Sin

[dreadnought]

Indeed. I said it because you were glorifying the devil by what you were saying. Maybe even speaking into existence an attack from him on my person (if there be any truth to that type of thinking, concerning words creating reality).

No, I'm just pointing out to you that Satan will try to lead you astray. Is it helpful to be unaware of that?

 

[justbyfaith]

Hopefully the Lord will continue to keep His hedge of protection over me in spite of your words.

 

[Oldmantook]

Paul was addressing a group of people who were visibly the church at Corinth. In Matthew 7:21-23 the people to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you" look like Christians on the outside. Paul knew that he was addressing a group of people of whom some were workers of iniquity and therefore Jesus would say to them, "I never knew you" apart from them repenting before they stood before Him. These were Christians in name only, maybe they even "did wonderful works in his name." but their faith was not genuine in that it did not change their relationship to sin (Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41-42)

If they were in name only i.e. not genuine believers;please explain how did they cast out demons, performed miracles in Jesus' name? Unbelievers are never given the authority to use Jesus' name to cast out demons, etc. Only genuine believers are given that spiritual authority/privilege. Jesus declared that they were commanded to depart because although they were believers who performed the miraculous, they remained disobedient and practiced sin which is inequity and were thus commanded to depart.

Nope. It doesn't say that the Holy Spirit dwelt in Ananias and Saphira. Look again. The Holy Spirit whom they lied to was in Peter.

Really?? I suggest you read it again. Better yet, here it is in Acts 5:3:
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?...You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

So genuine believers can practice iniquity? And also, Jesus will say "I never knew you" to genuine believers because they practice iniquity?

Read it again. Isn't that what the verse states?

How does Romans 8:13 contradict my view? I find that that scripture substantiates it.

You claim that a believer will not want to practice sin. Does that mean that a believer cannot practice sin? Or, even though he doesn't want to practice sin, he/she will still fall to sin on occasion?
Rom 8:13 warns the brethren that IF they live according to the flesh, THEY WILL DIE. This means spiritual death, not physical death as everyone will physically die - no matter how they conduct their lives. So a believer who sins and lives according to the flesh will reap spirtual death. The word "if" makes this verse a conditional statement warning that if your or I live according to the flesh, we reap spiritual death. Believers thus have a choice to live according to the flesh, or according to the Spirit. Not all choose to live according to the Spirit and will reap the consequences thereof.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm just pointing out that if you sin, you will bring unhappiness to yourself.

And I am pointing out the if you sin you bring more unhappiness to others and frankly, that ought to count more for the Christian.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Lordship salvation; and making no distinction between salvation and discipleship: has the effect of translating into salvation by works.

Truly, if one is born again, he or she will be radically changed in their heart so that they will begin to serve the Lord and bear the fruit of the Spirit.

But it is important not to put the cart before the horse. Forgiveness is free from the beginning of our salvation to the end of it. Because we are forgiven much, we will love Him much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5; Ephesians 3:19 w/ 1 John 4:8,16) and this love will be in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18) and will be the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within us (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

However we are not saved because we love the Lord and other people; rather we love God and people because we are saved.

The entering in (as well as the continuation of our faith) is at the place of believing that Jesus died for your sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

If one thinks about this for a minute, one will easily see that if we are not radically changed in the heart so that we are not beginning to serve the Lord and bear the fruit of the spirit, we are not "born again" or "saved" at all. This is, actually works salvation.

Now to get around this obvious problem of measuring salvation by fruits of the spirit or works, an added slot of time is inserted. That is, FIRST one believes and that, at some unforseen time, one begins to bear fruit. This time is extended without end by continuing to refer to the believing moments. That is the focus to the requirement of service and fruit is buried under words. This is how those who do not really want to bear fruit or serve the Lord but do not want to go to hell do it.

The truth is the change is not all voluntary and it is not all passive. The above are simply waiting for God to do the change without any effort lest they be requiring their selfish soul to make choices God would want them to make against their own desires. The truth is we have to also "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling" which is doing our part. No man is saved from sin by works, but no sanctification occurs, not loving God and man without us taking up our cross and dying to self. These are all things we must do because of our love for God that needs to take precidence in moments in time over the love for self.

The above theology presented makes it sound like it is honoring the Lord but it is really burying the talent into the ground waiting for God to make something happen. The Lord is not pleased with those who do not struggle against their own selfish desires.

 

[justbyfaith]

If they were in name only i.e. not genuine believers;please explain how did they cast out demons, performed miracles in Jesus' name? Unbelievers are never given the authority to use Jesus' name to cast out demons, etc. Only genuine believers are given that spiritual authority/privilege. Jesus declared that they were commanded to depart because although they were believers who performed the miraculous, they remained disobedient and practiced sin which is inequity and were thus commanded to depart.

So you're saying that a genuine believer with a living faith in Jesus can have Jesus say to them on that day, "I never knew you."

I would ask you, how is it that you think we are saved?

Really?? I suggest you read it again. Better yet, here it is in Acts 5:3:
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?...You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

You are dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit in your doctrine. How could Ananias and Saphira have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit when that scripture says that Satan had filled their heart? They lied to the Holy Spirit as He dwelt in Peter, not as He dwelt in them.

Read it again. Isn't that what the verse states?

No; these were people who were outwardly righteous, who were doing wonderful things in His name; who were casting out devils; who were prophesying in His name. This only goes to show that there is power in Jesus' name: the fact that they were workers of iniquity would indicate that they were false prophets (Matthew 7:15-20). They used the name of Jesus for their own ends; they were not in it because they loved Him but because they wanted to be big shots in the church; their motivation was self-glory. Everything was right outwardly but on the inside things didn't cut it.

You claim that a believer will not want to practice sin. Does that mean that a believer cannot practice sin? Or, even though he doesn't want to practice sin, he/she will still fall to sin on occasion?

I don't know about any of that. All I know is my own experience, that I have not wanted to sin since coming to the knowledge of His complete and total forgiveness. Whether I have sinned or not since then, only the Lord knows (1 Corinthians 4:4). I would say that the scripture teaches that if we sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins remains; and there is a good chance that is including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Rom 8:13 warns the brethren that IF they live according to the flesh, THEY WILL DIE. This means spiritual death, not physical death as everyone will physically die - no matter how they conduct their lives. So a believer who sins and lives according to the flesh will reap spiritual death. The word "if" makes this verse a conditional statement warning that if your or I live according to the flesh, we reap spiritual death. Believers thus have a choice to live according to the flesh, or according to the Spirit. Not all choose to live according to the Spirit and will reap the consequences thereof.

Concerning Romans 8:13, it should be compared to John 11:26 to get a better picture. If I live and believe in Jesus, I will never die. But if I walk according to the flesh, I will die. Therefore if I live and believe in Jesus, I will not walk according to the flesh.

The comparison would tell us that living and believing in Jesus means that we will not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. Because if I live and believe in Jesus, I will never die, but if I walk according to the flesh, I will die (and therefore if I live and believe in Jesus I will not walk according to the flesh); and if I mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit, I will live. To me this equates living and believing in Jesus with mortifying the deeds of the flesh and not living after the flesh; but I find that when I try to declare these truths to people they become willfully blind, so that it takes a long and drawn out explanation for them to be able to see the connection that I have made logically between these scriptures. But anyone with a clear and logically thinking mind can make the same conclusion that I have, that the comparison of these scriptures shows that living and believing in Jesus means not walking according to the flesh; since what can never happen in one verse (to the one who lives and believes in Jesus) does happen in another verse (to the one who walks according to the flesh) .

I would also want to be careful about crossing over into a doctrine of salvation by works; wherein a person is saved or not saved because of his or her behaviour.

Salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Walking according to the flesh is the behaviour characteristic of someone who is not saved by grace through faith (see Ephesians 2:2-3, which is the context of Ephesians 2:8-9). But one who is saved by grace through faith is not going to go from being saved to losing his salvation over walking in the flesh; for he who does the will of God abideth for ever (1 John 2:17; 1 John 3:6). Therefore a man who is truly saved by grace through faith is one who is sealed by the Holy Spirit and is motivated by His influence in his life to walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. It is a situation where God even causes him to walk in His statutes and in His judgments because He has given him a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

 

[justbyfaith]

If one thinks about this for a minute, one will easily see that if we are not radically changed in the heart so that we are not beginning to serve the Lord and bear the fruit of the spirit, we are not "born again" or "saved" at all. This is, actually works salvation.

Now to get around this obvious problem of measuring salvation by fruits of the spirit or works, an added slot of time is inserted. That is, FIRST one believes and that, at some unforseen time, one begins to bear fruit. This time is extended without end by continuing to refer to the believing moments. That is the focus to the requirement of service and fruit is buried under words. This is how those who do not really want to bear fruit or serve the Lord but do not want to go to hell do it.

The truth is the change is not all voluntary and it is not all passive. The above are simply waiting for God to do the change without any effort lest they be requiring their selfish soul to make choices God would want them to make against their own desires. The truth is we have to also "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling" which is doing our part. No man is saved from sin by works, but no sanctification occurs, not loving God and man without us taking up our cross and dying to self. These are all things we must do because of our love for God that needs to take precidence in moments in time over the love for self.

The above theology presented makes it sound like it is honoring the Lord but it is really burying the talent into the ground waiting for God to make something happen. The Lord is not pleased with those who do not struggle against their own selfish desires.

The Lord has set me free from my selfish desires, so I don't struggle with them any more. I guess the Lord is not pleased with me for that I now have victory over sin because I don't desire it any longer?

It is not works salvation that is being spoken of, because through faith alone in Jesus, God changes the heart so that I do the works because His love has been placed in my heart. The works are the result of faith and a part of salvation. It is as the equation faith = salvation + works. Salvation and works are on the same side of the equation. A closer understanding is that salvation and works go hand in hand. Salvation means I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and works come out of this salvation. Really, the fruit that I bear and the works that I do are a part of the salvation that God has given me. I do good works as the result of my salvation; not in order to obtain it.

 

[justbyfaith]

The above theology presented makes it sound like it is honoring the Lord but it is really burying the talent into the ground waiting for God to make something happen. The Lord is not pleased with those who do not struggle against their own selfish desires.

By all means struggle against your flesh, as long as you think you need to. The harder you struggle, and the more you fail, the sooner you will come to the end of yourself so that you might understand that your only salvation can be in forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

By all means struggle against your flesh, as long as you think you need to. The harder you struggle, and the more you fail, the sooner you will come to the end of yourself so that you might understand that your only salvation can be in forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Christ.

Nah. Every mother whose flesh desperately wants to stay in bed but whose newborn is crying wins the battle against the flesh. Even atheists win the battle against the flesh of they lose weight, stop
smoking, make themselves go to work. I can give tons of examples where people do this. Only some Christians think they can let the flesh do as it wants until God changes it for them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Lord has set me free from my selfish desires, so I don't struggle with them any more. I guess the Lord is not pleased with me for that I now have victory over sin because I don't desire it any longer?

Does everyone who lives and works with you testify that you are NEVER ever selfish? That’s the test.

It is not works salvation that is being spoken of, because through faith alone in Jesus, God changes the heart so that I do the works because His love has been placed in my heart. The works are the result of faith and a part of salvation. It is as the equation faith = salvation + works. Salvation and works are on the same side of the equation. A closer understanding is that salvation and works go hand in hand. Salvation means I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and works come out of this salvation. Really, the fruit that I bear and the works that I do are a part of the salvation that God has given me. I do good works as the result of my salvation; not in order to obtain it.

Does everyone around you say this of your deeds? Do they all say you are full of the fruit of the Spirit? “Let another praise you.”

But i’m willing to keep an eye on your posts and see how much they live up to your claim if your deeds and words. Got to thinking about one sarcastic post you wrote and that is definitely lacking the fruit of the spirit, not doing good so far.

 

[Oldmantook]

So you're saying that a genuine believer with a living faith in Jesus can have Jesus say to them on that day, "I never knew you."

I would ask you, how is it that you think we are saved?

You never bothered to reply to my comment regarding the passage that you yourself cited. Why is that? If you take the words of Jesus seriously, did Jesus himself not declare that those believers who practiced inequity to depart from him? I'm not saying it - Jesus said it. Therefore, you can either choose to believe Jesus' words or disregard them. You claim that a believer will always want to not sin. Jesus' words directly contradict your claim since he cited those believers who instead PRACTICED INEQUITY.

I suppose you agree that someone needs to believe in Jesus as Savior according to John 3:16. The Greek word for "believe" in Jn 3:16 is a present tense verb more accurately translated as "believing." Therefore, a believer needs to continue believing in order to remain saved. If a believer ceases to believe, he/she is no longer saved.
Do you believe that someone also needs to obey in order to be saved according to Heb 5:9? Like Jn 3:16, the Greek word for "obey" in Heb 5:9 is a present tense verb translated as "obeying." A believer must continuing obeying the Word and the Spirit in order to remain saved. If a believer ceases to obey, he/she is no longer saved.

You are dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit in your doctrine. How could Ananias and Saphira have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit when that scripture says that Satan had filled their heart? They lied to the Holy Spirit as He dwelt in Peter, not as He dwelt in them.

I suggest you study what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit as your definition is no where close to what it means. The indwelling of the Spirit happens instantly when a person becomes saved. A person who becomes a believer can subsequently through disobedience have Satan fill his/her heart. They lied to the Spirit PERIOD. It does not state that they "lied to the Holy Spirit as He indwelt Peter." You have added your own words to the text which is a dangerous thing to do. Moreover, if these were really unbelievers, why would they get judged so harshly by dying on the spot? Your interpretation makes no sense.

I don't know about any of that. All I know is my own experience, that I have not wanted to sin since coming to the knowledge of His complete and total forgiveness. Whether I have sinned or not since then, only the Lord knows (1 Corinthians 4:4). I would say that the scripture teaches that if we sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins remains; and there is a good chance that is including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

I commend you for your experience however the pertinent question is your experience the same for all believers? Some believers may have the same experience as you but others may not. Are you saying that you don't sin at all? If so, that would put you squarely in conflict with 1 Jn 1:8-10.

But anyone with a clear and logically thinking mind can make the same conclusion that I have, that the comparison of these scriptures shows that living and believing in Jesus means not walking according to the flesh; since what can never happen in one verse (to the one who lives and believes in Jesus) does happen in another verse (to the one who walks according to the flesh) .

Rom 8:13 gives believers a choice - to either live according to flesh, OR live according to the Spirit. If no such choice was possible Paul's warning would be meaningless. The fact that he warns the brethren to guard against living according to the flesh demonstrates that it is indeed possible which contradicts your notion. Your belief that a true believer such as yourself cannot possibly fall away from the faith is not taught in Scripture. For example, 1 Tim 4:1 states: "Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,"
It is impossible for an unbeliever to abandon the faith because an unbeliever does not possess saving faith. Only believers can abandon the faith. Just another example showing that genuine believers can sin and turn away from the faith - in this case by following deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

I would also want to be careful about crossing over into a doctrine of salvation by works; wherein a person is saved or not saved because of his or her behaviour.

Why do you think Jesus judges all the churches in Revelation by their works or lack thereof? Why do you think James states that we are JUSTIFIED by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE? (Js 2:24). Works
are the outward demonstration of our inward faith. You cannot have one without the other.

Salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Walking according to the flesh is the behaviour characteristic of someone who is not saved by grace through faith (see Ephesians 2:2-3, which is the context of Ephesians 2:8-9).

Why do you quote Eph 2:8-9 but not quote the very next verse which states that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works...that we should walk in them? As stated earlier, our works done in obedience to the Word and Spirit demonstrate that our faith is genuine.
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James 2:14
Bottom line - our works whether good or bad will be judged by God with its attendant consequences.

 

[justbyfaith]

You never bothered to reply to my comment regarding the passage that you yourself cited. Why is that? If you take the words of Jesus seriously, did Jesus himself not declare that those believers who practiced inequity to depart from him? I'm not saying it - Jesus said it. Therefore, you can either choose to believe Jesus' words or disregard them. You claim that a believer will always want to not sin. Jesus' words directly contradict your claim since he cited those believers who instead PRACTICED INEQUITY.

They were not true believers. If anyone has a living faith in Jesus, they are saved, Ephesians 2:8-9. Are you trying to defend the concept that you yourself are a believer because you yourself desire to sin? John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30 (Hebrews 13:5 also) all show that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure in Him. I qualify it by 1 John 2:17 w/ 1 John 3:6. A true believer in Jesus is not a worker of iniquity, that is the conclusion I make from my long study of the scriptures over a period of over 28 years.

I suppose you agree that someone needs to believe in Jesus as Savior according to John 3:16. The Greek word for "believe" in Jn 3:16 is a present tense verb more accurately translated as "believing." Therefore, a believer needs to continue believing in order to remain saved. If a believer ceases to believe, he/she is no longer saved.

However, impaho, a true believer will never cease to believe.

Do you believe that someone also needs to obey in order to be saved according to Heb 5:9? Like Jn 3:16, the Greek word for "obey" in Heb 5:9 is a present tense verb translated as "obeying." A believer must continuing obeying the Word and the Spirit in order to remain saved. If a believer ceases to obey, he/she is no longer saved.

Hebrews 5:9 is tricky. It is actually, in context, talking about obedience to Melchizedec. However I would say that this scripture, along with Acts of the Apostles 5:32, tells us, not that we must obey God in order to be saved or continue to be saved; but rather that if we are truly saved we will continue to obey God, see Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13.

I suggest you study what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit as your definition is no where close to what it means.

Can Satan dwell in the same place that the Holy Spirit is dwelling? I don't think so, 1 John 4:4 tells me otherwise, along with Mark 3:27.

The indwelling of the Spirit happens instantly when a person becomes saved. A person who becomes a believer can subsequently through disobedience have Satan fill his/her heart.

Not scriptural, see above.

They lied to the Spirit PERIOD. It does not state that they "lied to the Holy Spirit as He indwelt Peter." You have added your own words to the text which is a dangerous thing to do.

Actually, you have added to the text by saying that they lied to the Holy Spirit as he dwelt in them. The text does not say that; and in fact, it shows clearly to me that they were not punished when they were planning out their lie, but when they told their lie to Peter. The text bears evidence to the fact that they lied to the Holy Spirit in Peter, therefore.

Moreover, if these were really unbelievers, why would they get judged so harshly by dying on the spot? Your interpretation makes no sense.

It does make sense. In those days it was the beginning of the New Testament church, and God was jealous for His holiness: therefore He made an example of Ananias and Saphira. The text in no way requires that they had to be truly born again. God judges the wicked as well as the just.

I commend you for your experience however the pertinent question is your experience the same for all believers? Some believers may have the same experience as you but others may not. Are you saying that you don't sin at all? If so, that would put you squarely in conflict with 1 Jn 1:8-10.

I was not looking for commendation; but thank you. I don't know if my experience is the same for all true believers because I am not their judge. If they desire to sin, God is the judge of whether they truly believe or not. I only know that because I really believe, I don't want to sin. And no, I am not saying that I don't sin at all; only the Lord knows whether that is true or not, 1 Corinthians 4:4. I would say however that 1 John 1:8 does not say, "If we say that we don't sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." Rather, it says, "If we say that we have no sin..." This is referring to indwelling sin and can be referred back to Romans 7:18. Indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any authority over our behaviour. See 1 John 3:5-9, which I interpret to mean that when a man is born again, his life is radically changed so that he no longer desires sin.

Rom 8:13 gives believers a choice - to either live according to flesh, OR live according to the Spirit. If no such choice was possible Paul's warning would be meaningless. The fact that he warns the brethren to guard against living according to the flesh demonstrates that it is indeed possible which contradicts your notion. Your belief that a true believer such as yourself cannot possibly fall away from the faith is not taught in Scripture. For example, 1 Tim 4:1 states: "Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,"
It is impossible for an unbeliever to abandon the faith because an unbeliever does not possess saving faith. Only believers can abandon the faith. Just another example showing that genuine believers can sin and turn away from the faith - in this case by following deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

People who are not genuinely saved can be "in the faith"--that is, they can be professing Christians who go to church and do everything that a Christian does. It has been said that walking into a church doesn't make you born again any more than walking into a garage makes you a car.

John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, and Hebrews 13:5 all speak of eternal security...they are promises that can be obtained through faith by anyone. See 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, and Romans 4:20-22.

Why do you think Jesus judges all the churches in Revelation by their works or lack thereof? Why do you think James states that we are JUSTIFIED by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE? (Js 2:24). Works
are the outward demonstration of our inward faith. You cannot have one without the other.

We are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Those who are redeemed by faith alone in Jesus Christ are regenerated and renewed, transformed (Titus 3:4-7, Romans 12:1-2). We have been forgiven much, and therefore we love much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5); and this love is a practical love (1 John 3:18) that is the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within us (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

Why do you quote Eph 2:8-9 but not quote the very next verse which states that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works...that we should walk in them? As stated earlier, our works done in obedience to the Word and Spirit demonstrate that our faith is genuine.

Because the subject wasn't sanctification, it was justification. Yes, good works are usually the result of a living faith. However, we are saved by a living faith alone.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James 2:14 Bottom line - our works whether good or bad will be judged by God with its attendant consequences.

Amen, we will be judged by our works...those who are redeemed (forgiven) will be rewarded for our good deeds (gold, silver, and precious gems) at our Bema Seat Judgments, and those who are not redeemed will be condemned for their evil deeds at the Great White Throne Judgment.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; and this means that all of us have done evil. Therefore, if you take a sudden look at John 5:29, everyone will be raised unto the resurrection of condemnation. Except for one thing...those who have been forgiven by God through Christ's shed blood will not have our evil deeds counted against us...and therefore only our good deeds will be counted. Therefore we will be raised unto the resurrection of life; even if the only good we ever did was to call on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13, Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).

One thing that will not happen on the day of judgment is us seeing anyone go to heaven after the Great White Throne judgment because their good deeds outweighed their bad...the only people who will go to heaven are those who will have none of their sins counted against them because of their faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross...see Romans 4:6-8 among other passages.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nah. Every mother whose flesh desperately wants to stay in bed but whose newborn is crying wins the battle against the flesh. Even atheists win the battle against the flesh of they lose weight, stop
smoking, make themselves go to work. I can give tons of examples where people do this. Only some Christians think they can let the flesh do as it wants until God changes it for them.

So you're saying that someone can have ultimate victory over the flesh apart from the power of the Spirit? Not sound doctrine; but I can see your point of view.

 

[justbyfaith]

Does everyone who lives and works with you testify that you are NEVER ever selfish? That’s the test.

Well, I just asked my wife; and she said that I haven't been selfish lately (I would say, since the moment I came to the understanding of God's perfect and complete forgiveness)

Does everyone around you say this of your deeds? Do they all say you are full of the fruit of the Spirit? “Let another praise you.”

I actually try to go by that Proverb. But, of course, when you are trying to convince someone of the doctrine of entire sanctification, it is inevitable that they are going to question you. Now I don't know what people are saying about me because I don't usually ask. But I think my wife would be a good judge of whether I am living out the moral purity of the gospel or not.

But i’m willing to keep an eye on your posts and see how much they live up to your claim if your deeds and words. Got to thinking about one sarcastic post you wrote and that is definitely lacking the fruit of the spirit, not doing good so far.

I don't remember making any sarcastic comments (if you want to give thread name, page # and post # it would be greatly appreciated). And if I did, it may have been before I got the revelation that I have now (about complete forgiveness). Also, which fruit of the Spirit did my sarcastic comment violate?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you're saying that someone can have ultimate victory over the flesh apart from the power of the Spirit? Not sound doctrine; but I can see your point of view.

Where did I say that? But the fact is some people are able to resist the desires/passions of the flesh from time to time. This is a fact. You can ignore this fact or adjust your thinking in light of the truth.

Those who have the fruits of the spirit are teachable. Thought you said you have been set free from selfish desires. Resist pride. It’s selfish.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, I just asked my wife; and she said that I haven't been selfish lately (I would say, since the moment I came to the understanding of God's perfect and complete forgiveness)

Were you lately saved? If not your claim is false. By the way, understanding Gods perfect forgiveness doesn’t lead to unselfishness according to the Bible.

I actually try to go by that Proverb. But, of course, when you are trying to convince someone of the doctrine of entire sanctification, it is inevitable that they are going to question you.

Especially if they get a good look at your life.

Now I don't know what people are saying about me because I don't usually ask. But I think my wife would be a good judge of whether I am living out the moral purity of the gospel or not.

Since she doesn’t want to hurt you, she is less likely to say the truth. That she said only “lately” tells us that you were selfish before lately. Ask the people least likely to sing your praises. Jesus asked his ENEMIES if he had sinned, not his friends.

I don't remember making any sarcastic comments (if you want to give thread name, page # and post # it would be greatly appreciated). And if I did, it may have been before I got the revelation that I have now (about complete forgiveness). Also, which fruit of the Spirit did my sarcastic comment violate?

I will but it was written after you claimed you have Gods perfect revelation and have had your selfishness removed and the fruit of the spirit in you. Did not look like those things are evident in your words.

What I suspect is you believe those things about your character by faith. I might be wrong but most I meet who claim this sort of perfection do so by faith. That is, they claim are like Jesus cause they believe it, not because others actually see it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

By all means struggle against your flesh, as long as you think you need to. The harder you struggle, and the more you fail, the sooner you will come to the end of yourself so that you might understand that your only salvation can be in forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Christ.

This was not something a person filled with the Holy Spirit would say. Ok maybe not sarcasm, I admit. But Paul wrote that they should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Paul wrote he subjugated his flesh. No one wrote understanding Gods forgiveness removes selfishness. That’s cause it doesn’t. Loving others does.

The problem with focusing in on your own goodness is that it feeds pride. Moses was the most humble man on earth but that didn’t come from his lips. The reason is obvious.

It would be better not to focus on how unselfish you are. Do you see why? It’s selfish to make your goodness the center of attention. Talk about your wife’s unselfishness. It would be the unselfish thing to do.

 

[justbyfaith]

This was not something a person filled with the Holy Spirit would say. Ok maybe not sarcasm, I admit. But Paul wrote that they should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Paul wrote he subjugated his flesh. No one wrote understanding Gods forgiveness removes selfishness. That’s cause it doesn’t. Loving others does.

The problem with focusing in on your own goodness is that it feeds pride. Moses was the most humble man on earth but that didn’t come from his lips. The reason is obvious.

It would be better not to focus on how unselfish you are. Do you see why? It’s selfish to make your goodness the center of attention. Talk about your wife’s unselfishness. It would be the unselfish thing to do.

Actually, the statement that Moses was the meekest man on the face of the earth did come from Moses' pen.

It is not pride to understand that you are bearing the fruit of the Spirit (of which goodness is one). And it is not my goodness, it is His.

btw, it says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, not to work for it. A lot of people get that confused.

Why wouldn't someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit say that you need to come to the end of yourself? It seems to me that that is exactly what the Spirit Himself would say.

It might be pride to talk about how you are subjugating your flesh all of the time.

Understanding God's forgiveness brings us to the place of loving God and other people (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

And I began not by claiming to be a completely unselfish person, but by saying that God has set me free from certain selfish desires. Then you blew that out of proportion and started giving me the twenty questions (that is a figure of speech).

You also must not have a very good eye to see everything that is before you; because just underneath my moniker I make it clear that my opinion of myself is that I am a justified sinner.

I have found that since I have realized that, God has done a work of sanctifying me in certain areas that are noticeable even to me.

I am not claiming sinless perfection; only that I have noticed that I am a better person now than before I came to that certain revelation. This is not glory to me, nor is it any kind of reason for pride: God gets all the glory for what He has done in me.

 

[justbyfaith]

Were you lately saved? If not your claim is false. By the way, understanding Gods perfect forgiveness doesn’t lead to unselfishness according to the Bible.

What Bible verse or passage says that understanding God's perfect forgiveness doesn't lead to unselfishness?

Especially if they get a good look at your life.
Since she doesn’t want to hurt you, she is less likely to say the truth. That she said only “lately” tells us that you were selfish before lately. Ask the people least likely to sing your praises. Jesus asked his ENEMIES if he had sinned, not his friends.

I don't go out very often; and I'm not sure that I consider anyone to be an enemy (not even you, although you are to a certain degree hostile). But if I come across anyone that I truly consider to be an enemy, I will ask them whether they think that I am perfect or not. Actually I won't; because I know I'm not perfect; that description only applies to Jesus. Now I don't know if you are trying to argue with the concept that Christ can work a change in someone's heart; because I say to you that He has in mine. Whether that is a perfection or not is for Him to know and me to find out. I know nothing by myself; but I am not thereby justified: but He who judges me is the Lord. I do know that He says in Hebrews that He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I will but it was written after you claimed you have Gods perfect revelation and have had your selfishness removed and the fruit of the spirit in you. Did not look like those things are evident in your words.

I did not claim to have God's perfect revelation; rather I claimed to have a revelation of His perfect and complete forgiveness in my life. Luke 7:36-50 might tell you that having a revelation of forgiveness means that I might love Him and others much (with the result being unselfishness).

What I suspect is you believe those things about your character by faith. I might be wrong but most I meet who claim this sort of perfection do so by faith. That is, they claim are like Jesus cause they believe it, not because others actually see it.

Faith is something that is highly spoken of in the scriptures. And I don't claim to be exactly like Jesus, just that I have seen in my life that I am more like Him than I used to be.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm thinking of Christians who claim that we don't have to worry about sin because the Lord has taken care of that.

As far as I know, those are people who claim they don't sin (at least not "willful sin"), so they have nothing of which to repent.