a persons statement is irrelevant. I appreciate when you share your opinions and likewise share mine.

This is a statement that essentially suggests that because one disagrees with their opinion, the other person shouldn't be able to share their opinion. I kindly disagree. We are here to share our opinions and be heard. Though we disagree, doesn't mean that either should be condemned as Dead Wrong.

We are commanded to build one another up in Love. We are commanded to lift one another up in Love, through Jesus Christ. I want to make it clear that though I ardently disagree with your interpretation of the verses you strung together in this valuable OP, I am thankful that you are sharing it and I value this discussion.

Three of what?

Romans 7 and 8 of Romans. None of what you say here has anything to do with anything. Stop wasting time and go to the text and read. Start in 7 and read through.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So are you saying a righteousness man can never fall?

No, I am saying that the new man will never sin, will never be corrupted by sin, and will always be one with the Father and the Son. I could give you Scriptures which say these things, if that will help you distinguish between the spirit/Spirit and the flesh that all people in whom Chist lives possess.

 

[Grip Docility]

Ok I can only assume you are an adolescent, or something worse.

Ad hominem

Take care

Take care, my sibling in Jesus Christ.

And Nothing you shown says the Law of sin and death is the Law of Moses. It is only mentioned in 7 and 8 of Romans.

Hebrews 8-10 actually does, IMO. The very Tablets of the Covenant mentioned in Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:1,4,14 flow all the way through to the very Covenant that there no longer remains a sacrifice for.

As I have posited from the first two responses that I provided in this discussion, we have a choice;

Moses <----------------------------------------------- (Eye that is the Lamp of the Soul) ---------------------------------------------> Jesus

I maintain this position of opinion, per the scriptures I have given from the very beginning of thread history. I do respect your conviction and opinions, however, and appreciate the time that you take to share them.

 

[Grip Docility]

7 and 8 of Romans Griffin. Show from there. Our opinions are worthless

Who's opinions?

 

[HIM]

Ad hominem

Take care, my sibling in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8-10 actually does, IMO. The very Tablets of the Covenant mentioned in Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:1,4,14 flow all the way through to the very Covenant that there no longer remains a sacrifice for.

As I have posited from the first two responses that I provided in this discussion, we have a choice;

Moses <----------------------------------------------- (Eye that is the Lamp of the Soul) ---------------------------------------------> Jesus

I maintain this position of opinion, per the scriptures I have given from the very beginning of thread history. I do respect your conviction and opinions, however, and appreciate the time that you take to share them.

None of which you post says anything in respect to the Law of Sin and death. Your opinion does not matter and is baseless.

Romans 7 and 8. What is so hard about this?

Answer that if nothing else.