signs of a true apostle

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Then you are saying by this that the gifts actually did cease?

The gifts were in operation = the pagan world turned to Christ. Gifts ceased = the Church turned pagan again. Revivals = whole communities and regions turned to Christ. Revivals died away = communities turned back to paganism. Modern churches - no sign of revival = country turning neo-pagan. Whatever we believe about cessationism or continuance, this is the reality that we are living in right now.

 

[Biblicist]

As to why is not really worth a debate.

The point which you I agree on are that "Cease = Ends = Declined" just as was said by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

We are agreed.

As you are seemingly dismissing an aspect of Church life and history that has been a central issue of concern for the Church for many centuries, let along decades, then we can deduce that you are in fact aware that the decay of the Church from at least the 4th century is a valid argument.

You may as well try and tell someone who has a grievously sick child, 'Oh well, it doesn't matter why they are so sick, they're just sick".

 

[Andrew Jeremiah]

2 Corinthians 12:12
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Many people are claiming to be an apostle today, where are their signs, wonders and mighty works that are documented by independent sources??

Let me tell you...Paul was speaking of himself. Those were the signs of his commission.

Paul taught us something about the Body of Christ, too. We are not all cookie-cutter Christians. Study the parts (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher) which is the hand of God.
Then study the spiritual gifts.
Then reason that we do not all have the same ministry/call/body-part, and we do not all have the same gift or gifts, one may have one gift, another has six, and another has four, and another has four also but four different spiritual gift(s). It just falls on the good pleasure of God's Will and where He baptizes you into the Body of Christ. Ya falla?

Study Paul's ministry and discern his gift-ministry/call/body-part (he might have more than one), and then see if you can discern his spiritual gifts. An apostle today may not have raised the dead (Pete also) but they are commissioned to do something for his/her Lord and the spiritual gifts assist in accomplishing that call/function of God. Plus there are the "pounds."
And the talents.
And here too, not every believer has the same talent but they will all have only one pound.
Right?
Maybe there is more to what the Holy Spirit said in Acts 13:2. Maybe there was someone who was there in the Antioch church that was at Corinth when he wrote and knew the person would be there with the epistle's/letter's arrival? Maybe part of the prophecy was exactly as he described in his Corinthian letter for benefit of someone who would read the letter or know its contents - Paul did write to the CHURCH at Corinth, so this was a letter that was read/shared with/to the brethren.

Then we date the letter. Etc. This should be fun.

 

[Biblicist]

They didn't cease. They gradually declined, and the declining happened more quickly after Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and made all the pagans join the Christian churches, and had specific building constructed for Christian worship. . .

Oscar, you will undoubtedly find the following brief portion of a subscription journal article that I have just come across to be of interest which speaks of a Pentecostal and/or Charismatic movement in Finland which commenced sometime in the late 1790's.

We also have the French Camisards who were apparently either Pentecostals and/or Charismatics who resided in Southern France about a century earlier. link Then there are the British Charismatics (The Irvingites) of the 1830's and onwards who also spoke in tongues.

As you would be well aware, for many of us, one of the ongoing frustrations is to be able source available historical material from before the 1900's and to be able to source material that is written in English. With the following article on the Finish 'Charismatics', I can probably only get away with quoting a small amount.

The Call of Charisma: Charismatic Phenomena during the 18th and 19th Centuries in Finland
Author: Jouko Ruohomäki

Journal of the European Pentecostal Theological Association, pp.26-41

Pg.33
Charismatism in Northern Savo and Northern Karelia

Wiklund's revival might have a small genetic connection to the Northern Savo and Northern Karelia revival in the eastern part of Finland. This connection can be traced through a man called Juhana Puustijarvi whose home was in Ylitornio. Later he moved to northern Savonia, and became a leader of a new revival, which began with tongues, prophecy and visions, in the Savojarvi village in 1796. This revival reached popularity and started to spread rapidly as a young peasant named Paavo Ruotsalainen became the leader as a matter of course for the movement; this took place in 1808 or 1809. During the same period, Finland was separated from the kingdom of Sweden and became a part of the Russian empire. However in Finland, pietistic revival went on among the peasants, but Ruotsalainen failed to accept the leadership of Puustijarvi. In a meeting of Pietists in 1809 Paavo proclaimed: 'If we do not quickly return to the Lord, then the teaching of Lustig (Juhana Puustijarvi) will take us to hell/14 Paavo's speech was effective. Many of his listeners fell down to the floor and began to speak in tongues and preach in the Spirit. This phenomenon resembled the Pentecostal incident in Savojarvi in 1796. Apparently, the incident had a great impact on Ruotsalainen, at the end of the meeting he concluded: 'the hand of the Lord is not yet shortened.'15 For Ruotsalainen this was equivalent to an endorsement from the Holy Spirit. During the leadership of Paavo Ruotsalainen charismatic phenomena such as tongues speaking, prophesying and trance preaching took place again and again in various places among Pietist gatherings. He was a capable leader, and was able to control excesses in tongue speaking, once he warned them saying: 'Give honor to God, but shame to men.' . . . . . .

ISSN: 1812-4461 (Print) 2224-7963 (Online) Journal homepage: http://www.tandfonline.com/loi/yjpe20

To cite this article: Jouko Ruohomäki (2009) The Call of Charisma: Charismatic Phenomena during the 18th and 19th Centuries in Finland, Journal of the European Pentecostal Theological Association, 29:1, 26-41, DOI: 10.1179/jep.2009.29.1.004
To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1179/jep.2009.29.1.004​

 

[Major1]

As you are seemingly dismissing an aspect of Church life and history that has been a central issue of concern for the Church for many centuries, let along decades, then we can deduce that you are in fact aware that the decay of the Church from at least the 4th century is a valid argument.

You may as well try and tell someone who has a grievously sick child, 'Oh well, it doesn't matter why they are so sick, they're just sick".

We/they would be sick because of sin.

 

[Major1]

My view of the "perfect" that if the "perfect" was the completed canon of Scripture, or the mature Church, then these two should be replacing the extraordinary signs and wonders that amazed the pagans and made thousands upon thousands turn to Christ and actually Christianised the Roman Empire. The problem is, that although we have the "perfect" Scriptures and the "mature" Church we are seeing none of that. What we are seeing are self-indulgent churches behaving like Christian "clubs" and the community around them getting more and more godless, heartless, criminal, homosexual, involved in the occult, muslim mosques and Hindu temples, and false cults on the rise. With the "perfect" Scriptures and the "mature" Church that has supposed to have replaced the signs and wonders, the opposite is happening than what happened in the First Century. Instead of Christianizing our society, our society is being quickly paganised instead. It seems that all the outcomes of the First Century are today being reversed, and we have the "perfect" Scriptures and the "mature" Church. How can this be?

Oscar, I am not of the opinion that thousands upon thousands were Christianized in the Roman Empire. They were IMO ROMANIZED but not Christianized and there is a huge difference between the two.

Even though the Bible was canonized it was not printed for the masses until the 1500's which of course led to the Protestant Reformation.

I do not believe that the Church was to have replaced signs and wonders but the completed Word of God did.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Thankyou kindly for that link.

Sometime last year I came across a subscription article/thesis [which means that I cannot re-publish it] that was produced in the late 1990's where the researcher had taken a look into the views of the early churchmen; what surprised me, was that according to his research he did not come across any comments from the men of this period who supported, or who even knew about, the view that the perfect somehow refers to the Canon of Scripture. Others have certainly said much the same (including A.C. Thiselton, 2000) but his was the most comprehensive. This motivated me to take things a bit further.

In my travels through the thirteen Bible College libraries that I have access to within my State, I did not come across any support for the Canon viewpoint until I opened the 171st commentary, even then, it was only an unknown small commentary that was published back in 1964 - it's the only copy that I have found within all the University/College libraries so far.

My goal was to produce a free PDF document so that others could benefit from my research and analysis of the material and so far, from the 1700's up until now, I have produced summaries that support the historical viewpoint that the perfect refers to time after the return of Christ from 228 commentators, who are from all forms of ecclesiastical backgrounds. As my work may turn into a Master's thesis it means that I cannot release the material until I decide which way to go.

So far, I have found seven commentators who say that the perfect refers directly to the Canon and another eight who say that it refers to the time when the Church matured without any direct reference to 1 Cor 13:8-12.

I think in modern times it was made popular by a book called Counterfeit Miracles by Warfield.

The book,
2000 Years Of Charismatic Christianity:
quotes church fathers including Jerome around 400 AD that Spiritual Gifts were active in the church.

Your Welcome,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yes . . . yes . . . I would like to oblige but at this stage he has only allowed me to have a copy providing that I do not pass it on to others, which by the way is a bit of a shame as Master's and Doctoral thesis' can be quite informative and detailed, as undoubtedly was the case with your own Masters thesis.

Mind you, when I explained to this professor what I was doing, this was about the 8th or 10th University/College that I had visited, I was absolutely stunned when he said something along the lines of "Oh, I did my Master's thesis on 1 Cor 13:10, here it is here on the shelf". By the time that we both met, I was becoming a bit frustrated as I only had maybe four or so commentaries out of maybe 200 that referred to the Canon or maturity viewpoint, so to be able to even hold in my hands a detailed analysis of a viewpoint that I disagree with was quite a moment for me.

For what its worth, I have pasted a few lines of his Thesis into Google search but sadly no one has posted a copy of it on the web!

What is his name and school, maybe he has published articles or a blog through it.

I forget what databases online are for thesis.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am a little puzzled because some churches where I see tongues today, those groups seem so immature as Christians. Why is not the fruit of the Spirit emphasized more in those groups that I have encountered?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscar, I am not of the opinion that thousands upon thousands were Christianized in the Roman Empire. They were IMO ROMANIZED but not Christianized and there is a huge difference between the two.

Even though the Bible was canonized it was not printed for the masses until the 1500's which of course led to the Protestant Reformation.

I do not believe that the Church was to have replaced signs and wonders but the completed Word of God did.

I'll take your word for paragraph 1. Okay with paragraph 2. My point about paragraph 3 is that the completed Word of God should be having the same results in the community around the church as the First Century signs and wonders did - if the Word was the replacement. But as you know, even though there are churches on each corner of many of our cities, and some are mega-churches, the secular community remains unmoved and uncaring. There is something missing somewhere, whatever that is.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscar, I am not of the opinion that thousands upon thousands were Christianized in the Roman Empire. They were IMO ROMANIZED but not Christianized and there is a huge difference between the two.

Even though the Bible was canonized it was not printed for the masses until the 1500's which of course led to the Protestant Reformation.

I do not believe that the Church was to have replaced signs and wonders but the completed Word of God did.

I think it was in one of our earlier exchanges that it was mentioned that Augustine had supported cessationism. This is quite true in his earlier writings, but here is a quote from his City of God, written in later life:

"Once I realized how many miracles were occurring in our own day and which were so like the miracles of old and also how wrong it would be to allow the memory of these marvels of divine power to perish from among our people. It is only two years ago that the keeping of records was begun here in Hippo, and already, at this writing, we have nearly seventy attested miracles. (22.8; also see his Retractions 1.13.7, also 1.14.5).

I just thought I'd mention it as a point of interest.

 

[Biblicist]

I am a little puzzled because some churches where I see tongues today, those groups seem so immature as Christians. Why is not the fruit of the Spirit emphasized more in those groups that I have encountered?

What is his name and school, maybe he has published articles or a blog through it.

I forget what databases online are for thesis.

Before I copied his thesis (for research purposes only) I had to ask his permission to do so and also if I had his permission to quote his material as a part of a possible thesis which he also approved.

Unfortunately, he has not submitted his thesis to a site such as EThoS and I seriously doubt if he will choose to do so in the future. As I have mentioned previously, it has been difficult to source scholarly published material that supports the recent Canon viewpoint regarding 1 Cor 13:10, so to be able to access his detailed paper is much appreciated on my part.

Over the weekend I decided not to undertake a thesis on 1 Cor 13:10 regarding to teleion as it has become a bit of a dead issue where it seems that only a handful of scholars still go against the historical understanding of to teleion as referring to anything but the time after the return of the Lord.

 

[Biblicist]

I am a little puzzled because some churches where I see tongues today, those groups seem so immature as Christians. Why is not the fruit of the Spirit emphasized more in those groups that I have encountered?

Even though there are certainly immature Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations out there, the same goes for those who are cessationist as well. On the flip-side, it can be easy for many Believers who have only known Pentecostal ministry and worship to fall for the trap of incorrectly presuming that all cessationists support liberalism, homosexuality etc.

If we can rely on the accuracy of the many surveys that state (claim?) that the majority of those who refer to themselves as being Evangelical, that these same people are either Pentecostal, Charismatic or who are open to Full Gospel ministry, then this means that it can be very hard to make any substantial generalisations, though we certainly deserve to be criticised at times.

 

[Biblicist]

I think in modern times it was made popular by a book called Counterfeit Miracles by Warfield.

The book,
2000 Years Of Charismatic Christianity:
quotes church fathers including Jerome around 400 AD that Spiritual Gifts were active in the church.

Your Welcome,
Daniel

Undoubtedly Warfield's book Counterfeit Miracles (1918) popularised the the Canon understanding that 1 Cor 13:10 referred to the Canon, but as I discovered, there were two others who raised the possibility before him, being in 1872 and 1916.

Warfield is an interesting individual, in that today, many Evangelicals would refer to him as being a humanist particularly with his support of Evolutionary theory. What many people do not realise is that Warfield was trying to counter the challenge that the scholars and leaders of the Roman Catholic denomination had been successfully throwing at them where they said "Show us your miracles and we will show you ours!" This was a very effective challenge as those Denominations that adhered to the Westminister Confession had essentially ruled out the possibility that God and the Holy Spirit still worked the same today as he did in the first few centuries. This charge was also effective against the old-school Calvinists who had essentially replaced the Power of the Holy Spirit with that of human reasoning.

What Warfield attempted to point out was that most of the claims of healings etc that came from within the Roman Catholic system were false - or at least that was his claim.

Many would not realise that when Warfield was on his honeymoon, he and his wife encountered a massive thunderstorm which sadly shattered his new brides emotional well-being; apparently she became somewhat of an invalid so he spent the rest of his life lovingly caring for her needs while lecturing and writing commentaries. So Warfields theology has undoubtedly been based not entirely on theology but on the inability of his wife to regain her health.

 

[Major1]

I think it was in one of our earlier exchanges that it was mentioned that Augustine had supported cessationism. This is quite true in his earlier writings, but here is a quote from his City of God, written in later life:

"Once I realized how many miracles were occurring in our own day and which were so like the miracles of old and also how wrong it would be to allow the memory of these marvels of divine power to perish from among our people. It is only two years ago that the keeping of records was begun here in Hippo, and already, at this writing, we have nearly seventy attested miracles. (22.8; also see his Retractions 1.13.7, also 1.14.5).

I just thought I'd mention it as a point of interest.

Of course, as I have said before, the word "miracle" is very suggestive word and depends entirely upon a persons perspective.

What you consider a "miracle" I may consider a natural occurrence.

Oscar, I am not trying to dissuade of your beliefs in any way what so ever. But I really think that you understand just as I do that Religion is bound to have mistaken some non-miracles for miracles. Miracles must have been mistaken for non-miracles too.

People see what they want to see, and then the more they tell others what they saw, the more suspicious the story becomes.

Think about ALIANS. If you talk with people, everyone has their own story of seeing an Alien. But every single time, when it come time to show the proof, there never is any.

BIGFOOT. Every body believes that there are these human/animals living in the woods.
But where is the proof? Not one single one has ever been produced. No bones, no graves no skeletons. Does that mean they eat their dead, body, blood and bones????

Humans tend to tell stories to make themselves look more important than others. It is just what we do.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Of course, as I have said before, the word "miracle" is very suggestive word and depends entirely upon a persons perspective.

What you consider a "miracle" I may consider a natural occurrence.

Oscar, I am not trying to dissuade of your beliefs in any way what so ever. But I really think that you understand just as I do that Religion is bound to have mistaken some non-miracles for miracles. Miracles must have been mistaken for non-miracles too.

People see what they want to see, and then the more they tell others what they saw, the more suspicious the story becomes.

Think about ALIANS. If you talk with people, everyone has their own story of seeing an Alien. But every single time, when it come time to show the proof, there never is any.

BIGFOOT. Every body believes that there are these human/animals living in the woods.
But where is the proof? Not one single one has ever been produced. No bones, no graves no skeletons. Does that mean they eat their dead, body, blood and bones????

Humans tend to tell stories to make themselves look more important than others. It is just what we do.

I know you are not trying to dissuade me from my beliefs. I included the quote from Augustine just to give you a prod to promote further discussion. I agree with what you are saying about people attributing natural phenomena to the miraculous. This is seen in the number of folks who claim supernatural healing of headaches and bad backs, when those tend to resolve themselves naturally, and with the help of pain killers. But I wouldn't say that about Augustine, because in his earlier years he was fairly adamant that the day of miracles had ceased, and this was evident in his earlier writings. But the occurrence of miraculous events in the churches under his jurisdiction in his later ministry at Hippo, caused him to realise that the miracles that happened in the First Century were happening in his churches. I don't think he was mistaken about that. Unfortunately, the Church held to his earlier cessationist writings and ignored his later ones. It is interesting to note that cessationist teaching did not exist in the Church before around 1870. For sure, the teaching was that the supernatural gifts did decline and were not longer part of the Church's central ministry, but the reasons were fairly vague and supposed that they declined after the Apostolic Age; but they did not give substantive reasons for it. Cessationist teaching that the gifts ceased because of the "mature Church" or the adoption of the Biblical canon, came into being in the late 1870s.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Before I copied his thesis (for research purposes only) I had to ask his permission to do so and also if I had his permission to quote his material as a part of a possible thesis which he also approved.

Unfortunately, he has not submitted his thesis to a site such as EThoS and I seriously doubt if he will choose to do so in the future. As I have mentioned previously, it has been difficult to source scholarly published material that supports the recent Canon viewpoint regarding 1 Cor 13:10, so to be able to access his detailed paper is much appreciated on my part.

Over the weekend I decided not to undertake a thesis on 1 Cor 13:10 regarding to teleion as it has become a bit of a dead issue where it seems that only a handful of scholars still go against the historical understanding of to teleion as referring to anything but the time after the return of the Lord.

I would like to contact him personally. I notice the following online related to history of the
1600’s.

Owen, John

‘The Original, Duration, Use and End of Extraordinary Spiritual Gifts’ in A Discourse of Spiritual Gifts in Works, vol. 4 The works of John Owen

pp. 248-9 & 282 of Commentary on Heb. 2:4
An exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews
An exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews

Cessationism

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Even though there are certainly immature Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations out there, the same goes for those who are cessationist as well. On the flip-side, it can be easy for many Believers who have only known Pentecostal ministry and worship to fall for the trap of incorrectly presuming that all cessationists support liberalism, homosexuality etc.

If we can rely on the accuracy of the many surveys that state (claim?) that the majority of those who refer to themselves as being Evangelical, that these same people are either Pentecostal, Charismatic or who are open to Full Gospel ministry, then this means that it can be very hard to make any substantial generalisations, though we certainly deserve to be criticised at times.

I have never meet a cessationist that supports liberalism or homosexuality.
Who are they? Just curious.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Undoubtedly Warfield's book Counterfeit Miracles (1918) popularised the the Canon understanding that 1 Cor 13:10 referred to the Canon, but as I discovered, there were two others who raised the possibility before him, being in 1872 and 1916.

Warfield is an interesting individual, in that today, many Evangelicals would refer to him as being a humanist particularly with his support of Evolutionary theory. What many people do not realise is that Warfield was trying to counter the challenge that the scholars and leaders of the Roman Catholic denomination had been successfully throwing at them where they said "Show us your miracles and we will show you ours!" This was a very effective challenge as those Denominations that adhered to the Westminister Confession had essentially ruled out the possibility that God and the Holy Spirit still worked the same today as he did in the first few centuries. This charge was also effective against the old-school Calvinists who had essentially replaced the Power of the Holy Spirit with that of human reasoning.

What Warfield attempted to point out was that most of the claims of healings etc that came from within the Roman Catholic system were false - or at least that was his claim.

Many would not realise that when Warfield was on his honeymoon, he and his wife encountered a massive thunderstorm which sadly shattered his new brides emotional well-being; apparently she became somewhat of an invalid so he spent the rest of his life lovingly caring for her needs while lecturing and writing commentaries. So Warfields theology has undoubtedly been based not entirely on theology but on the inability of his wife to regain her health.

Thais interesting. I wonder if He had to deal with Christian Science, LDS-Mormons or other Healing Movements?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Undoubtedly Warfield's book Counterfeit Miracles (1918) popularised the the Canon understanding that 1 Cor 13:10 referred to the Canon, but as I discovered, there were two others who raised the possibility before him, being in 1872 and 1916.

Warfield is an interesting individual, in that today, many Evangelicals would refer to him as being a humanist particularly with his support of Evolutionary theory. What many people do not realise is that Warfield was trying to counter the challenge that the scholars and leaders of the Roman Catholic denomination had been successfully throwing at them where they said "Show us your miracles and we will show you ours!" This was a very effective challenge as those Denominations that adhered to the Westminister Confession had essentially ruled out the possibility that God and the Holy Spirit still worked the same today as he did in the first few centuries. This charge was also effective against the old-school Calvinists who had essentially replaced the Power of the Holy Spirit with that of human reasoning.

What Warfield attempted to point out was that most of the claims of healings etc that came from within the Roman Catholic system were false - or at least that was his claim.

Many would not realise that when Warfield was on his honeymoon, he and his wife encountered a massive thunderstorm which sadly shattered his new brides emotional well-being; apparently she became somewhat of an invalid so he spent the rest of his life lovingly caring for her needs while lecturing and writing commentaries. So Warfields theology has undoubtedly been based not entirely on theology but on the inability of his wife to regain her health.

Other possible leads from an LDS source, One need only look into the critics of these groups.

"But in the centuries following, prophecy and tongues were found in groups such as the Waldenses in the 1100’s, the Franciscans in the 1200’s, the Anabaptists in the 1500’s, the Quakers in the 1600’s, the Methodists of England in the 1700’s, the Second Great Awakening in the 1800’s, and the Pentecostal Revival in the U.S. in the 1900’s." Spiritual Gifts: The Cessationist Controversy from an LDS Perspective