Sin is Lawlessness

[1stcenturylady]

Are you sure of this? If so, why?

It says that Jesus led those captives "on high". According to you, Jesus is bringing unsaved people, sentenced to hell, into heaven? Into God's presence?

Not according to me. I don't know what it means.

 

[pescador]

Not according to me. I don't know what it means.

My error. jan001 said it in post #254.

 

[Jan001]

1) I have no idea what you're trying to say with all these disjointed, out-of-context verses.

They are not out of context. All verses apply to the same subject.

2) There were no verses (or chapters) in the early manuscripts.

I know this. And your point is?

3) Ain't cut-and-paste wonderful?

You personally actually know the NT Bible by heart and so you do not ever copy and paste the Scriptures into your posts? I need to copy and paste the Scriptures that I want to use to make my points because I do not have them memorized word for word.

Scripture is quite clear in what it says, which is why I prefer it to false doctrine created by having a preconceived idea then taking random verses (from seven different "books" in this case) to prove it.

"Scripture" is words in a Book. Scripture actually cannot "say" anything. It is each person who reads the words in this Book who determines for himself what the words mean. The key to learning the gospel of Jesus Christ is to find out exactly what the author meant for us to know.about Jesus Christ and His Church/Kingdom.

If you want to explain Scripture (in context), then how do you explain this paragraph from Paul's letter to the church in Thessalonica?

"For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [Whoops! According to you they had already risen] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."[/QUOTE]

A few "dead in Christ" did rise at the time of the first resurrection which happened when Jesus died on the cross. This was a Lazarus-type resurrection because these people did not receive resurrected, immortal bodies like Jesus Christ received when He rose from the dead. After Jesus rose from the dead these "risen" people appeared to other people in the city of Jerusalem. When they were finished with their appearances, their bodies returned to their tombs and their spirits returned to God. These people and all the people who followed after them into heaven since that time two thousand years ago are now reigning in heaven with Jesus right now. Revelation 20:4 The "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' resurrection and His second coming. It is not a literal one thousand years..

Matthew 27:50-54
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Paul's letter explains that at the end of time when Jesus reappears for His second coming, that all the people who had died and were still faithful to Jesus Christ at the time of their death, "the dead in Christ", will rise from the dead first before Jesus comes back to earth. It is at this time that they will all receive their resurrected, immortal bodies. IOW, their spirits will rejoin their bodies in their graves and reunited once again they will rise from the dead with their new resurrected, immortal bodies and then with Jesus, they will all come back to earth to meet His people who are still alive on earth.

As His people on earth rise up to meet them, they will receive their own resurrected, immortal bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?”
​

 

[Jan001]

If Jesus supposedly took those who had died and led them to heaven (as captives! then gave those captives gifts (rosaries?)), then what about all the people who have died since. Are they held as prisoners in Hades? Or was this, in your opinion, a one-time deal? See the answer above.

As I said above, Scripture, when read in context, makes sense. What you posted earlier makes no sense.

I believe the Word of God, not your words.

First of all, we all believe our own personal "interpretations" of the Word of God. However, some of our own personal interpretations may not actually be His true gospel.

Jesus did not take them to heaven as captives! They were captives in Hades until Jesus died on the cross. Because Adam had sinned, no human could enter into heaven. As soon as Jesus died on the cross, He accompanied all the people who were in the bosom of Abraham into heaven.

Jesus gave all these righteous people the "gift" of "heaven". Awesome gift!

Jesus' death on the cross redeemed us from Adam's sin and so Jesus personally re-opened the gate to heaven two thousand years ago and so it is permanently open. There is no purpose now for the bosom of Abraham and so it is no longer used by anyone.

 

[pescador]

You all can interpret whatever you want by lifting verses here and there from the Bible, then combining them to create some false tale of what it says.

I read the Bible as it was written, in context, and believe what it says. I'm done with this discussion, and leave you to flying captives who receive gifts from Jesus, then return to hell. The Bible is logical to those who understand it and illogical to those who clearly don't.

 

[Jan001]

I don't think those captives Jesus went to were righteous. It says they were from the time of Noah, which makes me think they were/are the sons of mankind offspring that mated with women.

He went to preach the gospel to them.

Peter is writing about the people at the time of Noah who repented of their evil while they were drowning. The one thief on the cross repented of his sins and he was even promised heaven that very day because he defended Jesus to the other thief. These people in the time of Noah also repented of their evil, but they were sent to prison/purgatory in Hades. They were there in the prison part of Hades because they had not yet been purified completely of their attachments to sin (they were still reaping what they had sown about two thousand years earlier). Matthew 5:21-26, 1 Corinthians 3:15

The people who were residing in the bosom of Abraham in Hades had already been purified of their attachments to sin. They were enjoying spiritual peace and spiritual refreshment. Luke 16:22-25

Jesus did not preach His gospel to the people who were in the hell part of Hades. It would do them no good.

Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” rsv
​

We all must be made perfect before we may enter into the presence of Jesus' Father.

Hebrews 12:23
and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, rsv

Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. rsv

1 Peter 1:14-16
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” rsv​

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. rsv​

The people who had died were all actually "captives" in Hades when Jesus first went to preach to them after He died on the cross. None of the people in Hades (hell, bosom of Abraham, prison/purgatory) were allowed to leave Hades before Jesus died on the cross. After Jesus preached the gospel to them in the bosom of Abraham and in the prison, He then freed them from Hades and He accompanied them to heaven. The people in the hell part of Hades remained there in hell.

Ephesians 4:8
Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” rsv

​

 

[pescador]

Peter is writing about the people at the time of Noah who repented of their evil while they were drowning. The one thief on the cross repented of his sins and he was even promised heaven that very day because he defended Jesus to the other thief. These people in the time of Noah also repented of their evil, but they were sent to prison/purgatory in Hades. They were there in the prison part of Hades because they had not yet been purified completely of their attachments to sin (they were still reaping what they had sown about two thousand years earlier). Matthew 5:21-26, 1 Corinthians 3:15

The people who were residing in the bosom of Abraham in Hades had already been purified of their attachments to sin. They were enjoying spiritual peace and spiritual refreshment. Luke 16:22-25

Jesus did not preach His gospel to the people who were in the hell part of Hades. It would do them no good.

Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” rsv
​

We all must be made perfect before we may enter into the presence of Jesus' Father.

Hebrews 12:23
and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, rsv

Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. rsv

1 Peter 1:14-16
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” rsv​

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. rsv​

The people who had died were all actually "captives" in Hades when Jesus first went to preach to them after He died on the cross. None of the people in Hades (hell, bosom of Abraham, prison/purgatory) were allowed to leave Hades before Jesus died on the cross. After Jesus preached the gospel to them in the bosom of Abraham and in the prison, He then freed them from Hades and He accompanied them to heaven. The people in the hell part of Hades remained there in hell.

Ephesians 4:8
Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” rsv

​

This is nonsense!

 

[Jan001]

You all can interpret whatever you want by lifting verses here and there from the Bible, then combining them to create some false tale of what it says.

I read the Bible as it was written, in context, and believe what it says. I'm done with this discussion, and leave you to flying captives who receive gifts from Jesus, then return to hell. The Bible is logical to those who understand it and illogical to those who clearly don't.

The people in hell do not ever get another chance! The people in hell are not the captives that Jesus released from Hades. The people that Jesus released from Hades do not ever return to Hades.

 

[Jan001]

This is nonsense!

It is nonsensical to you.

 

[1stcenturylady]

They are not out of context. All verses apply to the same subject.



I know this. And your point is?



You personally actually know the NT Bible by heart and so you do not ever copy and paste the Scriptures into your posts? I need to copy and paste the Scriptures that I want to use to make my points because I do not have them memorized word for word.



"Scripture" is words in a Book. Scripture actually cannot "say" anything. It is each person who reads the words in this Book who determines for himself what the words mean. The key to learning the gospel of Jesus Christ is to find out exactly what the author meant for us to know.about Jesus Christ and His Church/Kingdom.



"For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [Whoops! According to you they had already risen] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

A few "dead in Christ" did rise at the time of the first resurrection which happened when Jesus died on the cross. This was a Lazarus-type resurrection because these people did not receive resurrected, immortal bodies like Jesus Christ received when He rose from the dead. After Jesus rose from the dead these "risen" people appeared to other people in the city of Jerusalem. When they were finished with their appearances, their bodies returned to their tombs and their spirits returned to God. These people and all the people who followed after them into heaven since that time two thousand years ago are now reigning in heaven with Jesus right now. Revelation 20:4 The "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' resurrection and His second coming. It is not a literal one thousand years..

Matthew 27:50-54
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Paul's letter explains that at the end of time when Jesus reappears for His second coming, that all the people who had died and were still faithful to Jesus Christ at the time of their death, "the dead in Christ", will rise from the dead first before Jesus comes back to earth. It is at this time that they will all receive their resurrected, immortal bodies. IOW, their spirits will rejoin their bodies in their graves and reunited once again they will rise from the dead with their new resurrected, immortal bodies and then with Jesus, they will all come back to earth to meet His people who are still alive on earth.

As His people on earth rise up to meet them, they will receive their own resurrected, immortal bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?”
​

Jan, Isn't it great that we found these websites where we read scriptures, even if we have to read, cut and paste them over and over. Sooner or later, you've got them memorized! Just lately I found myself rattling off scriptures verbatim INCLUDING the address where they are found! I was amazed, seeing as my mother died of Alzheimer's, and I thought I was declining in short term memory! I'll be 70 next week.

 

[Jan001]

Jan, Isn't it great that we found these websites where we read scriptures, even if we have to read, cut and paste them over and over. Sooner or later, you've got them memorized! Just lately I found myself rattling off scriptures verbatim INCLUDING the address where they are found! I was amazed, seeing as my mother died of Alzheimer's, and I thought I was declining in short term memory! I'll be 70 next week.

You are a much better Scripture memorizer than I am! I've thought about memorizing Scriptures by book, chapter, and verse, but I have not yet made it a priority. Does reading a book on how to memorize Scriptures count? I did read one of those recently.

My mother has had Alzheimer's for six years so far and so I know what you went through with your mother. I have changed my diet to a Paleo diet, but with a few tweaks to it, hoping that by doing this diet, that I will not have to endure that horrible disease.

 

[pescador]

It is nonsensical to you.

And it makes sense to you. We will have to disagree on this one. Happy trails!

 

[1stcenturylady]

You are a much better Scripture memorizer than I am! I've thought about memorizing Scriptures by book, chapter, and verse, but I have not yet made it a priority. Does reading a book on how to memorize Scriptures count? I did read one of those recently.

My mother has had Alzheimer's for six years so far and so I know what you went through with your mother. I have changed my diet to a Paleo diet, but with a few tweaks to it, hoping that by doing this diet, that I will not have to endure that horrible disease.

Fill a shaker with Turmeric and Therapeutic Black Pepper (not table pepper). The Therapeutic Black Pepper makes the Turmeric 200 times more effective. It is for the brain.

I love spicy, so don't mind sprinkling it on everything.

 

[Jan001]

And it makes sense to you. We will have to disagree on this one. Happy trails!

Are you a fan of Roy and Dale?

 

[Jan001]

Fill a shaker with Turmeric and Therapeutic Black Pepper (not table pepper). The Therapeutic Black Pepper makes the Turmeric 200 times more effective. It is for the brain.

I love spicy, so don't mind sprinkling it on everything.

I had not heard of therapeutic black pepper. Is this the same as pepperine/piperine?
I do take Jarrow Curcumin Phytosome Meriva.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I had not heard of therapeutic black pepper. Is this the same as pepperine/piperine?
I do take Jarrow Curcumin Phytosome Meriva.

I looked that up and the description doesn't match.

Here is what I bought on ebay.

Piperine 95% Black Pepper Extract Powder 95% By HPLC Bioavailability Enhancer

 

[ToBeLoved]

You personally actually know the NT Bible by heart and so you do not ever copy and paste the Scriptures into your posts? I need to copy and paste the Scriptures that I want to use to make my points because I do not have them memorized word for word.



"

It is always best to post scripture. People will argue with a person but not usually God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jan, Isn't it great that we found these websites where we read scriptures, even if we have to read, cut and paste them over and over. Sooner or later, you've got them memorized! Just lately I found myself rattling off scriptures verbatim INCLUDING the address where they are found! I was amazed, seeing as my mother died of Alzheimer's, and I thought I was declining in short term memory! I'll be 70 next week.

Happy early birthday!

 

[pescador]

1stcenturylady and ToBeLoved, have you ever heard of having a private conversation? Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the posts's topic. Nobody cares what you bought on eBay or that one of you has a birthday.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1stcenturylady and ToBeLoved, have you ever heard of having a private conversation? Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the posts's topic. Nobody cares what you bought on eBay or that one of you has a birthday.

The body of Christ has to do with relationship. "If we walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

So getting back to the OP, sin is lawlessness.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!