Sin No More

[Montalban]

Still not what I'm looking for. We all sin, before and after salvation. Why don't you give me a more complete answer?

I believe I have

 

[Montalban]

Why are they covered? Wouldn't it be better to not sin? We'll assume, for the sake of discussion, that Man can actually overcome being a sinful entity.

I appreciate your earlier questions however man can over come sins only 'in co-operation' with God.

But the notion given here by some Protestants that his sins have all been paid for means that there's no consequences any more for his actions and that takes away free-will, or one aspect of that co-operation.

 

[MorganFamilyMinistry]

How can they be sins if I don't know I'm committing them? How can I seek forgiveness if I don't know I've sinned? Wouldn't the sins I unknowingly commit be automatically forgiven if I adhere to the conditions of Salvation, all the moreso since they are so trivial as to not be known, or I'm such a wretched thing that I cannot tell Right from Wrong?

I personally believe in eternal security. Which means that once saved, always saved. As in you can't sin your way out of salvation. I know others will disagree with this and the arguments about it have been going on for centuries.

There are sins that people don't realize they are committing until it is brought to their attention such as lack of faith or not trusting God.

Romans 8:26-27
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Fuzzy]

But the notion given here by some Protestants that his sins have all been paid for means that there's no consequences any more for his actions and that takes away free-will, or one aspect of that co-operation.

So, would you say that Christ's Sacrifice allows for Salvation (rather than definitively granting it), and that each person must take steps (faith, works) to maintain access?

 

[Hakan101]

I believe I have

You haven't, sir. As I understood it, Jesus died for all our sins, both those we have committed and will commit. You haven't clarified why this isn't the case, or exactly which kind of sins we might commit in the future that will "undo" this salvation.

 

[3rdHeaven]

No one gets a license to sin! Jesus did not give his life so you can go on living your wretched depraved life! Any one who thinks this will be in for a very rude awakening!

When ever Jesus forgave some one he told them "sin no more".

Certainly we all sin, but there are consequences for our actions, you can not change the law of cause and effect!

If some one punches you in your eye, you will get a black eye! Even if you forgive them before they punch you!

You must strive to sin no more, and when you fail and sin, show remorse and ask for forgiveness! And mean it!

If you believe you do not need to do any thing after you sin, and can keep on sinning, you are under the false assumption you been granted a license to sin! Your a thief and a liar! You can sing all the songs you want and speak all the tongues you want and jump up and down all you want, doesn't change a thing!

Jesus died for us so that we may have everlasting life, not so that we may continue to sin without penalties.

 

[Montalban]

So, would you say that Christ's Sacrifice allows for Salvation (rather than definitively granting it), and that each person must take steps (faith, works) to maintain access?

Absolutely.

The nature of God, we must change ourselves to be like him, which is possible as he restored us, opening the way for this.

But it takes our active participation, and it's not a one off declaration.

Because faith without works is dead.

Jesus himself asked "When I was in prison, did you visit me?" and then he separates the sheep from the goats based on this.

We must change our nature, and this is an exercise that takes a life.

 

[Montalban]

No one gets a license to sin! Jesus did not give his life so you can go on living your wretched depraved life! Any one who thinks this will be in for a very rude awakening!

But for those who say that they're saved, are you saying that they can be un-saved?

When ever Jesus forgave some one he told them "sin no more".

Absolutely, but people still do sin. "Sin no more" is the goal.

Certainly we all sin, but there are consequences for our actions, you can not change the law of cause and effect!

You can if you believe you're already saved

 

[Montalban]

You haven't, sir. As I understood it, Jesus died for all our sins, both those we have committed and will commit. You haven't clarified why this isn't the case, or exactly which kind of sins we might commit in the future that will "undo" this salvation.

First off I didn't maintain that a future sin will 'undo' salvation. That was the point I was making – if you think you're saved then NOTHING you do from now on really matters, because you're already saved.

You could go out and murder. It won't matter.

I don't believe that salvation is a one-off statement but a continual commitment to Christ.

If I go out today and murdered and remained unrepentant then I am saying "I reject God" and God will accordingly respect my free will and I won't be with him (which is with heaven)

Your version has it that once you say you're with God then you can no longer change your mind because God has locked you into a contract

 

[3rdHeaven]

But for those who say that they're saved, are you saying that they can be un-saved?

Absolutely, but people still do sin. "Sin no more" is the goal.

You can if you believe you're already saved

I don't believe you can be un-saved. But there is the danger of falling away!

Also, not every one who says they are saved are actually saved. Not every one who says Lord, Lord will enter heaven.

I believe it is possible to need to work out some issues in a place or state of being you reject, purgatory.

In the end, nothing can change God's Will which is Cause and Effect.

I would strongly caution people who believe they have a license to sin. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Fuzzy]

You haven't, sir. As I understood it, Jesus died for all our sins, both those we have committed and will commit. You haven't clarified why this isn't the case, or exactly which kind of sins we might commit in the future that will "undo" this salvation.

So....I could kill people, and knowingly commit egregious crimes against the spirituality and lives of others for 50 years, but if I truly repented and accepted Christ at year 25, then by your presentation I will receive Salvation.

 

[Hakan101]

First off I didn't maintain that a future sin will 'undo' salvation. That was the point I was making – if you think you're saved then NOTHING you do from now on really matters, because you're already saved.

You could go out and murder. It won't matter.

I don't believe that salvation is a one-off statement but a continual commitment to Christ.

If I go out today and murdered and remained unrepentant then I am saying "I reject God" and God will accordingly respect my free will and I won't be with him (which is with heaven)

Your version has it that once you say you're with God then you can no longer change your mind because God has locked you into a contract

Thank you, I understand now. My belief is not that we can no longer change our mind, but that nothing short of rejecting God can take away our salvation once we have it. I agree that once we are saved, there should be noticeable change and fruit in our lives. Paul tells us that we are not to keep on sinning because of God's grace, since sin is no longer our master, God is. He also lets us know that we were created in Christ to do good works, and James touches on this as well.

Your words sounded like if one has accepted Jesus but then commits murder, then he is ultimately condemned. Though I would strongly question the faith of a Christian who commits murder, I disagree with this in principle. No sin is too great that we cannot repent and be forgiven by God. We continually sin even after accepting Christ, but we strive to become more like him.

 

[3rdHeaven]

So....I could kill people, and knowingly commit egregious crimes against the spirituality and lives of others for 50 years, but if I truly repented and accepted Christ at year 25, then by your presentation I will receive Salvation.

I would say you were never saved under that scenario you gave. You did not truly repent. Only provided lip service. And we all know talk is cheap, you gotta do the walk too!

 

[Fuzzy]

I would say you were never saved under that scenario you gave. You did not truly repent. Only provided lip service. And we all know talk is cheap, you gotta do the walk too!

Who would know if one had Truly Repented?

 

[Montalban]

Thank you, I understand now. My belief is not that we can no longer change our mind, but that nothing short of rejecting God can take away our salvation once we have it. I agree that once we are saved, there should be noticeable change and fruit in our lives. Paul tells us that we are not to keep on sinning because of God's grace, since sin is no longer our master, God is. He also lets us know that we were created in Christ to do good works, and James touches on this as well.

Your words sounded like if one has accepted Jesus but then commits murder, then he is ultimately condemned. Though I would strongly question the faith of a Christian who commits murder, I disagree with this in principle. No sin is too great that we cannot repent and be forgiven by God. We continually sin even after accepting Christ, but we strive to become more like him.

then Paul's words are meaningless.

If he says to stop sinning, it is meaningless because if you're already saved then there is no difference whether you further sin or not

He's therefore asking you to do something that has no consequence any more to your salvation

 

[3rdHeaven]

Who would know if one had Truly Repented?

Because I believe your scenario would be impossible if they truly repented.

Lest we over look predestination.

 

[Montalban]

Who would know if one had Truly Repented?

That's the very problem Protestants faced and somewhat 'solved' with the idea of evidence of God's grace

The idea is that God would give you hints by showing you favour. One of the signs of favour was that you would be better off. The more better off*you were the more of a sign of God's favour, and voila, you have "The Protestant Work Ethic." Max Weber came up with this...

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism


It was also his attempt to explain why the Industrial Revolution lead to massive industrial growth in Protestant nations such as GB and Germany.

*-not sure if more better off is good English

 

[Montalban]

Because I believe your scenario would be impossible if they truly repented.

So you don't sin any more?

 

[Montalban]

Who would know if one had Truly Repented?

For Catholics they have the penitent cycle.

One sins. He/she goes to confession. Is forgiven, and restored to grace. Then one sins again. He/she goes to confession again.

And so on and so on.

After a while this was easily exploited by a corrupt papacy with the idea of changing penance to a cash payment called an Indulgence.
Indulgence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These also served to pay for building programs in the Vatican (payment was called Peter's Pence).

Martin Luther say the obvious corruption but only knew of the Catholic Church as his point of frame-work.

He 'protested' against it. Unable to see a way of reform in the church he had to come up with a viable idea of 'salvation outside the church' and in this he came up with a new way of being saved – one without the 'need' for the penitent cycle.

He even re-wrote some of the NT to match what he thought Paul might want to say. Such as changing "Man is saved by faith" to "Man is saved by faith alone"

 

[Hakan101]

then Paul's words are meaningless.

If he says to stop sinning, it is meaningless because if you're already saved then there is no difference whether you further sin or not

He's therefore asking you to do something that has no consequence any more to your salvation

Not meaningless at all, he is saying both that God's grace is greater than all of our sin, but that we do not keep on wantonly sinning because of his grace. He said if sin is no longer our master, but God is, well then slaves must obey their masters. It's not about sin anymore, it's about doing God's will.