Sin that leads to death

[black-pawn]

1 John 5:16 says: "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make a request for this."(NAS '95)

Within the context of this epistle, what is this sin that leads to death? I believe that the sin that leads to death has to do with what John has been saying all along, but I would like to know what you guys believe this sin to be. Please explain briefly.

 

[Jonaitis]

I hope this is considered brief.

Some say it may refer to Docetism, a first-century Gnostic doctrine that taught Jesus did not appear in real human flesh. However, while there may be evidence of this throughout the epistle, I find that this isn't the only subject.

1 John 5:16 may be connected to 1 John 5:20-21, which reads:

"He is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols."

And together sounds similar to passages like Jeremiah 7:16-18,

"As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you. Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger."

I have a feeling that part of John's emphasis in the letter was concerned about idol worship and the opposition it draws to other believers. It appears that John does not fully explain in detail about the context of his letter, but assumes the recipients are fully aware of it and goes on to remind them about it. However, idolatry seems to be a key point.

Paul, the apostle, seems to mention this in passing in 1 Corinthians 10:14-22,

"Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?"

I'm going to assume that there was a persistent association with the pagan gods, temples, and practices that many non-Jewish Christians still had strong ties with outside Palestine. I can see this becoming a frequent problem. Some may figure that they could worship Christ alongside their pantheon, or that Christ was identifiable to a particular deity and so such reverent devotion was given to them as though it were given to Christ.

"As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you. Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger."
- Jeremiah 7:16-18

It may be, perhaps, that the unforgivable sin that John speaks of is the persistent idolatry within the Christian life, a relevant circumstance in the first-century Church.

"The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
- 1 John 3:8-10

 

[SavedByGrace3]

1 John 3:16 says: "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make a request for this."(NAS '95)

Within the context of this epistle, what is this sin that leads to death? I believe that the sin that leads to death has to do with what John has been saying all along, but I would like to know what you guys believe this sin to be. Please explain briefly.

Consider this context.
There is spiritual sin that leads to spiritual death, and fleshy sin that leads to death of the body.

1 John 5:16-17
16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him (physical) life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is a sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto (spiritual) death.


IOWs, if a brother sins a sin unto spiritual death, don't waste your time praying for him... you cannot help him.
If you see a brother sin a sin unto physical death, pray and the Lord will give him (physical) life.

I think the fornicating believer in 1 Corin 5 is an example. He fornicated, but it is said he was still with them (a believer). Paul wanted them to deliver the man up to Satan for destruction of the flesh. He wanted to do this so that the man would not progress to the sin to spiritual death resulting in the loss of his soul.

Galatians 6:7-8
7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Flesh sins reap flesh death (a sin not unto spiritual death may result in physical death).

 

[HTacianas]

1 John 3:16 says: "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make a request for this."(NAS '95)

Within the context of this epistle, what is this sin that leads to death? I believe that the sin that leads to death has to do with what John has been saying all along, but I would like to know what you guys believe this sin to be. Please explain briefly.

It is not a sin. It is sin leading to death. It's best described by the Roman Church's teaching on mortal and venial sin. A mortal sin is a sin that leads to death. He goes on to say "all unrighteousness is sin". Unrighteous acts are venial sins. The writer states that there is a difference between the two.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

1 John 3:16 says: "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make a request for this."(NAS '95)

Within the context of this epistle, what is this sin that leads to death? I believe that the sin that leads to death has to do with what John has been saying all along, but I would like to know what you guys believe this sin to be. Please explain briefly.

It should be read "sin unto death" or sin till death. It simply means that the sin of "unbelief" can not be forgiven after you die. Blessings.

 

[black-pawn]

It should be read "sin unto death" or sin till death. It simply means that the sin of "unbelief" can not be forgiven after you die. Blessings.

I disagree because nothing of the sort is implied, but thanks for your input.

 

[black-pawn]

It is not a sin. It is sin leading to death. It's best described by the Roman Church's teaching on mortal and venial sin. A mortal sin is a sin that leads to death. He goes on to say "all unrighteousness is sin". Unrighteous acts are venial sins. The writer states that there is a difference between the two.

Sin is sin regardless of how you or the Catholic Church describes it. Have you read 1 Epistle of John? If you haven't, it would be a good idea to do so because the answer is within this epistle. But I'm curious, can you define what sin is, that is, biblically speaking?

 

[black-pawn]

Consider this context.
There is spiritual sin that leads to spiritual death, and fleshy sin that leads to death of the body.

1 John 5:16-17
16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him (physical) life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is a sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto (spiritual) death.


IOWs, if a brother sins a sin unto spiritual death, don't waste your time praying for him... you cannot help him.
If you see a brother sin a sin unto physical death, pray and the Lord will give him (physical) life.

I think the fornicating believer in 1 Corin 5 is an example. He fornicated, but it is said he was still with them (a believer). Paul wanted them to deliver the man up to Satan for destruction of the flesh. He wanted to do this so that the man would not progress to the sin to spiritual death resulting in the loss of his soul.

Galatians 6:7-8
7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Flesh sins reap flesh death (a sin not unto spiritual death may result in physical death).

I believe the answer is within the epistle of John without having to go fishing someplace else. The sin that leads to death appears to be the denial of the incarnation which the Gnostics did when they went around saying that the flesh is sinful therefore it was impossible for God to have become a Man. By denying the incarnation, they denied redemption and salvation by faith. Anyone who became a Gnostic had committed the sin that leads to death. This is my opinion of course, which is based on the first epistle of John, which he fought wholeheartedly against.

Below is a link to what Gnosticism was all about. Thank you for your input!

Gnosticism vs. The Incarnation: The Ancient Battle Renewed

www.catholicworldreport.com

 

[black-pawn]

I hope this is considered brief.

Some say it may refer to Docetism, a first-century Gnostic doctrine that taught Jesus did not appear in real human flesh. However, while there may be evidence of this throughout the epistle, I find that this isn't the only subject.

1 John 5:16 may be connected to 1 John 5:20-21, which reads:

And together sounds similar to passages like Jeremiah 7:16-18,

I have a feeling that part of John's emphasis in the letter was concerned about idol worship and the opposition it draws to other believers. It appears that John does not fully explain in detail about the context of his letter, but assumes the recipients are fully aware of it and goes on to remind them about it. However, idolatry seems to be a key point.

Paul, the apostle, seems to mention this in passing in 1 Corinthians 10:14-22,

I'm going to assume that there was a persistent association with the pagan gods, temples, and practices that many non-Jewish Christians still had strong ties with outside Palestine. I can see this becoming a frequent problem. Some may figure that they could worship Christ alongside their pantheon, or that Christ was identifiable to a particular deity and so such reverent devotion was given to them as though it were given to Christ.

It may be, perhaps, that the unforgivable sin that John speaks of is the persistent idolatry within the Christian life, a relevant circumstance in the first-century Church.

Your response is well thought out, but I dissent because just about everyone is an idolater who worships themselves, their own ideas, their intellect, etc. This means that everyone has committed a sin that leads to death which would make the preaching of the gospel an impossible task to accomplish.

 

[Jonaitis]

Your response is well thought out, but I dissent because just about everyone is an idolater who worships themselves, their own ideas, their intellect, etc. This means that everyone has committed a sin that leads to death which would make the preaching of the gospel an impossible task to accomplish.

I understand, I am just considering the historical context of John's letter. Actual idolatry was a big deal in the Church during its early expansion into the Roman Empire. Paul addresses this issue in a few of his letters. It may seem of little relevance to us today, because such practices are almost non-existent in Western world.

 

[HTacianas]

Sin is sin regardless of how you or the Catholic Church describes it. Have you read 1 Epistle of John? If you haven't, it would be a good idea to do so because the answer is within this epistle. But I'm curious, can you define what sin is, that is, biblically speaking?

I've read 1 John. And no, sin is not sin. There are minor sins and major sins. Under the old covenant there were sins that could be atoned for and sins that could not be atoned for.

 

[black-pawn]

I've read 1 John. And no, sin is not sin. There are minor sins and major sins. Under the old covenant there were sins that could be atoned for and sins that could not be atoned for.

We don't live under the old covenant. Sin is defined as breaking a relationship with God and acting independently of Him. If you are not in union with Christ and have not trusted Him to be your Lord and your Savior, then you cannot understand what I'm saying. Sin no matter how small in oour perception is big in God's eyes.

We don't get to say what sin is venial and what sin is grave. Sin is Sin regardless of how we qualify it.

 

[HTacianas]

We don't live under the old covenant. Sin is defined as breaking a relationship with God and acting independently of Him. If you are not in union with Christ and have not trusted Him to be your Lord and your Savior, then you cannot understand what I'm saying. Sin no matter how small in oour perception is big in God's eyes.

We don't get to say what sin is venial and what sin is grave. Sin is Sin regardless of how we qualify it.

Actually, no. If there were no differences in sins the writer of 1 John would not have gone out of his way to say that there is. He plainly states "there is sin unto death" and "there is sin not unto death". Those two are different.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

It is not a sin. It is sin leading to death. It's best described by the Roman Church's teaching on mortal and venial sin. A mortal sin is a sin that leads to death. He goes on to say "all unrighteousness is sin". Unrighteous acts are venial sins. The writer states that there is a difference between the two.

Can you post the correct scripture reference? 1 John 3:16 is not what you claim it says.

I believe the answer is within the epistle of John without having to go fishing someplace else. The sin that leads to death appears to be the denial of the incarnation which the Gnostics did when they went around saying that the flesh is sinful therefore it was impossible for God to have become a Man. By denying the incarnation, they denied redemption and salvation by faith. Anyone who became a Gnostic had committed the sin that leads to death. This is my opinion of course, which is based on the first epistle of John, which he fought wholeheartedly against.

Below is a link to what Gnosticism was all about. Thank you for your input!

Gnosticism vs. The Incarnation: The Ancient Battle Renewed

www.catholicworldreport.com

Yet if they repented from this sin ,like all sins , it will be forgiven.

 

[black-pawn]

Can you post the correct scripture reference? 1 John 3:16 is not what you claim it says.

Yet if they repented from this sin ,like all sins , it will be forgiven.

1 John 5:16. I apologize.

 

[black-pawn]

Actually, no. If there were no differences in sins the writer of 1 John would not have gone out of his way to say that there is. He plainly states "there is sin unto death" and "there is sin not unto death". Those two are different.

In the old covenant, sins were forgiven but they had to offer their blood sacrifices over and over again because the blood of goats or bulls was not enough to deal with their sins. In the new covenant, sins were forgiven once and for all because the Lamb of God had made the final sacrifice (on the cross) that takes away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29), yet despite that, we are made responsible for all our sins whether they are "white lies" or "deceptive lies." We must forsake all sins regardless of what they are because sin breaks our relationship with the Lord. The Holy Spirit will let us know what we need to do when a sin against someone else has been committed. Having a relationship with the Lord makes it more difficult to ignore our sins, that is, if you hold that relationship with Him dear to your heart.

Nowhere in the scripture do we find that venial sins are not "as bad" as the more serious ones. This deception would lead us to teach that "minor sins" (in our view) don't matter that much because they are not significant in comparison with the major ones. Remember what Yeshua said back in Matt. 5:19:

Matthew 5:19 (LSB) “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

[black-pawn]

I understand, I am just considering the historical context of John's letter. Actual idolatry was a big deal in the Church during its early expansion into the Roman Empire. Paul addresses this issue in a few of his letters. It may seem of little relevance to us today, because such practices are almost non-existent in Western world.

Idolatry begins at the very core of our beings regardless of time or culture. So, whether we worship an idol made out of clay or not, is the same thing. As for your point that such practices are almost non-existent today, you should consider Catholics who do, at least in So. and Central America, including Mexico. Some European countries like Italy and Poland are also very Catholic and practice the adoration of Mary and the saints.

 

[black-pawn]

It should be read "sin unto death" or sin till death. It simply means that the sin of "unbelief" can not be forgiven after you die. Blessings.

Yes, the LSV agrees with what you said although the NAS95 and its parent translation the LSB do say what I quoted even though these are counted as the most literal translations. But after further inspection, I found out that the verb "leading" was added (shown in italics) to help the reader understand the passage better.

1 John 5:16 (LSV) If anyone may see his brother sinning a sin [that is] not to death, he will ask, and He will give life to him—to those not sinning to death; there is sin to death—I do not say that he may ask concerning it."

1 John 5:16 (NAS'95/LSB) "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; do not say that he should make request for this."

What translation do you use?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Yes, the LSV agrees with what you said although the NAS95 and its parent translation the LSB do say what I quoted even though these are counted as the most literal translations. But after further inspection, I found out that the verb "leading" was added (shown in italics) to help the reader understand the passage better.

1 John 5:16 (LSV) If anyone may see his brother sinning a sin [that is] not to death, he will ask, and He will give life to him—to those not sinning to death; there is sin to death—I do not say that he may ask concerning it."

1 John 5:16 (NAS'95/LSB) "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; do not say that he should make request for this."

What translation do you use?

NKJV

 

[Valletta]

Idolatry begins at the very core of our beings regardless of time or culture. So, whether we worship an idol made out of clay or not, is the same thing. As for your point that such practices are almost non-existent today, you should consider Catholics who do, at least in So. and Central America, including Mexico. Some European countries like Italy and Poland are also very Catholic and practice the adoration of Mary and the saints.

It is Catholic teaching that the worship for God is for God alone. Don't confuse this with the veneration of saints, they are fine examples for us. We all should call the Mother of God blessed. We ask the saints to pray for us--the Bible says we are to pray for one another. There are many forms of idolatry, it could be you or others practice some form of idolatry more than the Catholics you accuse. This is up to Our Lord to judge.