Sin!

[cvanwey]

What happened?

I actually read the Bible (more than brief tid bits), investigated the claims, found too many assertions not backed with evidence. I also prayed for decades, and never felt any discernible contact, while many others around me would state they did, and would state, 'you will definitely know when He does.' Found it odd that He would skip me for decades of devout attempted interaction.

Read the Bible more, found more things which weren't backed with evidence. Asked a lot of questions, answers were not logically consistent.

etc.....

 

[royal priest]

I actually read the Bible (more than brief tid bits), investigated the claims, found too many assertions not backed with evidence. I also prayed for decades, and never felt any discernible contact, while many others around me would state they did, and would state, 'you will definitely know when He does.' Found it odd that He would skip me for decades of devout attempted interaction.

Read the Bible more, found more things which weren't backed with evidence. Asked a lot of questions, answers were not logically consistent.

etc.....

Were you looking for evidence other than the fulfilled prophecies?
Were you looking for contact from God other than His ordinary daily contact?

 

[Hieronymus]

I actually read the Bible (more than brief tid bits), investigated the claims, found too many assertions not backed with evidence. I also prayed for decades, and never felt any discernible contact, while many others around me would state they did, and would state, 'you will definitely know when He does.' Found it odd that He would skip me for decades of devout attempted interaction.

Read the Bible more, found more things which weren't backed with evidence. Asked a lot of questions, answers were not logically consistent.

etc.....

Yes, i can imagine this happening.
I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.
Compared to you i'm still a young believer with only 10 years of being convinced of the truth of what's in the Bible (i'm 47).
But opposite to you, one of the things that caused me to take it seriously is how hated the Bible is, how much anything Christian is slandered or misrepresented (also by Christians in name) and how numerous the attempts are to debunk it, and how weak and / or dishonest the debunkings are.
But i came from the other side, the worldy new agey side, pop culture, Buddhism.
Typical European i guess.
The alternative to Biblical religions (including atheism / naturalism) turned out to have much weaker cases for their credibility, is what i discovered.
The Bible explains the human condition (sinners against better judgement) very well.
The necessity for a Saviour is not far fetched at all.

 

[Tree of Life]

So are you saying every believer in Christ was taught by the Holy Spirit?

So are you then saying the Holy Spirit chose to skip me?

Yes.

 

[cvanwey]

Yes.

You know this because?...

Or is it more probable that there exists no God, and all claims to contact are internally inflicted, or from an alternative source?

 

[Tree of Life]

You know this because?...

This is what Jesus taught in places like John 6 and John 10. Only his sheep hear his voice.

Or is it more probable that there exists no God, and all claims to contact are internally inflicted, or from an alternative source?

You don't believe in God therefore it is probable that God does not exist?

 

[cvanwey]

Yes, i can imagine this happening.
I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.

If you can imagine this happening, what is your explanation as to why God would deliberately skip over someone of earnest requests, for decades? Especially, when I did so in accordance with asserted Holy scripture:

(Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23)

If I die, with no contact, doesn't this negate the above verses? The only thing one could argue, is that I'm in denial or oblivious to His prior contact. But many also argue that 'you will know' when He contacts you. So, there you go...

But opposite to you, one of the things that caused me to take it seriously is how hated the Bible is,

Love or hate for a book has no relevancy to whether or not it is true. On the flip side, I see quite the opposite here in the states. Many here quote the Bible daily. Heck, it's hard to watch a sporting event without seeing someone holding up a sign with 'John 3:16'.

how much anything Christian is slandered or misrepresented (also by Christians in name) and how numerous the attempts are to debunk it, and how weak and / or dishonest the debunkings are.

Specifically where you live, or in general?.?.?

The alternative to Biblical religions (including atheism / naturalism) turned out to have much weaker cases for their credibility, is what i discovered.

Atheism is not a religion. It carries no dogma. It makes no alternative assertions. Religion requires worship, on some level mostly, and ascribes to some sort of deity of 'supremeness', or a creator(s). Instead, it states, I don't believe your claim. Not a religion

And how does naturalism fit in? Are you rejecting peer review entirely? Please elaborate.

The Bible explains the human condition (sinners against better judgement) very well.

So do other books and movies. The Bible calls everything against the assertions of the claimed God 'sin', and everything which happens to agree with the assertions, not sin. I would agree the Bible seems to over simplify the human condition. Maybe that's why so many feel they can relate.?.?

 

[cvanwey]

You don't believe in God therefore it is probable that God does not exist?

Not necessarily...

What I'm saying is that after decades of searching for God, I find lack in evidence to believe He actually does exist. In such a case, is it more likely my earnest searching is all blundered, and I'm confused, ignorant, and/or blind to the obvious evidence presented before me, (even though I use the very same method to confirm existence of countless other things I perceive as real)? Or, is it more likely I'm warranted in my lack in findings for this God, and others (whom claim contact) are either delusional or maybe God is instead deliberately skipping over me, in spite of decades of earnest requests, as following scripture?

 

[Tree of Life]

Not necessarily...

What I'm saying is that after decades of searching for God, I find lack in evidence to believe He actually does exist. In such a case, is it more likely my earnest searching is all blundered, and I'm confused, ignorant, and/or blind to the obvious evidence presented before me, (even though I use the very same method to confirm existence of countless other things I perceive as real)? Or, is it more likely I'm warranted in my lack in findings for this God, and others (whom claim contact) are either delusional or maybe God is instead deliberately skipping over me, in spite of decades of earnest requests, as following scripture?

If you have a desire to repent of your sins and to know God in Christ then this is evidence that the Holy Spirit is already at work in your life. Fallen man can never have the presence of mind to realize that he is wrong and that his life has no justification and that he needs God's grace. Only the Holy Spirit can turn a person's heart to these things.

So if you're truly earnest I would encourage you, as Jesus taught in Matthew 7, to keep asking, keep seeking, and keep knocking.

 

[cvanwey]

If you have a desire to repent of your sins and to know God in Christ then this is evidence that the Holy Spirit is already at work in your life.

No. All it has demonstrated, is that I was a product of indoctrination for decades. I didn't decide to turn away from God. I had no choice only after rigorous study of the Bible and it's claims, and also realizing that I was talking to myself in prayer for decades.

Fallen man can never have the presence of mind to realize that he is wrong and that his life has no justification and that he needs God's grace.

Christianity is not the only religion which tells humans that we are born with a flaw, and require saving. But even if it was, how does this make the Bible true?

Only the Holy Spirit can turn a person's heart to these things.

What is to be said for the millions/billions whom profess contact from their differing Gods? Are they all delusional? Or maybe Yahweh is contacting them, and they are just mistaking their believed god for Yahweh?

So if you're truly earnest I would encourage you, as Jesus taught in Matthew 7, to keep asking, keep seeking, and keep knocking.

Did so for decades. Sorry, no luck. But you never even addressed my question(s)...

What if I decided to continue, and still die with no perceived contact. Die a doubter.... Hell is the reward. How is this 'just'?

You may reply, 'what prompted you to pray for decades, to a God you never believed existed?' My response, indroctrination!

 

[Tree of Life]

No. All it has demonstrated, is that I was a product of indoctrination for decades. I didn't decide to turn away from God. I had no choice only after rigorous study of the Bible and it's claims, and also realizing that I was talking to myself in prayer for decades.



Christianity is not the only religion which tells humans that we are born with a flaw, and require saving. But even if it was, how does this make the Bible true?



What is to be said for the millions/billions whom profess contact from their differing Gods? Are they all delusional? Or maybe Yahweh is contacting them, and they are just mistaking their believed god for Yahweh?



Did so for decades. Sorry, no luck. But you never even addressed my question(s)...

What if I decided to continue, and still die with no perceived contact. Die a doubter.... Hell is the reward. How is this 'just'?

You may reply, 'what prompted you to pray for decades, to a God you never believed existed?' My response, indroctrination!

Well maybe you're right. Maybe in light of all of this God's existence is improbable, as you say. Why, then, are you wasting your time continuing to think and talk about Him?

 

[cvanwey]

Well maybe you're right. Maybe in light of all of this God's existence is improbable, as you say. Why, then, are you wasting your time continuing to think and talk about Him?

As I'm a product of my deep indoctrination, (as stated in my last response), much like someone trapped in a cult of repetition for a long time, it is hard to finally 'deprogram'. Hence, I still yearn for it to be true quite frankly. I invested so much time in it, it would be a crying shame to learn it was ALL in vain. However, I find the arguments (for) Christianity inconsistent and severely lacking....

Are you going to change that for me? By giving me evidence I cannot contest....?

Case and point, I asked @Paisios

If you communicate with God, would it be too much trouble to ask Him to give me a jingle? This is ALL I need, for starters

 

[Hieronymus]

If you can imagine this happening, what is your explanation as to why God would deliberately skip over someone of earnest requests, for decades? Especially, when I did so in accordance with asserted Holy scripture:

(Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23)

I have no answer that will satisfy either of us.
But it depends on what you request too.
You'll have to ask me in 20 years, i guess..
Up to now, i don't have the impression that the door has been opened either.
I imagine when it had, i would be sure it had.
But what i've heard from testimonies, the knocking often has to entail seeking his Face, which can take days, even weeks, and sometimes by fasting for that period of time.
The verses make it sound very simple.
And from other testimonies i understand it can be that simple too.
What seems important is that one approaches God in total humility.
But again, i don't know and i haven't reached that point yet either.
I think i can settle for John 3:16 and put my trust in Him, and looking forward to my "treasure in Heaven".

If I die, with no contact, doesn't this negate the above verses? The only thing one could argue, is that I'm in denial or oblivious to His prior contact. But many also argue that 'you will know' when He contacts you. So, there you go...

Yeah, i believe "you will know" too.
It hasn't happened to me either, but there has been a change of heart and repentance.
But it's a slow process in my case.
It doesn't worry me too much, on average.
But sometimes it does.
I'm at the point of realizing that i should make a serious effort to seek God's face, by prayer and fasting.
But i'm also a little afraid for the possible disappointment when it "won't work".
As a sufferer of chronic depression (medication gives me enough will to live to hang on) it may be the last thing i'll try in this lousy life.
So maybe i'm just too half hearted afterall..
Eventually we'll see, on the other side of physical death.
I don't believe in the traditional teachings of eternal conscious torment in hell, i believe the Bible clearly teaches it's eternal life with God or death, so i'm not "scared into believing in God" like many are.
It is my love for truth that keeps me on this path.
But i find it hard to believe that my finding the Truth in Christ and acknowledging God is my only hope and my righteousness would not be enough to be saved.
I'm not really fond of this physical life.
I want to stay alive until my mother passes away though, because i don't want her to lose her son.
As for my prayers, i don't pray for worldly things for myself.
I pray the Lord's prayer sometimes, i pray for God to help me with my unbelief and to make me love Him, which i don't always do, and to pray for justice on this planet / to throttle the injustice on this planet, because too many people suffer too much due to injustices.
But like i said, i can imagine what happened in your case.
It's possible the same will eventually happen in my case.

Love or hate for a book has no relevancy to whether or not it is true.

In this case i think it does.
For one, people don't like truth.
People prefer soothing lies over truth.
You should realize too, that the adversary (the devil and his spiritual cronies) has a lot of followers too, and in high places even.
Read Psalms 82 for reference.
Luciferianism is much more popular than people realize.
Its ideas have been embedded in our modern worldview pretty deeply.
I'm sure though, that everyone can see that the Bible is hated by non Christians.
The media and entertainment industry has been an anti Christian mouthpiece for decades now.

On the flip side, I see quite the opposite here in the states. Many here quote the Bible daily. Heck, it's hard to watch a sporting event without seeing someone holding up a sign with 'John 3:16'.

Well, that is absolutely not the case in Europe.
I'm a very lonely believer in my community.
It is no wonder to me that the present war on the Luciferian globalist elites is coming from the last Christian western nation on our planet, the USA.
It is written that God appoints the kings of the nations, and this time it seems He gave the USA the highly unlikely POTUS, who, after years, stands behind Christians in America, in stark contrast to that snake charmer (nobody denies he was a charming guy) Barry O. (or was it Barry S.?).
We'll have to see how it all plays out, of course, but at least something is happening with which the powers that (shouldn't) be are clearly not happy.
In fact, the developments have given even me a bit of hope for the future and the next generations to come.
...but i digress...
(everything is connected)

Specifically where you live, or in general?.?.?

I think in general, but either way, from my point of view.
But i tend to look under the carpet and behind the curtains too.
The big media networks and Hellywood have a global audience.
But since the rise of the internet, so does the "truth community" or however you want to call it.
They invented the internet to track us, but now it's turning against them.
Just look at the censorship and shadow banning by the big tech platforms.
They know they have a problem.

Atheism is not a religion. It carries no dogma. It makes no alternative assertions.

It's naturalism, which is a belief:

the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.

So their existence depends on the earth and the eco system and on survival skills, and knowing the earth will not last forever as a habitat, science and increasing knowledge is the only saviour, so that some alternative may be found.

Religion requires worship, on some level mostly, and ascribes to some sort of deity of 'supremeness', or a creator(s). Instead, it states, I don't believe your claim. Not a religion

It depends on how you define religion and / or belief system.
It seems atheist often worship Holy Science.
They have prophets and scripture too. (Darwin, Dawkins and the late Hawking, for example)

And how does naturalism fit in? Are you rejecting peer review entirely? Please elaborate.

Naturalism has a LOT of finance and platform behind it.
It is usually pushed under the guise of science or along with science, giving it the appearance of infallibility or at least a self correcting quest for truth that supposedly is always moving toward the truth.

So do other books and movies.

Nah.

The Bible calls everything against the assertions of the claimed God 'sin', and everything which happens to agree with the assertions, not sin.

We know darn well in our hearts what is right and what is wrong.
And isn't it the human tragedy that we know better but still do wrong?
But for the less obvious things we need a moral compass too.
This comes with discernment, or discernment comes with the compass.
I think it's a package deal.
It is indeed not in harmony with the world's consensus though.
That also (partially) explains the human allergy to the Bible.

Maybe that's why so many feel they can relate.?.?

Well, most people just adopt the worldly consensus.
In the first place because it appeals to the flesh, and also because we are being fed worldly thinking and tempted to embrace it.
The present day indoctrination apparatus is HUGE and EVERYWHERE.

 

[Tree of Life]

As I'm a product of my deep indoctrination, (as stated in my last response), much like someone trapped in a cult of repetition for a long time, it is hard to finally 'deprogram'. Hence, I still yearn for it to be true quite frankly. I invested so much time in it, it would be a crying shame to learn it was ALL in vain. However, I find the arguments (for) Christianity inconsistent and severely lacking....

Are you going to change that for me? By giving me evidence I cannot contest....?

Case and point, I asked @Paisios

If you communicate with God, would it be too much trouble to ask Him to give me a jingle? This is ALL I need, for starters

Would you rather completely deprogram or would you rather be surprised to discover that the gospel is true?

 

[cvanwey]

Would you rather completely deprogram or would you rather be surprised to discover that the gospel is true?

I would rather someone provide 'evidence' in which I cannot refute so easily. Can you provide as such?

I'm starting to loose hope. I've been on this forum arena for months, and have yet to receive anything which starts to turn the wheels back towards optimism, regarding thinking Christianity has a leg to stand upon. I know people will state you should not rely upon fallible humans for such 'truth'. However, I have read the Bible itself, and the 'truth' claims professed within these pages don't seem to pan out or jive with discovery or reality too much...

Sigh....

 

[Tree of Life]

I would rather someone provide 'evidence' in which I cannot refute so easily. Can you provide as such?

I'm starting to loose hope. I've been on this forum arena for months, and have yet to receive anything which starts to turn the wheels back towards optimism, regarding thinking Christianity has a leg to stand upon. I know people will state you should not rely upon fallible humans for such 'truth'. However, I have read the Bible itself, and the 'truth' claims professed within these pages don't seem to pan out or jive with discovery or reality too much...

Sigh....

I have not seen you meaningfully interact with various evidences that some very thoughtful posters have suggested. I don't think I have anything new to offer you.

 

[cvanwey]

But what i've heard from testimonies, the knocking often has to entail seeking his Face, which can take days, even weeks, and sometimes by fasting for that period of time.
The verses make it sound very simple.
And from other testimonies i understand it can be that simple too.
What seems important is that one approaches God in total humility.

Well, you've heard wrong. You remember a man by the name of Saul, whom later changed his name to Paul He sought nothing. And he is, in part, the reason Christianity exists today

It hasn't happened to me either, but there has been a change of heart and repentance.

Persistence and repetition has a funny way of doing that.

But i'm also a little afraid for the possible disappointment when it "won't work".

Funny how the mere testing of His existence would require as such, but others seem to receive messages without request, or with little effort Why not just reveal to all???? Satan is aware of His existence. It changed nothing. Satan was still defiant. Makes no sense.... Just reveal to all. Very simple...

I don't believe in the traditional teachings of eternal conscious torment in hell, i believe the Bible clearly teaches it's eternal life with God or death, so i'm not "scared into believing in God" like many are.

Then you either slept though some of the Bible readings, or skipped parts. There exists many verses in the Bible, which speak of Hell and burning. Look it up

I'm not really fond of this physical life.

It's more probable that it's the only one you'll get, so make it count!

For one, people don't like truth. People prefer soothing lies over truth.

A case could be made that this holds true for the believers in the Bible. Meaning, most would rather not look too deep into the claims of the Bible, and just accept it as true, to sooth them

It is written that God appoints the kings of the nations, and this time it seems He gave the USA the highly unlikely POTUS, who, after years, stands behind Christians in America, in stark contrast to that snake charmer (nobody denies he was a charming guy) Barry O. (or was it Barry S.?).

We'll have to see how it all plays out, of course, but at least something is happening with which the powers that (shouldn't) be are clearly not happy.
In fact, the developments have given even me a bit of hope for the future and the next generations to come.
...but i digress...

(everything is connected)

It is quite easy to read passages from an ancient book of claimed prophecies, and draw connections accordingly. People have been doing it for the Bible since it was canonized. And yet, here we still are today

It seems atheist often worship Holy Science.

I'm a doubter, and I don't. So what say you, about me?.?.?.? I follow the evidence, regardless of where it came from. The Bible makes some claims which are likely true. It also makes some claims which are likely false, based upon the findings.

Nah.We know darn well in our hearts what is right and what is wrong.

According to whom or what? I 'know' it's wrong to kill dogs. Many in China genuinely disagree. Who's right?

But for the less obvious things we need a moral compass too.

So God telling us, in the Bible, that slavery is 'a okay' and woman are inferior to men in leadership is absolute?

This comes with discernment, or discernment comes with the compass.
I think it's a package deal.
It is indeed not in harmony with the world's consensus though.
That also (partially) explains the human allergy to the Bible.Well, most people just adopt the worldly consensus.
In the first place because it appeals to the flesh, and also because we are being fed worldly thinking and tempted to embrace it.
The present day indoctrination apparatus is HUGE and EVERYWHERE.

I thought it was more-so because the majority are intellectually lazy, and many instead simply appeal to authority Or like to be spoon fed 'truth'?

 

[Hieronymus]

Well, you've heard wrong. You remember a man by the name of Saul, whom later changed his name to Paul He sought nothing. And he is, in part, the reason Christianity exists today

Most people don't experience what prophets and apostles experienced.
God chose Paul for a reason.
I think it turned out to be a good choice.
An unlikely one (in our perspective) too.
A Pharisee, turning out to become the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Persistence and repetition has a funny way of doing that.

Maybe, but that's not what i was alluding to.
Yes, we're supposed to pursue a change in ourselves, in our ways, and growing smaller in the flesh while growing larger in the Lord.
It's "the good fight", isn't it?
And not to earn points, but because it's the right direction.
Things gradually and sometimes suddenly get a different perspective.

Funny how the mere testing of His existence would require as such, but others seem to receive messages without request, or with little effort Why not just reveal to all???? Satan is aware of His existence. It changed nothing. Satan was still defiant. Makes no sense.... Just reveal to all. Very simple...

Yeah, it seems God is "playing hard to get" most of the times.
And sometimes He reveals Himself to individuals.
But remember, blessed is the person who has not seen yet believes.
I'm not sure either, why God is so elusive.
But it seems He wants us to seek him and persist.
In all it seems to be a selection procedure of some sorts.
It appears as if only a relative few people will be saved, but Revelation 7:9 indicates differently.
And in all, the lake of Fire (the 2nd death) was not intended for humans.
God did not create man to die, but to live.

Then you either slept though some of the Bible readings, or skipped parts. There exists many verses in the Bible, which speak of Hell and burning. Look it up

I'm quite aware of the apologetics of the traditional view and the Conditional Immortality view.
I have struggled with the subject for about 2 years, when i became convinced the traditional view was the correct one.
It was hell and i have never hated God more than in that period of time.
I am unable to love, respect or submit to God when He puts most all of my friends and family in a place of never ending torture, to suffer in agony for ever and ever without purpose or outcome.
And it makes the idea of a just and loving Father a total joke.
But i was afraid to study the subject, because i was afraid it was actually true.
If it was true, i would end up in eternal conscious torment myself, because it would make it impossible for me to worship God if it was true.
And there would be no escape either.
But it didn't make sense that we should love our fellow humans and then see them going to the eternal torture facility.
Much more good things of the Christian doctrine wouldn't make sense either.
Jesus dying for the sins of the world, because the wages of sin is death, and then God creating many of his creatures to be tortured forever as a wages of sin?
You can't torture what's dead.
John 3:16 doesn't make sense either when the traditional view is true.
So eventually i just HAD to know the deal.
So i set out to investigate the matter.
A lot of the traditional view is built on ambiguous translation and interpretation.
In all, i'd say that more than 80% of the Bible texts relevant to this question point to death as the wages of sin and the ultimate fate of the unsaved.

It's a crying shame that many people reject God because of the traditional view on this matter.
People hate God for it.
And so did i.
But i couldn't reject Him, because i believed in Him being the One True God..

It's more probable that it's the only one you'll get, so make it count!

But what would be the point?
If this is all, i will have learned nothing of it, because all i learned will die with me.
I haven't got any children to pass on my 'wisdom'.
And they would die too, and eventually the solar system will wear down and all life will cease.
Quite pointless i.m.o.

A case could be made that this holds true for the believers in the Bible. Meaning, most would rather not look too deep into the claims of the Bible, and just accept it as true, to sooth them

Yeah, of course.
But for soothing you have to be selective too.
But in my case, i come from the other side.
I always dismissed God, Jesus and the Bible.
I believed man exists to evolve / grow and become Gods themselves..
New Age / Luciferian / Gnostic stuff, basically.
Ideas launched by socialite elites around the mid 19th century to a wider audience.
Theosophy.

It is quite easy to read passages from an ancient book of claimed prophecies, and draw connections accordingly. People have been doing it for the Bible since it was canonized. And yet, here we still are today

I was referring to the things in the world i mentioned, which are all connected.
Itś a big picture thing, a package deal.
But so is the Bible.
Not that everything is clear, though..

I'm a doubter, and I don't. So what say you, about me?.?.?.?

I'm enjoying this conversation with you.
You seem to be disappointed in your expectations, especially after 30 years of trying.

I follow the evidence, regardless of where it came from.

I always say i follow the evidence where ever it leads to, regardless of my preferences.
Only that's not entirely true anymore.
I started my quest for truth like that, but gradually i landed on this worldview, and it has passed the tests, so my point of view is from this stable position now, in stead of the initial birds eye view i needed to find this place.

The Bible makes some claims which are likely true. It also makes some claims which are likely false, based upon the findings.

You would have to be more specific.
But my rule of thumb is more or less that from Genesis 6 onward it is a history book.
I'm not sure about the parts before that.
The story told in Genesis 1 to 5 i believe to be true none the less, but not necessarily as a report of events, but maybe to some extent it is.
If the Flood was global or local i don't know either.
It's not that important to me anymore if it is.

According to whom or what? I 'know' it's wrong to kill dogs. Many in China genuinely disagree. Who's right?

Conscience.
We know good and bad, we have a conscience, we all fail to live by it at some point.

So God telling us, in the Bible, that slavery is 'a okay'

You're projecting our modern day view of slavery, and the horrors of it in the past on what it meant then.

and woman are inferior to men in leadership is absolute?

Is it wrong because it's not politically correct in our days now?
Aren't there differences between male skills and talents and female skills and talents?

I thought it was more-so because the majority are intellectually lazy, and many instead simply appeal to authority Or like to be spoon fed 'truth'?

This is true, but people with power can make use of that to push their agendas.
Rulers are always trying to make people believe and think what they should believe and think.

 

[cvanwey]

Most people don't experience what prophets and apostles experienced.

I have also spoken to others whom have stated they were not a believer until they received contact. My best friend's wife made the very same case. I was only using the most widely attested example, Paul. But others claim contact which changes their minds, while not praying for contact prior

God chose Paul for a reason.

I think it turned out to be a good choice.
An unlikely one (in our perspective) too.
A Pharisee, turning out to become the Apostle to the Gentiles.

If this method was so effective, you would think He would have contacted a few others, or ALL. But hey, what do I know...?

Yeah, it seems God is "playing hard to get" most of the times.

Not with many. Many claim daily encounters, and at will.

But remember, blessed is the person who has not seen yet believes.

You are quoting a book, written by a human. Let's play Occam's razor again...

1) Is it more likely there is a God, and this God instructed a human to write down this passage?
2) Or, A human wrote this as a catch-all, to attract or convince the non-believers. And also so that no proof be needed?

Using intellectual honesty, I have to select option 2).

It appears as if only a relative few people will be saved, but Revelation 7:9 indicates differently.
And in all, the lake of Fire (the 2nd death) was not intended for humans.
God did not create man to die, but to live.
I'm quite aware of the apologetics of the traditional view and the Conditional Immortality view.
I have struggled with the subject for about 2 years, when i became convinced the traditional view was the correct one.
It was hell and i have never hated God more than in that period of time.
I am unable to love, respect or submit to God when He puts most all of my friends and family in a place of never ending torture, to suffer in agony for ever and ever without purpose or outcome.
And it makes the idea of a just and loving Father a total joke.
But i was afraid to study the subject, because i was afraid it was actually true.
If it was true, i would end up in eternal conscious torment myself, because it would make it impossible for me to worship God if it was true.
And there would be no escape either.
But it didn't make sense that we should love our fellow humans and then see them going to the eternal torture facility.
Much more good things of the Christian doctrine wouldn't make sense either.
Jesus dying for the sins of the world, because the wages of sin is death, and then God creating many of his creatures to be tortured forever as a wages of sin?
You can't torture what's dead.
John 3:16 doesn't make sense either when the traditional view is true.
So eventually i just HAD to know the deal.
So i set out to investigate the matter.
A lot of the traditional view is built on ambiguous translation and interpretation.
In all, i'd say that more than 80% of the Bible texts relevant to this question point to death as the wages of sin and the ultimate fate of the unsaved.

To me, after much study, the answer seems simple. Men wrote these texts. Writing stuff like, 'blessed are the ones whom have not seen and still believe.' and 'all non-believers will be cast away.' are good ways to sell your story, and make them indisputable The rest is just pondering the apparent 'illogic' and lack in apparent 'justification' within yourself to reconcile and/or rationalize the conclusions in your own head

But what would be the point?

If this is all, i will have learned nothing of it, because all i learned will die with me.
I haven't got any children to pass on my 'wisdom'.
And they would die too, and eventually the solar system will wear down and all life will cease.

Quite pointless i.m.o.

Who says anyone owes you anything? Just because humans have the ability to invent intentional agency, does not then make it true somehow. The Bible claims that God is interactive. Well then, interact. Otherwise, there is a lot of us whom will just discard the empty claims.

But for soothing you have to be selective too.

Precisely. I've attended many churches here in the states. They only preach messages, which are positive. Heck, even many of my own family members were unaware of the apparent 'horrid atrocities' which are mentioned in the Bible, until I showed them that is . Because quite frankly, most go to church, and await their cherry picked book report. Not all, but you know what I mean. Most have other priorities. And yet, it's ironic that these same people may also attest that Christianity is priority number one.

Attend any adolescent Bible gathering. Cherry picked as well. Makes you wonder. Heck, even traditional school history teaches all angles, not just hand picked selected ones. 'Get 'em while their young' I guess.... Churches seem to 'taylor' they own selective messages often times.

I'm not bashing all churches. But it's ironic that I have seen this in 100% of the many I use to attend.

I was referring to the things in the world i mentioned, which are all connected.

Itś a big picture thing, a package deal.

These same statements could be said for the evolutionary tree, completely absent from god like beliefs. 'We all started from a common ancestor and all'. Thus, we are all connected.

I'm enjoying this conversation with you.

Me too. But I fear we have strayed SO MUCH off topic, no one else is reading; and will abandon this thread entirely, for which it was originally intended

You seem to be disappointed in your expectations, especially after 30 years of trying.

Wouldn't you be?

But my rule of thumb is more or less that from Genesis 6 onward it is a history book.

Yeah, but we have no evidence of 2 million Jews in Egypt. Hence, rendering the claims of an Exodus account, likely unsupported.

The story told in Genesis 1 to 5 i believe to be true none the less, but not necessarily as a report of events, but maybe to some extent it is.

You are aware that this belief appears in direct conflict with evolutionary theory and abiogenesis right?

If the Flood was global or local i don't know either.

Current evidence suggests neither.

We know good and bad, we have a conscience, we all fail to live by it at some point.

The moral argument is huge. I'm not going to go here. Well, maybe a little sighted below.... Let's just say morality is relative and leave it at that

You're projecting our modern day view of slavery, and the horrors of it in the past on what it meant then.Is it wrong because it's not politically correct in our days now?

So beating your slave, as long as they do not die within 48 hours, is 'a okay'? What does YOUR moral compass say about that?

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.'

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Let's evaluate this 'morally'... God is stating it's okay to beat as much as you like, as long as you don't kill them. Also, if you are not a Jew, you are kept for life.

Now ask yourself, who wrote this passage? A Jew maybe?

Furthermore, setting aside the moral dilemma, seems as though God would not have favored one race of flesh. Just seems absurd. God rules the universe(s), but favors Jews in one period of time. The 'Covenant' excuse is lame quite frankly. People have absolutely no control over what race they were born within.

Aren't there differences between male skills and talents and female skills and talents?

This is true, but people with power can make use of that to push their agendas.
Rulers are always trying to make people believe and think what they should believe and think.

Studies indicate that women's brains are not inferior in intellect to men. And yet, you have primitives whom write...

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The religious rulers of Jesus' day believed he was influenced by Satan. Jesus said that his mighty works testify concerning him, the OT Scriptures speak of him, and that his resurrection testifies that he is beloved of the Father.

Serious question: would Satan be capable of resurecting somebody? Let's say a false messiah, just to make the scam a little more believable? If yes, how would you distinguish a "divine resurection" from a "satanic resurection"?

It's something that I asked myself oftenly...
If this Satan is truelly so epicly powerfull, surely he would be capable of runnings scams that would fool even the smartest and the most well-meaning of humans, yes?

If that is the case, how could one ever know that the entire Jesus story isn't exactly such a well-thought out scam?