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Sin unto death

Mark Quayle

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Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. It might be some other figure of speech. In the 18th century E.W. Bullinger identified 212 different "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" and published a book by that title. A parable has a specific format. Something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. Lazarus is not identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to his Disciples.
The 5 ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual. My final point, if Lazarus and the rich man was not factual, would Jesus use something false to clarify/explain something true?
In your opinion what is the moral of the story?
Pardon my ignorance but what is "The 5 ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man"?

Anyhow, yes, Jesus could easily speak to people through concepts or narratives familiar to them. Preachers do that all the time, and nobody calls it lying or presenting false information. It's a STORY!

The moral of the story is found in: ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ The statement is an indictment against the stubbornness of the fallen nature and/or the inability of the natural man to receive spiritual things. It also provides the rich irony —or foretelling— of his resurrection.
 
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Mark Quayle

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quote: "No! the Lord was at the crisis of His condemnation of the Pharisees for their false traditions which made the Word of God of none effect, and He makes use of those very teachings, adapting them to the great end of condemning them out of their own mouth."
huh? I can see taking that quote going to support either way. How is that quote relevant?

And who said it, btw?
 
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Mark Quayle

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The source is difficult. Can find copies by internet search.
No, it is not support either way. It is directly in Perfect Harmony with all Scripture, and contrary to the traditions of many people, thus difficult to look into for them.

So how does it support @Der Alte 's last statement/ rhetorical question? (i.e. "My final point, if Lazarus and the rich man was not factual, would Jesus use something false to clarify/explain something true?" —to which you answered, 'quote: "No! the Lord was at the crisis of His condemnation of the Pharisees for their false traditions which made the Word of God of none effect, and He makes use of those very teachings, adapting them to the great end of condemning them out of their own mouth."')
 
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Der Alte

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Pardon my ignorance but what is "The 5 ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man"?
Anyhow, yes, Jesus could easily speak to people through concepts or narratives familiar to them. Preachers do that all the time, and nobody calls it lying or presenting false information. It's a STORY!
The moral of the story is found in: ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ The statement is an indictment against the stubbornness of the fallen nature and/or the inability of the natural man to receive spiritual things. It also provides the rich irony —or foretelling— of his resurrection.
What about the Lazarus/rich man story included concepts or narratives familiar to Jesus' audience? Five of the Early Church Fathers [ECF] quoted/referred to the Lazarus/rich man story. All 5 considered the story to be factual. Quoted below.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.

Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.


Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

3. Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]

In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

4.The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.”Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

5.Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)

But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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If we lose hope in Jesus we lose faith in Jesus and lose salvation. We are warned to hold on to our hope. Can we lose hope in Jesus?

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

We see from Hebrews 9 that the cross covers our lifetime of sins. The cross was a life given for a lifetime of failures. A person who confesses their sins can be forgiven:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Also, we see in James that a person can wander away from the faith, and return, why, because the cross is available for a lifetime of sins.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
 
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Guojing

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Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

We see from Hebrews 9 that the cross covers our lifetime of sins. The cross was a life given for a lifetime of failures. A person who confesses their sins can be forgiven:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Also, we see in James that a person can wander away from the faith, and return, why, because the cross is available for a lifetime of sins.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

What about when one takes the mark of the beast?
 
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fli

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I don't remember your post , but I don't specifically remember anything taken out of context either.
I simply don't remember in Scripture if The Creator ever "disciplined"/"trained"?/ unbelievers or not, per se per the word for discipline or train.
I agree there is no son who is not only disciplined, but also more seriously scourged. Without scourging, a man cannot be The Eternal's son. It is clearly necessary per The Eternal's Word, likely OT , Torah, as well as NT, and throughout history and today.... although today would possibly anything be different in the scourging, as people are so undisciplined in life even, if one is to be saved, it will be a miracle even moreso, or so it seems.

Mr. Aaron112


Once again, I must apologize, In post 34 I did use scripture out of context. I used Hebrews 12 and stated that God only disciplined His children. That scripture does not prove that God only disciplines His children. As a matter of fact, I cannot find any justification for that statement.


In that post I implied that you did not know the basics. It seems as though I must not know the basics that God loves all and will take steps to lead them to the truth.


God bless.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Jesus used something He knew to be false, to confound the religious teachers withtheir own false beliefs.
Oh! So you were agreeing with me and, countering @Der Alte 's rhetorical, "My final point, if Lazarus and the rich man was not factual, would Jesus use something false to clarify/explain something true?" Thanks!
 
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Der Alte

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So how does it support @Der Alte 's last statement/ rhetorical question? (i.e. "My final point, if Lazarus and the rich man was not factual, would Jesus use something false to clarify/explain something true?" —to which you answered, 'quote: "No! the Lord was at the crisis of His condemnation of the Pharisees for their false traditions which made the Word of God of none effect, and He makes use of those very teachings, adapting them to the great end of condemning them out of their own mouth."')
@Aaron112 For the sake of this discussion let us assume for the moment that Jesus made use of the false teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees "adapting them to the great end of condemning them out of their own mouth."' How would former pagan gentile Christians in far off places e.g. Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica, Egypt, Babylon etc. understand the story of Lazarus and the rich man?
 
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Der Alte

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The Apostles, messengers of Jesus for the Gospel Sake, the Prophets , likewise, and the teachers approved by God,
would explain it properly to them all, as long as they had not yet become separated from the truth.
It was explained/ revealed to me truthfully, from all Scripture, in Perfect Harmony , and was not or is not difficult to understand then.
And when did this happen? I know of no record of it. They understood only what they heard once a week in house churches. Unlike us they didn't all have multiple electronic devices with multiple resources on them. Most could not even afford to buy one epistle, let alone a complete Bible or NT.
Many religious groups, e.g. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc. also claim that "scripture" was "explained/ revealed to them truthfully, from all Scripture, in Perfect Harmony, and was not or is not difficult to understand then."
And they are all equally convinced that they are right just as we are.
 
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Der Alte

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Jesus used something He knew to be false, to confound the religious teachers with their own false beliefs.
That is an unsupported opinion. Five of the early church fathers quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus/the rich man and all 5 considered the story factual. See my post #50, above.
 
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Mark Quayle

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@Aaron112 For the sake of this discussion let us assume for the moment that Jesus made use of the false teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees "adapting them to the great end of condemning them out of their own mouth."' How would former pagan gentile Christians in far off places e.g. Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica, Egypt, Babylon etc. understand the story of Lazarus and the rich man?
Your question seems to assume our conversation is off in a separate room from God's purpose for the story. Like with the question of why did God do what he did to Job, I say, one reason is so that we would have this conversation. There is no end to the things of Scripture that we don't have all the knowledge about, including what knowledge the contemporaries did have. None of us speaks the Koine Greek as a native or even as a practical user in ancient times. None of us was around back then. And even back then nobody had perfect understanding of anything.

In other words, what is it to us, how pagans or Christians alike in far off places understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man? Is there some reason to decide whether it was just a story or not based on whether they would have thought so or not?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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What about when one takes the mark of the beast?

The cross is there, but in this case, God does not want them to believe, because they have spent their lives in sin. So He sends them delusion so they will not believe. A person who takes the mark is deluded by God Himself.

2Th 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Yes, but as written, not always. There remains no more sacrifice for sin for those who trample underfoot the blood of Christ Jesus , as written by God Himself. He hates those who have a heart full of wickedness, who love darkness, and who have rejected His Perfect Sacrifice that would have been more than sufficient for sins, "would have been", except as written when it is not.

Because the bible tells us the cross covers a lifetime of sins, the verse you mention in Hebrews 6, means the person has fallen away in their sins to death. Only in the state of death is there no forgiveness. As it says in Ezekiel:

Eze 18:26-32 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"
 
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Guojing

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The cross is there, but in this case, God does not want them to believe, because they have spent their lives in sin. So He sends them delusion so they will not believe. A person who takes the mark is deluded by God Himself.

2Th 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So it is not exactly true that "We see from Hebrews 9 that the cross covers our lifetime of sins. The cross was a life given for a lifetime of failures. A person who confesses their sins can be forgiven:"?

At least that sin cannot be forgiven?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So it is not exactly true that "We see from Hebrews 9 that the cross covers our lifetime of sins. The cross was a life given for a lifetime of failures. A person who confesses their sins can be forgiven:"?

At least that sin cannot be forgiven?

Sin has a blinding effect:

Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

The cross is available to him who has ears to hear, and eyes to see. Jesus is the true light that brings light to every man coming into the world. What man does with that light determines whether they are saved or not. There are two pathways for man:

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We either through disobedience move closer to blindness, or obedience move toward life.

The cross is like a room with a door of escape, the door does not close, it is open. But our lives are like a light, while we live righteously we can see the door due to the light in our lives. If we snuff out the light through sin, the room becomes dark and we can not see the door of escape. It is still there, the cross never stops offering salvation. But our lives, how we live, will determine if we can see clearly enough to access it.
 
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Guojing

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Sin has a blinding effect:

Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

The cross is available to him who has ears to hear, and eyes to see. Jesus is the true light that brings light to every man coming into the world. What man does with that light determines whether they are saved or not. There are two pathways for man:

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We either through disobedience move closer to blindness, or obedience move toward life.

The cross is like a room with a door of escape, the door does not close, it is open. But our lives are like a light, while we live righteously we can see the door due to the light in our lives. If we snuff out the light through sin, the room becomes dark and we can not see the door of escape. It is still there, the cross never stops offering salvation. But our lives, how we live, will determine if we can see clearly enough to access it.

You still agree God will not forgive anyone who takes the mark of the beast during the tribulation?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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You still agree God will not forgive anyone who takes the mark of the beast during the tribulation?

Of course. But what is a "delusion", it is a lie. The truth is found in placing faith in Jesus to forgive. The reason a delusion is needed is so they "don't" place trust in the cross. The cross is available always.

2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

It is an important truth that the cross is always available, the reason is some Christians sin, and in ways they feel they can not be forgiven. But the good news is they "can" be forgiven. The truth of forgiveness needs to be presented always so that people can return to Christ. As James said:

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Don't get hung up on what sin is forgivable or not. While a person desires repentance they can have it.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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Guojing

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While a person desires repentance they can have it.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You said of course and you still contradict that with statements like these

After you take the mark of the beast, even if one desires repentance and confesses that sin, he is still unforgiven.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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You said of course and you still contradict that with statements like these

After you take the mark of the beast, even if one desires repentance and confesses that sin, he is still unforgiven.
What doctrine are you trying to build here? One that God does not forgive? He will forgive anyone who genuinely repents, a person who has taken the mark, has had a lifetime of denial of Jesus, and has no desire for repentance. Note:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

There are certain people who God does not desire to forgive, but that does not lower the power of the cross for man. Any man who desires repentance can have it. Anyone who has enough sight to see it, as a possibility. The deluded, those who take the mark have no desire for repentance, they are blind.
 
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