Sin is Sin All Sins Are Equal.

[LightHorseman]

sorry... what divisions? show them to me please?

 

[onemessiah]

[Staff Edit]

It is harmful ]ecuz it goes against God's established order for the family unit.
It is immoral, therefore, IT IS HARMFUL TO SOCIETY and those participating in it on a moral & spiritual level.

I don't expect a non Christian to see the harm in it; becuz they reject God's laws and moral standards.
They also don't see the wrong and harm in many other things Christians do. For that matter, you can justify abortion since you mite not see the "harm" it causes by the "good" you see it performing for people.

But the majority of women getting abortions are single who are having sex outside wedlock which is sin - that is harm.
Porn is often viewed as harmless - it's not harmless in many ways and even secular professionals will admit to what those are. But if you as a person LIKE porn, and think it's fine, you wont' see the harm in it.

Harm is relative to those who embrace relativism and morality is not relative. Essentially, you decide what is moral according to your standards (or lack thereof).

Redefining the marriage union is harmful to everyone as people are reconditioned to accept what is sinful and wrong. That is harm.
Whether you view it that way or not. And AS a non believer, we don't expect you to until God is allowed to change the heart.

There is more than physical harm involved in harm. There is emotional and spiritual harms to consider as well.

So basically, it all boils down to whether or not you believe in the bible. There are religions that not only accept homosexuality, but embrace it by performing ceremonial acts of homosexuality. So who's right, the bible or them? Who knows, because NEITHER one can be proven to be truthful or authorative. You can only hope and believe that your particular belief is what it claims to be.

That being said, the rest of us do just fine developing our own moral code without the aide of ancient textbooks. The only harm caused by homosexuality is the discrimination and ostracizing of homosexuals. All of that stems from certain religions, not from anyone else. There is nothing, NOTHING inherently "wrong" or "immoral" about a person's sexuality. Just because the bible says it is, doesn't make it so. For example, your bible endorses slavery. I think that is a vile thing to do, but since the bible endorses it, am I wrong for opposing that too?

And for future reference, non-christians don't reject god or his laws. They reject the bible. Not the same thing, unless you can prove otherwise. I don't expect that you can, since no one has been able to it in 2000 years that christianity has existed.

So the bottom line is, until the day comes that we have real evidence to suggest that the bible is what it claims itself to be, the civilized world has no other option than to treat it like we do any other fairy tale, and move on with life.

 

[onemessiah]

Yes, they team up with them to gang up on "conservatives" (mostly) and sound like them many times.

There's a definite reason for the divisions that exist.

Pretty hilarious, considering that this is coming from a christian.
Where do you stand on baptism, Catholicism, Calvinism, Book of Mormon, the Old Law vs. New Law, etc etc etc etc?

The point being, the christian house never was able to keep itself together, so why do you act so shocked? Inner bickering is a trademark of religion (not just christianity).

 

[IamRedeemed]

Where does this come from and what mushroom are those that
are spouting it sitting under? ALL fornication is harmful both spiritually as well as physically. STD's are not passed between heterosexuals in marriage who have not defiled themselves outside the bounds of matrimony. Homosexuals can NEVER claim that!

Here is a brief overview of harm experienced by homosexuals just in regards to their improper use of their bodies. As well as harm from them to others, such as young boys. (Christians have NO excuse for improper use of their bodies, being they are to be the temple of the Holy Ghost, (which obviously cannot be the case as the Holy Spirit will not make a habitation among those who willfully sin no matter who they are)
I will NEVER understand why this is even a debate in the Christian area, it is absolutely ludicrous.) But I digress on that and continue with the overview.

Let me first start with an overview of sexual habits on average.

Do you know that the average homosexual according to one study has between 20 and 106 partners PER YEAR? The overall average is said to be 50-70 PER YEAR! No matter which statistics you prefer, we are talking 500-1000 partners in a LIFETIME! Heterosexuals by contrast have about 8 in their LIFETIME. (7 too many I agree, but hello?)

:tap: :tap: :tap: is this thing on?

NO harm? Uncountable young boys surely beg to differ.


A study conducted in a University in Pennsylvania found that 95% of boys sexually abused for the purpose of pornography and prostitution are molested by homosexual males. When I see this kind of thing, it reminds me of the fact that NAMBLA is even allowed to exist and is an OUTRAGE. The fact that NAMBLA even exists is a crime on the government's part imo. I have yet to see any homosexual in this forum speak out against it.

In another study 86% of convicted child molesters said they were "gay" or "bi-sexual". The International Lesbian and Gay assoc. had NAMBLA as a member for 10 years! Some historical facts from the wikipedia, that can be easily researched and confirmed are:
ILGA had passed a resolution in 1985 which stated that "young people have the right to sexual and social self-determination and that age of consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect." In spite of this apparent agreement with NAMBLA on the age of consent issue just nine years before, ILGA, by a vote of 214-30 expelled NAMBLA and two other groups (MARTIJN and Project Truth) in early 1994 because they were judged to be "groups whose predominant aim is to support or promote pedophilia." Although ILGA removed NAMBLA, the U.N. reversed its decision to grant ILGA special consultative status. Repeated attempts by ILGA to reacquire special status with the U.N. were finally successful in 2006 [14]. The group exercises consultative status with the European Commission.[citation needed]
Gregory King of the Human Rights Campaign later said that "NAMBLA is not a gay organization ... They are not part of our community and we thoroughly reject their efforts to insinuate that pedophilia is an issue related to gay and lesbian civil rights."[15] NAMBLA responded by claiming that "man/boy love is by definition homosexual," that "man/boy lovers are part of the gay movement and central to gay history and culture," and that "homosexuals denying that it is 'not gay' to be attracted to adolescent boys are just as ludicrous as heterosexuals saying it's 'not heterosexual' to be attracted to adolescent girls."[15]"


Let's move on to disease factors and the harm diseases cause, and let's do keep in mind that for instance in the case of Homosexual males accounting for over 50% of the entire population of infected persons with HIV/AIDS that the male homosexual population itself only counts for 1-1 1/2% of the entire population of all people and that homosexuals period only account for a mere 3% of the population, and the other 97% of the population should have to conform to their deviations and accept those deviations and all that comes with it as normal? That is ASIDE from the Biblical perspective. That ALONE is plain ludicrous!

Again I digress......:


The CDC (Center for Disease Control) reports that 25-73% of gay men who are infected with syphilis and 25-54% who are infected with gonorrhea are also infected with HIV/AIDS.

• Homosexual males account for over 50 percent of ALL infected persons with HIV/AIDS statistics reveal
  
• as well as account for 42% of all NEW infections in the US.
• Hepatitis A is occurring at a more frequent pace among homosexuals in the US, Canada and Australia
  

In FT. Lauderdale, Florida, the Cleveland Clinic found that due to anal intercourse, up to 55% of homosexual men with anorectal complaints have gonorrhea and that 80% of all patients with syphilis are homosexuals, up to 1/3 of homosexuals have active anorectal herpes simplex virus.

Another study found MSM in comparison to Hetero Men, accounted for the highest rate of new hepatitis cases. 78% of new cases were that of MSM's in New York, 68% in San Francisco, 56% in Toronto Canada.

 

[IamRedeemed]

I don't see the hilarity. Having disagreements regarding non-essentials, may be something the
Church has experienced always, but regarding salvific essentials, not so much.

But when people who claim they are Disciples of Christ adopt atheistic rhetoric and unequally
yoke themselves with unbelievers for political purposes that oppose God, I would have to say
that not only is there no hilarity to be found in it, but I would also say that there is a valid cause
for concern regarding their claim as Disciples of Christ.

Pretty hilarious, considering that this is coming from a christian.
Where do you stand on baptism, Catholicism, Calvinism, Book of Mormon, the Old Law vs. New Law, etc etc etc etc?

The point being, the christian house never was able to keep itself together, so why do you act so shocked? Inner bickering is a trademark of religion (not just christianity).

 

[Apollo Celestio]

In their defense, she should has presented the evidence. They could've held in their assumptions, conclusions, and inferences in though.

 

[onemessiah]

I don't see the hilarity. Having disagreements regarding non-essentials, may be something the
Church has experienced always, but regarding salvific essentials, not so much.

But when people who claim they are Disciples of Christ adopt atheistic rhetoric and unequally
yoke themselves with unbelievers for political purposes that oppose God, I would have to say
that not only is there no hilarity to be found in it, but I would also say that there is a valid cause
for concern regarding their claim as Disciples of Christ.

I'll respond to this first, since it is much shorter.


"Having disagreements regarding non-essentials, may be something the
Church has experienced always, but regarding salvific essentials, not so much."

Really? Is that why Catholics etc etc etc claim that if you don't adhere to their particular flavor of christianity, you go to hell? *Strawman* dismissed.

At any rate, the point was that it's hypocritical to call out certain members of your faith on something when your entire faith as a whole not only practices it, but encourages it by insisting that other christians don't know the bible as well as I do (naturally).

 

[onemessiah]

Before I respond to your other post, I'm just curious....
Your first link doesn't work....I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that you got this information from www.bibleartbooks.com?
Yeah, I'm SURE that they are an accredited authority on these matters and will present things in an unbiased, accurate manner. Just for laughs, I will go see what they have to say.

 

[onemessiah]

And the very first thing I notice is they are referencing material 30 years old. Imagine that....Can't wait to uncover some more golden nuggets such as that.

Anyway,
www.bibleartbooks.com/art_homosexual_cartoon.html is the link you were trying to post.

 

[onemessiah]

Google this. This is the source of some of these claims.
Corey, L. and Holmes, K. "Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men." New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38.

Tell me what's wrong with this picture.

 

[onemessiah]

In a 6-month long daily sexual diary, gay men were averaging somewhere around 110 different sex partners per year. Source: Corey, L. and Holmes, K.K., " Sexual transmission of Hepatitis A in homosexual men," New England Journal of Medicine, 1980; Vol. 302, pp. 435-38.

First of all, a sexual diary doesn't exactly qualify as scientific. Second of all, and what's even funnier, is this.....
If the "observation" lasted over a period of six months, how in the H--L can they tell you what gay men average in a YEAR?

This is a joke. Come back when you have something serious to offer. Until then....

 

[Nadiine]

I don't see the hilarity. Having disagreements regarding non-essentials, may be something the
Church has experienced always, but regarding salvific essentials, not so much.

But when people who claim they are Disciples of Christ adopt atheistic rhetoric and unequally
yoke themselves with unbelievers for political purposes that oppose God, I would have to say
that not only is there no hilarity to be found in it, but I would also say that there is a valid cause
for concern regarding their claim as Disciples of Christ.

---you must spread some reputation around before giving it to IAmRedeemed again ---

 

[onemessiah]

And another thing, this should have been your first red flag....

110 partners a year? WOW! I'm not a bad looking young man if I do say so myself, and I'm lucky to get A DATE, period, much less, well you know....

You mean to tell me, not only do they meet 110 gay men in a year (hard to believe, since gays make up such a small portion of the population), but they get it on with all of them?

 

[Nadiine]

Where does this come from and what mushroom are those that
are spouting it sitting under? ALL fornication is harmful both spiritually as well as physically. STD's are not passed between heterosexuals in marriage who have not defiled themselves outside the bounds of matrimony. Homosexuals can NEVER claim that!

Here is a brief overview of harm experienced by homosexuals just in regards to their improper use of their bodies. As well as harm from them to others, such as young boys. (Christians have NO excuse for improper use of their bodies, being they are to be the temple of the Holy Ghost, (which obviously cannot be the case as the Holy Spirit will not make a habitation among those who willfully sin no matter who they are)
I will NEVER understand why this is even a debate in the Christian area, it is absolutely ludicrous.) But I digress on that and continue with the overview.

Let me first start with an overview of sexual habits on average.

Do you know that the average homosexual according to one study has between 20 and 106 partners PER YEAR? The overall average is said to be 50-70 PER YEAR! No matter which statistics you prefer, we are talking 500-1000 partners in a LIFETIME! Heterosexuals by contrast have about 8 in their LIFETIME. (7 too many I agree, but hello?)

:tap: :tap: :tap: is this thing on?

NO harm? Uncountable young boys surely beg to differ.


A study conducted in a University in Pennsylvania found that 95% of boys sexually abused for the purpose of pornography and prostitution are molested by homosexual males. When I see this kind of thing, it reminds me of the fact that NAMBLA is even allowed to exist and is an OUTRAGE. The fact that NAMBLA even exists is a crime on the government's part imo. I have yet to see any homosexual in this forum speak out against it.

In another study 86% of convicted child molesters said they were "gay" or "bi-sexual". The International Lesbian and Gay assoc. had NAMBLA as a member for 10 years! Some historical facts from the wikipedia, that can be easily researched and confirmed are:
ILGA had passed a resolution in 1985 which stated that "young people have the right to sexual and social self-determination and that age of consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect." In spite of this apparent agreement with NAMBLA on the age of consent issue just nine years before, ILGA, by a vote of 214-30 expelled NAMBLA and two other groups (MARTIJN and Project Truth) in early 1994 because they were judged to be "groups whose predominant aim is to support or promote pedophilia." Although ILGA removed NAMBLA, the U.N. reversed its decision to grant ILGA special consultative status. Repeated attempts by ILGA to reacquire special status with the U.N. were finally successful in 2006 [14]. The group exercises consultative status with the European Commission.[citation needed]
Gregory King of the Human Rights Campaign later said that "NAMBLA is not a gay organization ... They are not part of our community and we thoroughly reject their efforts to insinuate that pedophilia is an issue related to gay and lesbian civil rights."[15] NAMBLA responded by claiming that "man/boy love is by definition homosexual," that "man/boy lovers are part of the gay movement and central to gay history and culture," and that "homosexuals denying that it is 'not gay' to be attracted to adolescent boys are just as ludicrous as heterosexuals saying it's 'not heterosexual' to be attracted to adolescent girls."[15]"


Let's move on to disease factors and the harm diseases cause, and let's do keep in mind that for instance in the case of Homosexual males accounting for over 50% of the entire population of infected persons with HIV/AIDS that the male homosexual population itself only counts for 1-1 1/2% of the entire population of all people and that homosexuals period only account for a mere 3% of the population, and the other 97% of the population should have to conform to their deviations and accept those deviations and all that comes with it as normal? That is ASIDE from the Biblical perspective. That ALONE is plain ludicrous!

Again I digress......:


The CDC (Center for Disease Control) reports that 25-73% of gay men who are infected with syphilis and 25-54% who are infected with gonorrhea are also infected with HIV/AIDS.

• Homosexual males account for over 50 percent of ALL infected persons with HIV/AIDS statistics reveal
  
• as well as account for 42% of all NEW infections in the US.
• Hepatitis A is occurring at a more frequent pace among homosexuals in the US, Canada and Australia
  

In FT. Lauderdale, Florida, the Cleveland Clinic found that due to anal intercourse, up to 55% of homosexual men with anorectal complaints have gonorrhea and that 80% of all patients with syphilis are homosexuals, up to 1/3 of homosexuals have active anorectal herpes simplex virus.

Another study found MSM in comparison to Hetero Men, accounted for the highest rate of new hepatitis cases. 78% of new cases were that of MSM's in New York, 68% in San Francisco, 56% in Toronto Canada.

wow, I didn't know alot of that.

I'd also add that even without these negative physical consequences there is harm done morally and spiritually when mankind collectively redefines right and wrong.
It's harmful becuz God commands that we obey His statutes for us becuz HE claims they are wrong.

We could use a parent/child analogy where if the child sees no 'harm' in doing what they want to do, that it automatically gives them the right to disobey their parents; as if they know better.

How would a parent feel when their child continually disobeyed their orders just becuz the child saw "no harm" in not doing those particular things? "I don't have to clean my room becuz it doesn't harm anyone if it's messy". "I don't have to eat my brussel sprouts becuz I hate them and it would make me unhappy to eat them".
"I won't stop screaming in the store becuz I'm angry and it doesn't hurt anyone when I scream"

It's wrong becuz it's disobedience. Disobedience is what it is and perceived & unpercieved harm are beside the point and irrelevant.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

To get that many partners, I imagine you'd "bar" hop or whatever..

 

[onemessiah]

perceived & unpercieved harm are beside the point and irrelevant.

Backpedaling, aren't we? Whatever happened to your beliefs in post 177? You were so vehement about those very percieved and unpercieved harms just a few short posts ago, when it suit your argument at the time.

 

[onemessiah]

In another study 86% of convicted child molesters said they were "gay" or "bi-sexual".

This VERY SAME SOURCE states....

"Although individuals who experience homosexual attractions and thoughts may not have chosen these tendencies...."

So what's it going to be? You ready to admit now that homosexuality is not a choice, therefore invalidating ANYTHING the bible has to say about the subject?
Or are you going to do the typical move and pick and choose what info is "correct"?

 

[IamRedeemed]

The wikipedia information which must be what you talking about which does include info from the 1970's
as I did say was revealing some pertinent facts from recent history. There may be some info you may find
at some of the links that may be older than others, not sure but I think you are mistaken about the items
I referred to, most of which came from the CDC anyhow, others were information from the Chicago Clinic
which may be have been found for you on another site as well another was from a study that took place at
the University of Pennsylvania, but again, MOST of what I posted came from the CDC and is pretty recent
information. My post contends that Homosexuality IS indeed harmful despite what those who live under a
mushroom say.

The url posted below and how it sounds is not relevant to the site contents.
in other words, it is not a site that mocks homosexuals, just fyi.

And the very first thing I notice is they are referencing material 30 years old. Imagine that....Can't wait to uncover some more golden nuggets such as that.

Anyway,
www.bibleartbooks.com/art_homosexual_cartoon.html is the link you were trying to post.

 

[Nadiine]

So what's it going to be? <snip>

Or are you going to do the typical move and pick and choose what info is "correct"?

What's wrong with that, people who agree with you who claim Christianity in these threads do that very thing with the Bible (pick and choose what's right and what isn't from the same source) and you're in support of it when they do it.

Why is it ok when they do it - becuz you agree with theirs?

 

[onemessiah]

The wikipedia information which must be what you talking about which does include info from the 1970's
as I did say was revealing some pertinent facts from recent history. There may be some info you may find
at some of the links that may be older than others, not sure but I think you are mistaken about the items
I referred to, most of which came from the CDC anyhow, others were information from the Chicago Clinic
which may be have been found for you on another site as well another was from a study that took place at
the University of Pennsylvania, but again, MOST of what I posted came from the CDC and is pretty recent
information. My post contends that Homosexuality IS indeed harmful despite what those who live under a
mushroom say.

The url posted below and how it sounds is not relevant to the site.
It is not a site that mocks homosexuals, just fyi.

No, I'm not mistaken about anything.
When I responded to your post, I looked at the code in your message to find what link you were trying to post. It is the one I listed. Simply visiting that link will confirm this, since the info is RIGHT THERE.

And FYI, articles thirty years old aren't "recent"....

Anyway, how about addressing my responses instead of squabbling over this.