Sin

[justbyfaith]

Where did I say that? But the fact is some people are able to resist the desires/passions of the flesh from time to time. This is a fact. You can ignore this fact or adjust your thinking in light of the truth.

Those who have the fruits of the spirit are teachable. Thought you said you have been set free from selfish desires. Resist pride. It’s selfish.

So the unsaved can resist the pull of the flesh from time to time. That would indicate that resisting the pull of the flesh does not define someone as saved.

What does define us is that we know that we are forgiven.

So you think I am unteachable and have pride. That may well be true; but when the Lord shows that to me it will be so that He can deal with it in my life. I don't think that understanding that He has wrought a change in my life means that I have pride, however. Or that I am unteachable.

Paul did say in the Bible that he didn't allow a woman to teach or usurp authority over a man. So if I do not respect the opinions of women as much as I might heed what might be said to me by a man, it is for that reason.

 

[RDKirk]

Is everyone in this discussion even in agreement with what sin is?

Let's refrain from common Christianese--merely saying "missing the mark" is not a meaningful definition.

 

[justbyfaith]

As far as I know, those are people who claim they don't sin (at least not "willful sin"), so they have nothing of which to repent.

As for me, I'm coming from the perspective that my sin is ever before me (Psalms 51:3); and that therefore my only salvation rests in forgiveness through the blood of Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Is everyone in this discussion even in agreement with what sin is?

Let's refrain from common Christianese--merely saying "missing the mark" is not a meaningful definition.

Oh, but it is. That is sin--being or doing less than what is perfect. God, of course, IS perfect, and that is what it would take if, theoretically speaking, we were to deserve salvation rather than be given it as a gift in spite of our unworthiness.

 

[RDKirk]

Oh, but it is. That is sin--being or doing less than what is perfect. God, of course, IS perfect, and that is what it would take if, theoretically speaking, we were to deserve salvation rather than be given it as a gift in spite of our unworthiness.

You're still speaking in Christianese jargon.

If "sin" means being less than perfect, what does "perfect" mean?

 

[justbyfaith]

Were you lately saved? If not your claim is false.

I was lately restored (Psalms 23:3, Job 14:7-11).

 

[Albion]

You're still speaking in Christianese jargon.

I wish you would try to get away from that kind of talk. What I have outlined is very conventional. But of course it is not a dictionary definition, if that is what you were after. It is an explanation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Perfect means the holiness of the Lord. He is the standard by which we measure perfection. Matthew 5:48.

 

[justbyfaith]

I've actually heard it said that a man's wife is the best person to ask when trying to gauge how well he is doing in his walk with the Lord.

As a matter of fact, there were times in my marriage when my wife didn't hesitate to call me selfish when that shoe was the one that fit.

She is actually quite brutal and honest when it comes to those types of things.

To @Dorothy Mae.

 

[dreadnought]

And I am pointing out the if you sin you bring more unhappiness to others and frankly, that ought to count more for the Christian.

I don't agree. If you punch me in the nose, I'll hurt for a little while and then get over it. As for you, you will suffer for a good, long time.

 

[dreadnought]

As far as I know, those are people who claim they don't sin (at least not "willful sin"), so they have nothing of which to repent.

But I've run into people who seem to think it's all about grace - it doesn't matter if we sin or not.

 

[RDKirk]

But I've run into people who seem to think it's all about grace - it doesn't matter if we sin or not.

I haven't met any of those people who actually say it doesn't matter if we sin or not.

I meet people who say that's what those people seem to say, but I've never met anyone who actually answered affirmatively when explicitly asked, "Does it make any difference if we sin or not?"

 

[RDKirk]

So, then, what should have been defined by the OP so we'd all start on the same page:

What is sin, anyway?

Can we agree that Jesus presents the example of a life without sin, and that a life short of the perfection of Jesus is what it means to "miss the mark?" So how did Jesus live His life?

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

And we are told:

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Sin is failing to do what is in the Mind of God for us to do, each and every decision each and every day. The Mind of God contains every day of perfection for each of us: What we should do each moment from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to sleep. Any action we make during the day that does not conform to what is contained in the Mind of God for that day "misses the mark."

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

A lot of people think there is such a thing as a "neutral" act, but not so if Jesus is the example of sinless perfection. To be sinless and perfect, every decision, every act, must be only what we see the Father doing, and that can only happen when our minds are perfectly conformed to the Mind of God so that we can determine God's pleasing and perfect will for every act, every day, all day long.

Sinless perfection is to have done what Jesus would have done, and what Jesus would have done is what is in the Mind of the Father--what would therefore be in the Mind of the Son and what would be in our mind if our minds were conformed to His mind.

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Most of us never even ask, "God, what do you want me to do today?" God certainly knows--He had prepared the to-list for each of our days before creation, just as Jesus had a to-do list for every day.

This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

How many of us go to sleep asking God for a vision of what our next day should be?

...your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

How many of us ask, "Show me your pattern of my tomorrow, show me what you have done in Heaven, and I will do it on earth?"

Who in this discussion claims to have lived this day just as Jesus would have lived it?

Anything and everything short of that "misses the mark."

 

[justbyfaith]

We are forgiven when we sin; the penalty is paid: and in that sense it doesn't matter if we sin or not if we are in Christ.

But if anyone has a heart that is willfully disposed towards sin, I would say that he or she is not in Christ.

Therefore what matters is the heart's disposition, not individual acts of sin.

If my heart is disposed towards righteousness and against sin, then individual sins are not going to condemn me because I am already forgiven even before I commit them and even if I am unaware of them; because my faith is in what Christ did for me concerning my disposition towards sin, and therefore individual sins are not going to condemn me, because the issue of sin is dealt with (through God's forgiveness towards my disposition to sin and therefore every future individual act of sin).

Of course, if I commit an individual act of sin, that could very well bring me under its power (John 8:31-36; see also 1 Corinthians 6:12). And if I am a slave to any kind of sin, I am not a son but a servant; and the servant doesn't abide in the house for ever; but a son abides for ever. If I am a slave to some sin then my disposition is towards that sin and I am not in Christ.

Therefore I need to be careful never to let sin become fully grown (finished) so that it produces death in me (James 1:15-16). If sin succeeds at producing death, that is the evidence that I was not alive and believing in Jesus (John 11:26).

Sin produces death the moment it begins to bring me under its power. The moment I become addicted to some sin, I am spiritually dead; I am no longer free.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sinless perfection is to have done what Jesus would have done,

And any of us who truly did that would very likely have died by the age of 33.

 

[RDKirk]

And any of us who truly did that would very likely have died by the age of 33.

Which means none of us has hit the mark with every move we make.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So we start the discussion of sin with the admission that we all do sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

Which means none of us has hit the mark with every move we make.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So we start the discussion of sin with the admission that we all do sin.

That is correct. The thing that finally proved it, for me, was Psalms 51:3 and Luke 18:9-14; which I somehow read together in the same reading one day in my methodical approach to reading the Bible.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't agree. If you punch me in the nose, I'll hurt for a little while and then get over it. As for you, you will suffer for a good, long time.

If I steal your job or you wife or you daughter, you will suffer a lot longer in this life than I will. You pick an example that is not really a sin or a crime depending upon how it happened. Getting a hit in the nost can be an accident. Stealing the above persons is not. You pick innocent unpleasantries that you would suffer from. Pick a real sin next time and you will see that you are wrong.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We are forgiven when we sin; the penalty is paid: and in that sense it doesn't matter if we sin or not if we are in Christ.

But if anyone has a heart that is willfully disposed towards sin, I would say that he or she is not in Christ.
Therefore what matters is the heart's disposition, not individual acts of sin.

If my heart is disposed towards righteousness and against sin, then individual sins are not going to condemn me because I am already forgiven even before I commit them and even if I am unaware of them; because my faith is in what Christ did for me concerning my disposition towards sin, and therefore individual sins are not going to condemn me, because the issue of sin is dealt with (through God's forgiveness towards my disposition to sin and therefore every future individual act of sin).

Of course, if I commit an individual act of sin, that could very well bring me under its power (John 8:31-36; see also 1 Corinthians 6:12). And if I am a slave to any kind of sin, I am not a son but a servant; and the servant doesn't abide in the house for ever; but a son abides for ever. If I am a slave to some sin then my disposition is towards that sin and I am not in Christ.

Therefore I need to be careful never to let sin become fully grown (finished) so that it produces death in me (James 1:15-16). If sin succeeds at producing death, that is the evidence that I was not alive and believing in Jesus (John 11:26).

Sin produces death the moment it begins to bring me under its power. The moment I become addicted to some sin, I am spiritually dead; I am no longer free.

This assumption that being "in Christ" is some kind of special state where what we do does not matter is a curious theology. The love of Christ Himself is not apparent but the love of the self is very apparent. No thought for loving God which prevents a man from sinning and no thought for loving man which equally prevents a man from choosing sin crosses the thinking. "What sin can I do and not affect my salvation" seems to be the goal and the vehicle is telling oneself on is "in christ" as some promised state. One is in christ when one is walking with christ. No relationship means not being in or with Christ. And sin means the relationship experiences a separation. Before we were saved and afterwards which is why repentance and restoration is needed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I was lately restored (Psalms 23:3, Job 14:7-11).

I am glad. But lately restored is not enough time to see if you are now never going to be selfish again. I really am glad though. But there has not passed enough time. You need to face the test of how others behave or having a bad day and how you still treat others. I would that it were true, by the way. I just read this claim too often and then read posts that are not at all what the person claims their character how is.