Please don't try to figure it out. Let's just pass like two ships passing in the night. Someone can explain things to you in a simpler way, maybe.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Please don't try to figure it out. Let's just pass like two ships passing in the night. Someone can explain things to you in a simpler way, maybe.I have no idea what you're talking about. You have judged the church and now you're judging me. Neither one has any basis. I have no desire to start another conversation with you until your views on the body of Christ change dramatically.
I really can't recommend what is called church these days. As pointed out it has become a circle in which to impress others and usually with a false face.
I do not ignore Eph 2:10. I have it in proper perspective with other passages. So let's swap verses.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Rom 1:17
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:22
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom 5:1
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Rom 9:32
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:20
(For we walk by faith, not by sightII Cor 5:7
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Gal 3:11
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Eph 3:17
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:38
Now salvation is by faith and has nothing to do with works, especially of the law as James shows in James 2. The works James talks about are called fruit by Paul in Gal 5. Jesus said by their fruit you will know them. Jesus does not say by their works you will know them. The Christian is usually not even aware of their works/fruit.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? Mat 25
Paul calls his works of the law dung in Phil 3:8.
I am sure you previously posted the Christian will have works. And i agree with this except those works are fruit of the Christians new nature and often without knowledge of them/it. A tree or a branch bears fruit because it is what it does naturally. The tree does not work against nature to bear fruit.
bugkiller
I don't think most of us know people well enough to know. Maybe people we are fairly close to.
It's like so many preachers who have fallen to sexual and other sins and people don't believe it because they 'think' they know them although they've never met them in person or spent any time with them.
People think they know, but that is why people put on their Sunday face, to impress all the people that are going to judge them initially because they think they know.
That is why Christianity becomes people not being who or what they are, but trying to impress mankind, rather than God.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Good works are good fruits. Good deeds are good fruits.
The works of the "law" in Galatians 3:11, Romans 3:28, Rom 9:32, and Philippians 3:8-9 are the works of the Law of Moses.
Of course, a good Christian will do good works. But, what happens to the evil Christian who does evil works and does not repent of them before he dies?
Luke 6:46
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv
Jesus is not the Lord of people, Christian or not, who do not obey His commandments.
Hebrews 5:9What happens to all the disobedient sons of God if they do not repent before they die?
and being made perfect he (Jesus Christ) became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
Ephesians 5:5-7
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them, rsv
The disobedient sons of God receive His wrath, not His Son's salvation.
A person does not have faith in Jesus Christ unless he is obeying His commandments and loving his neighbor as himself.
James 2:15-17, 20-24
If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works (fruits), is dead..... 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works. .....24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. rsv
Your evil Christians maybe religious, but they are not Christians.I agree.
What happens to these evil Christians? They are not approved to inherit eternal life.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv
.
1 John 3:4
Sin, according to the Apostle John is lawlessness. Other religions teach people to be moral just as much as Christianity does. So what law is John referring to? Does being saved mean following the Law of Moses or is there another law that we are to adhere to?
Your evil Christians maybe religious, but they re not Christians.
bugkiller
Did he say all churches? I thought he meant the ones he has been to.That can't be said for all churches.
Your commentary and references do not match. I don't need the rest of your preaching to the choir or the pseudo Christian. ThanksGood works are good fruits. Good deeds are good fruits.
The works of the "law" in Galatians 3:11, Romans 3:28, Rom 9:32, and Philippians 3:8-9 are the works of the Law of Moses.
A person becomes a Christian (disciple/follower of Jesus Christ) through the baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19-20. A person cannot undo his baptism, but he can reject his faith/belief by his disobedience to God's commandments.
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv
Many Christians believe/obey only for a while. These Christians fall away from the faith by their disobedient conduct.
Jesus tells us this.
Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv
Matthew 13:20-22Many Christians do not produce good fruit. They either do not do the good works/deeds that the Father prepared for them to do and/or they do evil works/deeds. If they do not repent of their lack of good deeds/fruits/works and/or repent of their evil deeds/works/fruits before they die, they will will spend eternity in hell.
As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. rsv
Matthew 7:19
Every tree (person) that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. rsv
Matthew 7:21-24
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; rsv
James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. rsv
Luke 6:46
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv
It would have been better if these fallen away and unrepentant Christians had never become Christians. Their punishment will be worse in hell than the punishment in hell that is reserved for the never-believers.
2 Peter 2:15-21
Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Be′or, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a dumb ass spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved. 18 For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. rsv
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9Jesus Christ did not come to earth to die an excruciating death so that people can sin without any personal consequences. We will all reap what we sow.
....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv
Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (condemnation); but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. rsv
It's kind of cool to lift verses out of context, with absolutely no regard to whom they were written, to prove a personal doctrine which is false.
I'm not going to reply to the whole post, as I don't have the time. Let's start with Matthew 18:19-20: ""Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." This has absolutely nothing to do with baptism! More importantly a person does not become a Christian by being baptized, but by believing in Christ and verbally stating that Jesus is their lord.
You quote from Titus without mentioning what was written just before: "... but to those who are corrupted and do not believe..." It has nothing to do with Christians, but unbelievers!
Matthew and Luke wrote the words Jesus spoke in a parable. Was Jesus speaking to or about Christians? Of course not; there were none yet.
I'm not even going to reply to the rest of your long post as it makes absolutely no sense. You're selecting verses here and their to condemn your brothers and sisters in Christ who don't mean your standards. Thank God that we are all loved because we are all in Christ! If you want a doctrine to follow yourself and proclaim to others, try this...
"One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: "Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?" Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
Just curious, Jan referred to Matthew 28:19-20 which was about baptism, but it seemed you thought she was quoting Matthew 18:19-20 and referred to it as "having nothing to do with baptism". Dah! Wrong verses. I think you owe Jan an apology
It's kind of cool to lift verses out of context, with absolutely no regard to whom they were written, to prove a personal doctrine which is false.
I'm not going to reply to the whole post, as I don't have the time. Let's start with Matthew 18:19-20: ""Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." This has absolutely nothing to do with baptism! More importantly a person does not become a Christian by being baptized, but by believing in Christ and verbally stating that Jesus is their lord.
You quote from Titus without mentioning what was written just before: "... but to those who are corrupted and do not believe..." It has nothing to do with Christians, but unbelievers!
Read Matthew 28:19-20 instead of Matthew 18:19-20.
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant. The Baptism commanded by Jesus calls on the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and it is this baptism which makes a person a Christian. Baptism is what makes a person a disciple/follower of Jesus Christ. Circumcision was the entrance into the first/old covenant.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. niv
Baptism as commanded in Matthew 28:19-20 is what washes away our sins and makes us righteous/justified.
Acts 22:16Christians who claim to believe in Jesus Christ must prove their love for Him by obeying His commandments until they die. If they do this, they will then be approved to enter/inherit eternal life.
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed (baptized), you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. niv
Christians who claim to believe in Jesus Christ or claim to love Him and do not also obey His commandments do not in fact believe in Him and they do not in fact love Him and so these evil-doing Christians are called liars. These evil-doing Christians are worse than the people who have never believed in Jesus Christ.
John 14:15-16Jesus Christ is not the Lord of the Christians who do not obey His commandments.
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, rsv
1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv
1 Timothy 5:8
If any one (Christian) does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith (of Jesus Christ) and (he) is worse than an unbeliever.
Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test (of obedience to Jesus Christ's commandments until he dies) he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love (obey) him. rsv
A person does not love Jesus Christ unless he obeys His commandments.
There will be many devastated Christians on their judgment day when they find out that they have excluded themselves from heaven by their own unrepentant, wilful, and deliberate disobedience. They spurned, by disobeying Jesus' commandments, the saving Blood of His sacrifice which they had received when they first believed and were baptized. These unrepentant, disobedient Christians will receive vengeance from God instead of eternal life.
Matthew 24:9-13
Then they (evil-doers) will deliver you (my followers) up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many (of my followers) will fall away (from their faith in Me), and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many (of My followers) astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love (obedience to Me) will grow cold (will cease). 13 But he (my steadfast and faithful follower) who endures to the end (of his life in obedience to Me) will be saved (be approved to inherit eternal life).
Many people are fans of Jesus Christ. These fans want only what He can do for them. These people will not be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.
Hebrews 10:26-27, 29-30
For if we (Christians) sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a (Jesus Christ's) sacrifice (to cover) for (our) sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment (for us evil-doing Christians), and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries (all evil-doers).,,,How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God (by his own disobedience to God's commandments), and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was (previously) sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv
Few people are actually faithful followers of Jesus Christ. These faithful followers strive with their whole beings to imitate Jesus Christ in His obedience to His Father until they die. It is these few people who will be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.
Luke 13:23-27
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ niv
Read Matthew 28:19-20 instead of Matthew 18:19-20.
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant. The Baptism commanded by Jesus calls on the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and it is this baptism which makes a person a Christian. Baptism is what makes a person a disciple/follower of Jesus Christ. Circumcision was the entrance into the first/old covenant.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. niv
Baptism as commanded in Matthew 28:19-20 is what washes away our sins and makes us righteous/justified.
Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed (baptized), you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. niv
Christians who claim to believe in Jesus Christ must prove their love for Him by obeying His commandments until they die. If they do this, they will then be approved to enter/inherit eternal life.
Christians who claim to believe in Jesus Christ or claim to love Him and do not also obey His commandments do not in fact believe in Him and they do not in fact love Him and so these evil-doing Christians are called liars. These evil-doing Christians are worse than the people who have never believed in Jesus Christ.
John 14:15-16Jesus Christ is not the Lord of the Christians who do not obey His commandments.
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, rsv
1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv
1 Timothy 5:8
If any one (Christian) does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith (of Jesus Christ) and (he) is worse than an unbeliever.
Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test (of obedience to Jesus Christ's commandments until he dies) he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love (obey) him. rsv
A person does not love Jesus Christ unless he obeys His commandments.
There will be many devastated Christians on their judgment day when they find out that they have excluded themselves from heaven by their own unrepentant, wilful, and deliberate disobedience. They spurned, by disobeying Jesus' commandments, the saving Blood of His sacrifice which they had received when they first believed and were baptized. These unrepentant, disobedient Christians will receive vengeance from God instead of eternal life.
Matthew 24:9-13
Then they (evil-doers) will deliver you (my followers) up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many (of my followers) will fall away (from their faith in Me), and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many (of My followers) astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love (obedience to Me) will grow cold (will cease). 13 But he (my steadfast and faithful follower) who endures to the end (of his life in obedience to Me) will be saved (be approved to inherit eternal life).
Many people are fans of Jesus Christ. These fans want only what He can do for them. These people will not be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.
Hebrews 10:26-27, 29-30
For if we (Christians) sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a (Jesus Christ's) sacrifice (to cover) for (our) sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment (for us evil-doing Christians), and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries (all evil-doers).,,,How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God (by his own disobedience to God's commandments), and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was (previously) sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv
Few people are actually faithful followers of Jesus Christ. These faithful followers strive with their whole beings to imitate Jesus Christ in His obedience to His Father until they die. It is these few people who will be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.
Luke 13:23-27
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ niv
It is astonishing how you can make up your own erroneous doctrine by taking verses from here and there, completely out of context, and expect others to accept it.
Paul clearly states that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Apparently that's not enough for you. Not only do you require baptism, which is solely a public demonstration of one's dying to their old way of life and being reborn, but then you, on your own authority, condemn Christians that don't meet your unscriptural standards. Anyone who says, "There will be many devastated Christians on their judgment day when they find out that they have excluded themselves from heaven by their own unrepentant, wilful, and deliberate disobedience. They spurned, by disobeying Jesus' commandments, the saving Blood of His sacrifice which they had received when they first believed and were baptized. These unrepentant, disobedient Christians will receive vengeance from God instead of eternal life" had better be very, very careful. If you think that self-righteously criticizing and condemning people in the body of Christ will find favor with God, who chose them and loves them, you are seriously mistaken!
When you say, "Few people are actually faithful followers of Jesus Christ. These faithful followers strive with their whole beings to imitate Jesus Christ in His obedience to His Father until they die. It is these few people who will be approved to inherit/enter eternal life" you are no doubt referring to yourself and others like you and condemning believing Christians. Who do you think you are, God??
You are putting Christians who are saved, forgiven, and loved by God back under the Old Covenant. You're into justification by works and the harsh law that condemns all those who violate it, yet you're forgetting to love your neighbor. You are denying the salvation that comes through faith in Jesus Christ! May God have mercy on your soul!
Paul clearly states that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Apparently that's not enough for you.
When you say, "Few people are actually faithful followers of Jesus Christ. These faithful followers strive with their whole beings to imitate Jesus Christ in His obedience to His Father until they die. It is these few people who will be approved to inherit/enter eternal life" you are no doubt referring to yourself and others like you and condemning believing Christians. Who do you think you are, God??
I like your post here, Jan. I would just like to add my take on "baptism." We don't bury the living, but the dead. That is a conscious choice due to repentance. We first repent of our sin, turning away from sin, and toward Christ. It is blood that actually washes away our sin, then we are dead to sin, and symbolize that death through being buried with Christ in baptism.
Acts 2:38 "38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Repentance must come first. It is why John the Baptist came first preaching repentance from sin, and baptizing people in water, after they repented. What we do with water is John's baptism, foreshadowing Christ's baptism of the fire of the Holy Spirit
Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Therefore, it is repentance from sin toward Christ that saves causing the filling of the Holy Spirit. Once we are dead to sin do we become baptizable. We must obey Christ and become baptized.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?