cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Assuming the word 'sin' means 'an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law', or something similar, one may continue or proceed....

Thus, impersonating God would appear to definitely fall within such definitions...

I have to ask... (Two questions inter-related)

1) Is any and all sin orchestrated, perpetuated, or instigated by satan? Or, can some sins be performed without the aid or coaxing/other of satan?

2) If all sin requires satan's hand, this would mean any and all humans, whom have and will profess to be a prophet, Messiah, or other, were initiated by satan's handy word. And if so....

WHY would the likes of Jesus be the exception to this rule? Meaning, how do we know Jesus IS the Messiah? Prophecy, resurrection, other?
 

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
1) Is any and all sin orchestrated, perpetuated, or instigated by satan? Or, can some sins be performed without the aid or coaxing/other of satan?


All sin is satanic in that Satan's influence underlies all sin. All sin is based on his lies. This doesn't mean that Satan is whispering in the ear of every sinner, but all sin carries the influence of the Father of Lies.

2) If all sin requires satan's hand, this would mean any and all humans, whom have and will profess to be a prophet, Messiah, or other, were initiated by satan's handy word. And if so....

Assuming that these are false prophets and false messiahs, yes. Satan would have some influence in this, however remote.

WHY would the likes of Jesus be the exception to this rule? Meaning, how do we know Jesus IS the Messiah? Prophecy, resurrection, other?

The religious rulers of Jesus' day believed he was influenced by Satan. Jesus said that his mighty works testify concerning him, the OT Scriptures speak of him, and that his resurrection testifies that he is beloved of the Father.
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private

All sin is satanic in that Satan's influence underlies all sin. All sin is based on his lies. This doesn't mean that Satan is whispering in the ear of every sinner, but all sin carries the influence of the Father of Lies.



Assuming that these are false prophets and false messiahs, yes. Satan would have some influence in this, however remote.



The religious rulers of Jesus' day believed he was influenced by Satan. Jesus said that his mighty works testify concerning him, the OT Scriptures speak of him, and that his resurrection testifies that he is beloved of the Father.

Thank you for your response.

So claims of prophecy and resurrection then :) So why are the Orthodox Jews mistaken, or confused about how the Torah does not speak of Jesus and that the resurrection is not founded?
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for your response.

So claims of prophecy and resurrection then :) So why are the Orthodox Jews mistaken, or confused about how the Torah does not speak of Jesus and that the resurrection is not founded?

You're asking why people do not believe in Jesus?
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
You're asking why people do not believe in Jesus?

Not exactly. Your assertion is that Jesus is proven to not be a false Messiah, due to prophecy and claims for resurrection. I'm asking why the Jews, whom read from the very same books, are mistaken about any and all passages hypothetically associated to Jesus specifically?
 
Upvote 0

Lost4words

Jesus I Trust In You
Supporter
May 19, 2018
10,943
11,698
Neath
✟1,002,191.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Not exactly. Your assertion is that Jesus is proven to not be a false Messiah, due to prophecy and claims for resurrection. I'm asking why the Jews, whom read from the very same books, are mistaken about any and all passages hypothetically associated to Jesus specifically?

Interpretation.
 
Upvote 0

royal priest

debtor to grace
Nov 1, 2015
2,666
2,655
Northeast, USA
✟181,424.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Not exactly. Your assertion is that Jesus is proven to not be a false Messiah, due to prophecy and claims for resurrection. I'm asking why the Jews, whom read from the very same books, are mistaken about any and all passages hypothetically associated to Jesus specifically?
John 5:39; 46-47
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Interpretation.

How might interpretation relate to a resurrection claim? The claim is pretty straight forward. He 'rose from the grave'. It either happened, or it didn't. Why do the Jews reject the stated evidence?
 
Upvote 0

Lost4words

Jesus I Trust In You
Supporter
May 19, 2018
10,943
11,698
Neath
✟1,002,191.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
How might interpretation relate to a resurrection claim? The claim is pretty straight forward. He 'rose from the grave'. It either happened, or it didn't. Why do the Jews reject the stated evidence?

They see it differently. They interpret it to suit their beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Not exactly. Your assertion is that Jesus is proven to not be a false Messiah, due to prophecy and claims for resurrection. I'm asking why the Jews, whom read from the very same books, are mistaken about any and all passages hypothetically associated to Jesus specifically?

I couldn't speak for all Jews. You'd have to ask them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
They see it differently. They interpret it to suit their beliefs.

I get that.

But that's not really what I'm asking in this instance. You have a book which states a man rose from the dead. You have a large group of people whom state that did not happen. Beliefs and interpretation really do not apply here.

Why?

Someone could tell me my son is a thief. I don't believe them. Not for a second! They bring me video footage of him in the act. I verify that the footage is not manipulated. I may still be in complete denial, but I have no choice but to accept the truth in the matter. So prior belief does not matter in such a case. Furthermore, there exists very little wiggle room for interpretation.

So going back to the claims of a resurrection, do the same variables apply? Meaning, the Jews are confronted with sufficient evidence, and they simply remain in denial?


If so, what evidence am I missing?
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I have. Please read post #11.

If you're asking why some read the OT Scriptures and do not believe that they speak of Christ, it is because they are not taught by the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Its what the believe. Its in their blood. They dont see Jesus like we do.

Look, Jesus lived among them and even then they did not believe!

I think you've missed my point. Belief would not matter. Please address my prior post regarding 'my son being a thief.' Belief is not really even a choice, when you think about it enough...

For instance.... Make yourself believe you can fly. You can't ;) But your mind can be changed, beyond your control, if enough evidence was to prevail....

Moving forward. The Jews will state Jesus did not resurrect from the dead.

So my question remains unanswered....

Have the Jews been presented with sufficient evidence, and they are in denial? (Or) Are the Jews substantiated in the fact that there actually lacks sufficient evidence for a resurrection?

Because again, they could not believe. Just like I would NOT believe Trump was going to be elected president prior to November 2016, until it happened in my face in Nov. 2016. I would be a fool to not believe it now. And yes, I could still be in denial, though nonsensical... :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
If you're asking why some read the OT Scriptures and do not believe that they speak of Christ, it is because they are not taught by the Holy Spirit.

So are you saying every believer in Christ was taught by the Holy Spirit?

So are you then saying the Holy Spirit chose to skip me?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums