Sin No More

Montalban said:

Are you saved?

Yes?

Then is there any sin you can now do that can change that status?

No?

Then you could murder.

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Montalban, he is pointing out that Jesus covered all sins, he is not saying once saved always saved. Every sin is the same to God. We are all sinners, it doesnt mean go out and murder, we try to do our best, but we fall short, hence the need for Jesus!!!

Montalban said:

Absolutely.

The nature of God, we must change ourselves to be like him, which is possible as he restored us, opening the way for this.

But it takes our active participation, and it's not a one off declaration.

Because faith without works is dead.

Jesus himself asked "When I was in prison, did you visit me?" and then he separates the sheep from the goats based on this.

We must change our nature, and this is an exercise that takes a life.

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Are these works done out of fear of losing your salvation or are they done out of love for your fellow man?

If you have the Holy spirit in you, then I believe that you will feel compelled
to do these acts of kindness and charity. Not because you are working for your salvation, but because the love of Christ is in you.

Scott

MorganFamilyMinistry said:

Like I said, "IF a person is saved". Which would imply that they were not only believers, But they had accepted the gift of salvation. As Paul said, You have to believe that God exists to have Faith.

Yes, sins committed after salvation are covered as well.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

I know a woman who went from Christianity to Witchcraft. She was angry with God for a time. She was even turning other Christians away from God. Then she wanted to come back to Christ, But she Kept hearing the lie that there was no hope for her. When I met her she was in a miserable state. I shared with her that God wants reconciliation. No matter what she had done, God would forgive her. I shared the passages about how Paul had persecuted Christians and yet God used him in a mighty way. You should have seen the relief the brought to her. She was crying, because she was so grateful to God.

There seems to be a belief among some of the unsaved that God will not accept them because of what they have done or they are not good enough to be saved. This is a lie from the pit of hell. 1 John 1:9 (Above) tells us that he will cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Jesus never said to get a hair cut and clean up your act before you come to him. He just said COME!

Thanks,
Scott

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Amen

Montalban said:

For Catholics they have the penitent cycle.

One sins. He/she goes to confession. Is forgiven, and restored to grace. Then one sins again. He/she goes to confession again.

And so on and so on.

After a while this was easily exploited by a corrupt papacy with the idea of changing penance to a cash payment called an Indulgence.
Indulgence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These also served to pay for building programs in the Vatican (payment was called Peter's Pence).

Martin Luther say the obvious corruption but only knew of the Catholic Church as his point of frame-work.

He 'protested' against it. Unable to see a way of reform in the church he had to come up with a viable idea of 'salvation outside the church' and in this he came up with a new way of being saved – one without the 'need' for the penitent cycle.

He even re-wrote some of the NT to match what he thought Paul might want to say. Such as changing "Man is saved by faith" to "Man is saved by faith alone"

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Nowhere in the Bible does it say we have to confess our sins to a priest/man to be forgiven. I confess my sins directly to God.

A couple of good quotes I read awhile ago regarding this subject:

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future.

How could anyone who understands God's unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God's face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ.

Montalban said:

So you don't sin any more?

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U need to follow each post to keep the meaning accurate instead of pulling verses out of context

I will let you do the foot work, but not what I said, need to follow the posts.

I regard there to be two fundamental problems, theologically, in these sorts of discussions.

On the one hand a soteriological system that proposes that we must contribute our own power and must sustain ourselves to the rigorous demands of Divine Law in order to ensure we remain in God's good graces is a legalism that can either bring pride or despair. For if we imagine we are achieving this then it is far too easy to imagine ourselves the moral superior over others, failing to recognize our shortcomings, and if failing to notice the logs in our own eyes become the very hypocrites Christ Himself railed against in the Gospels. On the other hand, upon realizing our own shortcomings despair comes like a flood, and we come to resent ourselves and God, becoming angry that He, being Righteous Judge, holds us to an impossible standard that we can never live up to and, damning us as sinners in both this life and the next.

On the other hand a soteriological system that proposes that we have performed the right actions--a choice, a prayer, whatever-have-you--and therefore are now Saved™ and therefore are free to do whatever it is we like this too brings pride. For it reduces salvation to an easy ticket to heavenly bliss, we see ourselves as untouchable. I once heard a man put it in language saying that it is a contract which God is unable to go against, should we become the worst kind of person who in word and deed hates God, hates Christ and hates His creation is untouchable, eternally secure, and is therefore without humility or reverent fear.

Both are wholly unacceptable. Rather, we recognize our own failings and hope for grace, trusting in God's promises that there is forgiveness of sin. Repentance is a lifestyle pursued because of our faith and love of Christ. We do not become confident in our own ability, or in our own choices, but are confident in a God who loves us. Wherever there is sin, there is grace all the more to save us, deliver us, forgive us, and bring healing. We are bold sinners, and because of this our faith in Christ should be all the more bold. We fling ourselves headlong in radical trust that there is a God who loves us, who in Christ there is forgiveness. We recognize that we will fail at what we ought to do, but we do not despair because God loves sinners, God saves sinners. It is the sick who need a doctor, and our physician is Christ who mends our sickness with the soothing balm of His Gospel.

Our security is not because "we got saved", it's in Christ who is saving us.

Faith isn't mental assent. Faith is a bold trust in Jesus. Faith does not ask if good works should be done, it just does them. If we imagine ourselves morally superior or untouchable then we do not have faith, we have a cheap substitute, what Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls Cheap Grace.

"Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ."

In contrast to Costly Grace:

"Costly grace confronts us as a gracious call to follow Jesus, it comes as a word of forgiveness to the broken spirit and the contrite heart. It is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: 'My yoke is easy and my burden is light.'"

Bonhoeffer also writes, "When Christ calls a man, He bids him, 'Come and die.'"

We administer the Law to the arrogant and the proud, reminding them that they are grave sinners, no better than anyone else and that we have all screwed up and act like screw ups.

We administer the Gospel to the fallen sinner, the screw up, proclaiming the unyielding grace and compassion and kindness which God has for each of us. That there needs be no despair, there is hope. That we are each and every one of us valuable and valued by God as His beloved. There is no one on this planet that is not the beloved of God.

The Law keeps us humble. It says, "You are indeed a great sinner."
The Gospel keeps us hopeful. It says, "You are created and loved by God, it matters not what you've done, there is a place for you in God's kingdom and family."

-CryptoLutheran

anada said:

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we have to confess our sins to a priest/man to be forgiven. I confess my sins directly to God.

A couple of good quotes I read awhile ago regarding this subject:

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future.

How could anyone who understands God's unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God's face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ.

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Private Confession shouldn't be universally rejected even if it is not required. As it is written, "Confess your sins one to another," and also "The prayer of the righteous avails much".

In Lutheranism, and I believe all traditional liturgical churches, we confess our sins at every Divine Service, we do this corporately as the people of God. We speak as a congregation, confessing our sins, and the pastor speaks the words of Absolution which is real forgiveness. Not because the pastor has "power to forgive sins" but because as per the teaching of Jesus, "Whoever's sins you remit are remitted" who then speaks the words, which is the word of God for us, from God, not man, that carries the Gospel promise, that we are forgiven. That all and any who confess are forgiven.

This doesn't negate in our alone time confessing our sins directly to God. There shouldn't be just one way of doing this. We can do this just between us and God, we can do this corporately as the Church during the Liturgy, or we can do this between ourselves and our pastor or a trustworthy brother or sister. The benefit, however, of private confession to a pastor is that it's private, and does not become gossip among the Faithful.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Private Confession shouldn't be universally rejected even if it is not required. As it is written, "Confess your sins one to another," and also "The prayer of the righteous avails much".

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I'm all for humbling our selves and confessing to God. And we should confess to each other. (People who will not gossip). There is an added benefit in that we can hold each other to account. "Hey Joe how are you doing with such and such that you were dealing with." We can also ask for help in those areas.

Scott

ViaCrucis said:

Private Confession shouldn't be universally rejected even if it is not required. As it is written, "Confess your sins one to another," and also "The prayer of the righteous avails much".

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I didn't say it should be flat rejected, I said there is no link between confessing sins to a man and forgiveness. Yes it is written that we should confess our trespasses to one another but no mention of forgiveness being attained in this way. For it is written:

1 Timothy 2:5
"5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

Avelina777 said:

Montalban, he is pointing out that Jesus covered all sins, he is not saying once saved always saved. Every sin is the same to God. We are all sinners, it doesnt mean go out and murder, we try to do our best, but we fall short, hence the need for Jesus!!!

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The impression I got was that his future sins have also been paid for. I could be wrong in that impression

anada said:

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we have to confess our sins to a priest/man to be forgiven. I confess my sins directly to God.

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As far as I'm concerned that's a non-issue as we Orthodox don't confess to the priest but before the priest.

anada said:

A couple of good quotes I read awhile ago regarding this subject:

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future.

How could anyone who understands God's unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God's face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ.

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Do you sin?

MorganFamilyMinistry said:

Are these works done out of fear of losing your salvation or are they done out of love for your fellow man?

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I don't believe in 'loosing a salvation' as I don't believe I'm saved at one point in my life and that's it. I thought I'd explained this. Being 'saved' is a life-long process

anada said:

If you have the Holy spirit in you, then I believe that you will feel compelled to do these acts of kindness and charity. Not because you are working for your salvation, but because the love of Christ is in you.

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Ask yourself these two questions
a) do oyu have the Holy Spirit in you?
and
b) do you still sin?

anada said:

Scott

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-M

Hakan101 said:

Not meaningless at all, he is saying both that God's grace is greater than all of our sin, but that we do not keep on wantonly sinning because of his grace. He said if sin is no longer our master, but God is, well then slaves must obey their masters. It's not about sin anymore, it's about doing God's will.

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Why are you asked not to sin further if your heart's been changed and you're now saved and compelled to not sin?

If God is the master, why tell us not to sin? We'd not sin out of compulsion to our master

This thread really belongs on General Theology

Montalban said:

This thread really belongs on General Theology

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I concur.

-CryptoLutheran

anada said:

I didn't say it should be flat rejected, I said there is no link between confessing sins to a man and forgiveness. Yes it is written that we should confess our trespasses to one another but no mention of forgiveness being attained in this way. For it is written:

1 Timothy 2:5
"5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

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It's important to understand that Private Confession, as practiced in Roman Catholicism, is not about the priest being a "go between" between man and God; but is rather about the priest fulfilling his pastoral office, received down through the centuries from the apostles, where Christ gave the apostles the authority to pronounce forgiveness of sins. The priest, of himself, has no power or authority, it is only by virtue of his office and the words of Jesus that he speaks those words of Absolution, "your sins are forgiven". The forgiveness is from God alone, by the power and authority of Christ alone. The priest is merely fulfilling that duty and responsibility, to speak those words.

It should not be underestimated just how powerful hearing "you are forgiven" can be. Whether we hear it read from Scripture or hear it spoken from our pastor, or from a close friend whom we had injured. There is a peace that comes from hearing that our injurious action or word is mended, and communion is restored.

-CryptoLutheran

Montalban said:

As far as I'm concerned that's a non-issue as we Orthodox don't confess to the priest but before the priest.

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Do you have to? What would happen if you didn't?

Do you sin?

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Yep. Do you?

anada said:

Do you have to? What would happen if you didn't?

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Could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain this is done every Divine Liturgy. It happens every Sunday. It thus becomes moot to ask "what if you didn't?" because every Orthodox Christian is participating in it every time he or she gathers for the Liturgy.

And if an Orthodox Christian happened to miss church one week, they would simply be going the following Sunday.

Most days, I'd wager, an Orthodox Christian is doing as any other Christian: spending time in prayer which includes confession and repentance.

-CryptoLutheran

anada said:

Do you have to? What would happen if you didn't?

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Self-deception is an easy thing. The priest in our church has the role of bearing witness.

anada said:

Yep. Do you?

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All the time.

However you had said earlier:
How could anyone who understands God's unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God's face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ.

Does this mean you're not demonstrating that eternal security?

ViaCrucis said:

Could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain this is done every Divine Liturgy. It happens every Sunday. It thus becomes moot to ask "what if you didn't?" because every Orthodox Christian is participating in it every time he or she gathers for the Liturgy.

And if an Orthodox Christian happened to miss church one week, they would simply be going the following Sunday.

Most days, I'd wager, an Orthodox Christian is doing as any other Christian: spending time in prayer which includes confession and repentance.

-CryptoLutheran

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More power to you!