Since reports are fixed... you should probably be told the new Moderation Protocol

[MikeK]

Can we at least get an agreement that Mods in OBOB - except in the rarest of cases where there is extreme need, like if someone posts cadaver porn or something - do not report a post an delete it or edit it all by themselves? That seems like a pretty reasonable request I think.

 

[Miss Shelby]

thank you for not denying it's existance like others have done in the past. you got IM you got cf staff private forums, but yet another one is still needed. I have participated in them myself and regret the secrecy that took place. I was not open and fair, and while you may be, I can't say the same for some of your partners.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

I just wanted to thank the mods for all their hard work here. I know that obob must be kinda a black sheep among the other forums on this site. And, I know the mods on obob allow a lot more to take place than would be allowed on other parts of cf. Thanks for all your hard work. Frankily, I know I don't have what it takes to be a good mod so I respect those that take on the challenge.

 

[Davidnic]

thank you for not denying it's existance like others have done in the past. you got IM you got cf staff private forums, but yet another one is still needed. I have participated in them myself and regret the secrecy that took place. I was not open and fair, and while you may be, I can't say the same for some of your partners.

Honestly, most staff from all over the forums have had places to talk in the past. Denying that is stupid. In the places I talk to people I would not refer to them in the current sense as secret staff forums. I would refer to them as barely active past effects that are used for fellowship. For a very personal reason I am glad it was there. If it had not been there I am not sure how a situation in my life would have turned out. So although I see your point, I can guarantee on my word and honor that there is currently no place that meets what you think of as an off site place in the sense you experienced it. Anywhere I post off site is more for private prayers as I mentioned and to get people on the same page (not gossip or nefarious plans but consistency). And now with the social groups I can see that taking over that function and being on site. I can say that anything discussed on IM or any private way that effects a report is in a report 100% of the time.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

shoot, I really need to stop using aaron's computer I always forget to log out. Anyway this is colleen

 

[Davidnic]

Can we at least get an agreement that Mods in OBOB - except in the rarest of cases where there is extreme need, like if someone posts cadaver porn or something - report a post an delete it or edit it all by themselves? That seems like a pretty reasonable request I think.

Well the current rule is we delete it come to consensus and then restore it if it was not a violation. How's that sound? The new system would also make it that if we are being biased the admins would see that clearly and it would be fixed. Also the Supervisors (me here) would be vigilant against bias and try to ensure consistency.

Also I just raised the issue of the current profanity rule. I'll keep you up to date.

 

[MikeK]

Well the current rule is we delete it come to consensus and then restore it if it was not a violation. How's that sound? The new system would also make it that if we are being biased the admins would see that clearly and it would be fixed. Also the Supervisors (me here) would be vigilant against bias and try to ensure consistency.

Also I just raised the issue of the current profanity rule. I'll keep you up to date.

Oops, I meant to add a "do not" in my previous post. Reads better now.

Why edit first and then talk it over to see if the post was really okay? Isn't it bwetter to let the occasional borderline post go than it is to silence a person who should have had a voice? Why not agree to diascuss posts before unilaterally deleting them?

If there's doubt, do nothing.

 

[Davidnic]

Oops, I meant to add a "do not" in my previous post. Reads better now.

Why edit first and then talk it over to see if the post was really okay? Isn't it bwetter to let the occasional borderline post go than it is to silence a person who should have had a voice? Why not agree to diascuss posts before unilaterally deleting them?

If there's doubt, do nothing.

I believe it is an err on the side of caution thing.

 

[Miss Shelby]

david I ask forgiveness for my overgeneralized critisism. I am bitter at the obob staff in general for being blamed for the generalized porno atmosphere and the potty mouthedness of others because I was perceived the ring leader. by certain mods. yes I am holding a grudge and I shouldn't, but I can't help but be suspicious because of that.

 

[MikeK]

I believe it is an err on the side of caution thing.

Like putting Japanese citizens in camps durring WW2?

You never can be too careful I guess. Think of the awful things that could happen if a borderline post stood for a few hours.

And yes, I'm party just being a jerk for the heck of it, but also partly because we've hjad in the past clear examples of preferential treatment and secret vendetas by mods, mods that are in some cases still active here in OBOB. I don't think it;s unreasonable to be concearned now that mods are encouraged to edit unilaterally - when one or two were so quick to do it that way before when they weren't even supposed to. I shudder to think what they might be like now.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

So you would like a rule on things like language and such (anything that "offends personal sensibilities") that leaves no room for interpretation.

It doesn't seem that hard, does it...I mean if people aren't overly sensitive. Don't use words that trip the swear filter and don't add symbols so as to avoid tripping the swear filter. If you want to call someone some political leader a donkey wang--have at it. That isn't flaming (as that requires saying something to a specific person on the boad) and it isn't tripping the swear filter. It reflects on the poster what words they chose--I dunno why stuff like that needs to be moderated. If the swear filter is insufficirnt then it ought to be changed. I can't type hell or damn--I mean--c'mon....you have to have special permission to be here if you're 13 or under--and I am assuming that the ignore option is working...so if there is a poster who routinely ofends you- then take the responsibility for yourself and your offended sensibilities and ignore them.

There are sites out there that just moderate for rule violations--and that have pared down the rules so as to avoid over moderating. If the rules here are unlclear so as to be open to interpretation- well that's really kind of indicative of superfluent or just plain bad rules.

You can't play a game or participate in an activity if there is perpetual misunderstanding by the participants about what the rules even actually are.... Maybe it was offsides, maybe it wasn't--but at least everyone involved has a firm and clearing understanding of what offsides is.

 

[colleen]

david I ask forgiveness for my overgeneralized critisism. I am bitter at the obob staff in general for being blamed for the generalized porno atmosphere and the potty mouthedness of others because I was perceived the ring leader. by certain mods. yes I am holding a grudge and I shouldn't, but I can't help but be suspicious because of that.

I'm not a mod so my opinion doesn't matter much, but I would say anyone who thought porno stuff had a ring leader is pretty silly. I didn't know a single person who was involved with all of that stuff that wasn't terribly independant and unlikely to follow anyone. Sorry, you were help responsible for others actions, and I'm sorry if I ever said anything that made it seem like you were a ring leader.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I'm not a mod so my opinion doesn't matter much, but I would say anyone who thought porno stuff had a ring leader is pretty silly. I didn't know a single person who was involved with all of that stuff that wasn't terribly independant and unlikely to follow anyone. Sorry, you were help responsible for others actions, and I'm sorry if I ever said anything that made it seem like you were a ring leader.

no colleen it wasn't you-- it was in my report threads. I routinely read that 'such and such' only behaved that way because Miss Shelby did it first.

 

[colleen]

Also be careful what you are asking for. The more specific rule everyone is asking for may not leave much room for the grey obob depends on for survival. Plus, wasn't everyone asking for a more generic rule with less definition when cf came out with the super strict guidelines on profanity?

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I have never- ever- asked for rules open to interpretation by moderators. Ever. Either something is or is not against the rules on a site. I also think some random time and number of Notices yileding to a ban is stupid. Make it five. or ten or six thousand-but don't make it arbitrary.

Speeding is against the law. If you speed you know you are breaking the law. It might happen that you are choosing to speed for a reason you find of sufficient import that breaking the law is a choice you are okay with in light of the consequences --like your wife is in labor. However- that doesn't mean you are not breaking the law or that you are free from the consequences...it might mean, that a police officer would not hold you accountbale for the consequences (ie-not give you a ticket) --but there's no doubt about whether or not you are breaking the law. In our state if you get a certain number of points off your license (different speeding fines carry different points) and if you go over a certain amount your privledge to drive is taken away. It's clear, you know what it is going in and can make decisions about your behaviour by weighing the consequences that could come from your actions.

It's not like there isn't precendence for what I'm saying....how in the heck can offending your grandmother be an enforceable standard of rule??? Seriously....

 

[colleen]

I wasn't trying to point fingers at you, Shannon. Sorry, if it came out that way. I was just saying in general when they came up with the big list of no nos everyone jumped down their back and told them things should be more open. That we are all adults and should be able to determine when something is appropriate or not. But, now it seems like people want a list of no nos.

 

[Davidnic]

david I ask forgiveness for my overgeneralized critisism. I am bitter at the obob staff in general for being blamed for the generalized porno atmosphere and the potty mouthedness of others because I was perceived the ring leader. by certain mods. yes I am holding a grudge and I shouldn't, but I can't help but be suspicious because of that.

Forgiven before you ask. Honestly I don't blame you or see you as a ring leader. Do I sometimes disagree with how you phrase things? Yes. And if they break a rule you'll hear from mods.

As far as centering everything on you. Do I think that anyone else's actions are your problem...nope. Each person is responsible for their own actions. I do not believe in "making an example" of anyone for others to see. That's childish and I don't subscribe to it. Each report will be done on it's own issues.

I hope that as we move forward you will lose you suspicions and that our actions prove our promises. If we work together I think this can all have a good and fair resolution. And that the new system will work to ensure consistency.

 

[krstlros]

I was just saying in general when they came up with the big list of no nos everyone jumped down their back and told them things should be more open. That we are all adults and should be able to determine when something is appropriate or not. But, now it seems like people want a list of no nos.

As someone mentioned earlier, be careful what you wish for.

The more "lists" that are put up, the more restrictions there will be, and in all likelihood, the person asking for the specific "don't" is the very one that will be in violation.

Moderators are not the "School Yard" police. They are to enforce rules and regulations, and to hopefully put in some sevlance of order. I've seen reporting wars and believe me, they are not pretty, and it usually ends up with both parties being temporarily subforum banned for a period of time.

As Colleen stated, we are all adults. Perhaps we all should start acting like it, or at least give an appearance of being adults.

 

[Davidnic]

I have never- ever- asked for rules open to interpretation by moderators. Ever. Either something is or is not against the rules on a site. I also think some random time and number of Notices yileding to a ban is stupid. Make it five. or ten or six thousand-but don't make it arbitrary.

Speeding is against the law. If you speed you know you are breaking the law. It might happen that you are choosing to speed for a reason you find of sufficient import that breaking the law is a choice you are okay with in light of the consequences --like your wife is in labor. However- that doesn't mean you are not breaking the law or that you are free from the consequences...it might mean, that a police officer would not hold you accountbale for the consequences (ie-not give you a ticket) --but there's no doubt about whether or not you are breaking the law. In our state if you get a certain number of points off your license (different speeding fines carry different points) and if you go over a certain amount your privledge to drive is taken away. It's clear, you know what it is going in and can make decisions about your behaviour by weighing the consequences that could come from your actions.

It's not like there isn't precendence for what I'm saying....how in the heck can offending your grandmother be an enforceable standard of rule??? Seriously....

I see the validity in what you ask and that is why I am asking for a more specific rule. It is also possible to sum up how it has been enforced and ask the admins if that is in the intent of the rule and see if from that we can give more specific details on how the rule is to be enforced. It is designed for leeway and there will be issues with mod enforcement no matter how it is worded. But I will endeavor to make it as clear as possible moving forward and I have asked for a discussion of it with staff so I can get answers for those who have questions.

 

[OnTheWay]

You want some new mods then ask the people you want to be mods to apply when the apps reopen.

As far as the second point, having someplace to talk is more convenient than IM all the time. We don't make any decisions anywhere that are not also in the reports fully. Almost every staff member talks to each other about CF stuff on IM, google chat, some on the telephone and other means. There is nothing nefarious about that...especially when CF used to have such a habit of crashing. You know the nefarious things I talk to other staff about off site (be it somewhere else, IM, Google chat): Prayer requests that may be a bit to sensitive for open forums (like a health situation or death you can not share in public yet because you don't want a loved one to see it on a message board first), staying in contact during upgrades, asking for feedback from the other mods on how I am doing, general worries and notices about computer trouble or leave of absences that I like to have collected for my reference rather than spread across time and space. It's the same thing people use IM and MSN for, real time staff discussions, brainstorming and such.

When I was an admin in theology my co-admin and I would talk twice a day on MSN messenger about division of duties, what was up and problem issues. I did not then copy transcripts onto CF because anything relevant was always repeated in a decision...usually about 15 times before it was all said and done. The same thing with any other off site discussion I have be it a message program, other site, phone (never done that), PM, email or any other type of discussion.

As far as getting unbiased people if you think other mods would allow the language and such that goes on around OBOB...be my guest to try it anywhere else on the forum. Seriously, see how long it lasts. You think we are biased...give it a whirl.

You know you really know how to kick people in the teeth for trying.

Here's the thing though, there are obviously differing standards for differing posters. It's not just OBOB for sure, but it certainly happens. I mean someone gets banned for use of the term donkey wang whereas another poster, in full white trash glory, makes threats of phyiscal violence and skates on it. We also have to look at history as well, in the past when threads from the sooper seekrit forums were leeked they've been anything but innocent mod duty discussions. Then, of course, you have posters like Seebs, who had directed mod campaigns run against them. So I suppose what it comes down to is a simple prinicipal, secrets breed suspicisions.