signs of a true apostle

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thankyou kindly for that link.

Sometime last year I came across a subscription article/thesis [which means that I cannot re-publish it] that was produced in the late 1990's where the researcher had taken a look into the views of the early churchmen; what surprised me, was that according to his research he did not come across any comments from the men of this period who supported, or who even knew about, the view that the perfect somehow refers to the Canon of Scripture. Others have certainly said much the same (including A.C. Thiselton, 2000) but his was the most comprehensive. This motivated me to take things a bit further.

In my travels through the thirteen Bible College libraries that I have access to within my State, I did not come across any support for the Canon viewpoint until I opened the 171st commentary, even then, it was only an unknown small commentary that was published back in 1964 - it's the only copy that I have found within all the University/College libraries so far.

My goal was to produce a free PDF document so that others could benefit from my research and analysis of the material and so far, from the 1700's up until now, I have produced summaries that support the historical viewpoint that the perfect refers to time after the return of Christ from 228 commentators, who are from all forms of ecclesiastical backgrounds. As my work may turn into a Master's thesis it means that I cannot release the material until I decide which way to go.

So far, I have found seven commentators who say that the perfect refers directly to the Canon and another eight who say that it refers to the time when the Church matured without any direct reference to 1 Cor 13:8-12.

It seems ironic that eight commentators say that the gifts declined when the Church "matured", when all the contemporary Church fathers said that the gifts declined because the church backslid, lost its holiness, and was influenced by pagan beliefs. If that is what they call maturity, I wonder what planet they are on and whether they bothered to research what the early Church fathers actually said about the progress of the Church after the 4th Century.

 

[Biblicist]

Would it be safe to say the unbelievers here were Jews? God is always reaching for them His chosen people. Even though they were blinded? I always wondered... hmmm

As to the makeup of Corinth it was highly cosmopolitan but it had a high percentage of Latin speaking citizens. By the time Paul had reached Corinth, it had become the third largest city in the Roman world after Rome and Alexandria.

As Paul addressed both of his Epistles beyond just that of the city of Corinth, we can deduce from this that he was also addressing a wide range of cultures and languages, and not just those who were either residents or visitors in Corinth and its surrounding towns and villages.

In First Corinthians he addresses this letter to;

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere . . .​

In his second Letter he narrows this to;

To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia: . . .​

You will be able to see from the Map that Corinth, which was the Capital of the Roman Province of Achaia, which comprises all of southern Greece and that it was situated on an Isthmus between the Ionian Sea which led to Italy and the Aegean which led to the Eastern Roman Empire. A couple of centuries before Paul's time they had built a paved boatway (The Diolkis) between these two seas as travel along the Southern edge of Achaia (Greece) was far too dangerous. This means that the vast majority of sea travelers would have at least traveled through Corinth's two harbour suburbs, being Lechaion on the North West side and Cenchrea and Isthmia on the Aegean coast. Undoubtedly quite a few would have chosen to travel by land between these two harbour cities/towns which meant that they would have stayed in the city of Corinth.

As to the Jewish population in Corinth, it could have been anywhere from maybe 2 to 5 percent but the predominant languages would have been Latin, which was the language of Roman government and its citizens and Greek which would have been used for foreign commerce.

Hope this helps to answer your question.

 

[lamb7]

As to the makeup of Corinth it was highly cosmopolitan but it had a high percentage of Latin speaking citizens. By the time Paul had reached Corinth, it had become the third largest city in the Roman world after Rome and Alexandria.

As Paul addressed both of his Epistles beyond just that of the city of Corinth, we can deduce from this that he was also addressing a wide range of cultures and languages, and not just those who were either residents or visitors in Corinth and its surrounding towns and villages.

In First Corinthians he addresses this letter to;

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere . . .​

In his second Letter he narrows this to;

To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia: . . .​

You will be able to see from the Map that Corinth, which was the Capital of the Roman Province of Achaia, which comprises all of southern Greece and that it was situated on an Isthmus between the Ionian Sea which led to Italy and the Aegean which led to the Eastern Roman Empire. A couple of centuries before Paul's time they had built a paved boatway (The Diolkis) between these two seas as travel along the Southern edge of Achaia (Greece) was far too dangerous. This means that the vast majority of sea travelers would have at least traveled through Corinth's two harbour suburbs, being Lechaion on the North West side and Cenchrea and Isthmia on the Aegean coast. Undoubtedly quite a few would have chosen to travel by land between these two harbour cities/towns which meant that they would have stayed in the city of Corinth.

As to the Jewish population in Corinth, it could have been anywhere from maybe 2 to 5 percent but the predominant languages would have been Latin, which was the language of Roman government and its citizens and Greek which would have been used for foreign commerce.

Hope this helps to answer your question.

View attachment 219630​

Yes that does thanks for that and the map too!

 

[Biblicist]

Yes that does thanks for that and the map too!

Double post.

 

[Biblicist]

Yes that does thanks for that and the map too!

That's great, I'm glad that it has helped.
I should have pointed out that even though the map shows both Corinth and Athens, that by the time of Paul the mighty Athens had become little more, as some have said, than a 'University town" which was subject to the Roman Government in Corinth, though Athens was apparently permitted to have a degree of self-determination.

Edit: Missed a few words

 

[Biblicist]

It seems ironic that eight commentators say that the gifts declined when the Church "matured", when all the contemporary Church fathers said that the gifts declined because the church backslid, lost its holiness, and was influenced by pagan beliefs. If that is what they call maturity, I wonder what planet they are on and whether they bothered to research what the early Church fathers actually said about the progress of the Church after the 4th Century.

Well said . . . well said indeed!

This 'maturity' view has certainly created within me a bit of consternation, as we both know, how can anyone say that the Church matured when even John's Letters to the Churches (Revelations) has revealed the poor state of some of the major Church centres within modern day Turkey. Even before John penned the Book of Revelations, we have Paul's Epistle to the Galatians where numerous theologians have surmised that he was about to give up on them as being a lost cause. Then as you say, the records of many of the early churchmen do not speak all that kindly of the Church of their day.

Even though I am struggling through the maturity view, to add to my woes, at first glance it seems that some commentators are maybe moving between the Canon perspective (without referring to 1 Cor 12:10) and the maturity viewpoint. As this approach is not so much a theological construct, but one that is built on a philosophical or rationalist mindset, I am finding it a bit hard to unravel; but fortunately a very obliging and helpful cessationist theologian here in Melbourne has allowed me to take a copy of his detailed 258 page unpublished Master's Thesis which takes the approach of " . . . it is concluded that the χαρίσματα [charismata] cease with the coming of New Covenant revelation", which does not specifically rely on the meaning of τὸ τέλειον 'the perfect' of 1Cor 13:10.

 

[lamb7]

That's great, I'm glad that it has helped.
I should have pointed out that even though the map shows both Corinth and Athens, that by the time of Paul it had become little more, as some have said, than a 'University town" which was subject to the Roman Government in Corinth, though Athens was apparently permitted to have a degree of self-determination.

I have an interest on history so I thoroughly enjoyed that.

 

[lamb7]

That's great, I'm glad that it has helped.
I should have pointed out that even though the map shows both the cities of Corinth and Athens, by the time of Paul Athens had become little more than a 'University town" which was subject to the Roman Government in Corinth, though Athens was apparently permitted to have a degree of self-determination.

Makes a lot of sense why Paul was placed there, great place to reach many people of many backgrounds.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well said . . . well said indeed!

This 'maturity' view has certainly created within me a bit of consternation, as we both know, how can anyone say that the Church matured when even John's Letters to the Churches (Revelations) has revealed the poor state of some of the major Church centres within modern day Turkey. Even before John penned the Book of Revelations, we have Paul's Epistle to the Galatians where numerous theologians have surmised that he was about to give up on them as being a lost cause. Then as you say, the records of many of the early churchmen do not speak all that kindly of the Church of their day.

Even though I am struggling through the maturity view, to add to my woes, at first glance it seems that some commentators are maybe moving between the Canon perspective (without referring to 1 Cor 12:10) and the maturity viewpoint. As this approach is not so much a theological construct, but one that is built on a philosophical or rationalist mindset, I am finding it a bit hard to unravel; but fortunately a very obliging and helpful cessationist theologian here in Melbourne has allowed me to take a copy of his detailed 258 page unpublished Master's Thesis which takes the approach of " . . . it is concluded that the χαρίσματα [charismata] cease with the coming of New Covenant revelation", which does not specifically rely on the meaning of τὸ τέλειον 'the perfect' of 1Cor 13:10.

I wouldn't mind getting a copy of it to see what he says. Sounds intriguing.

 

[Biblicist]

I have an interest on history so I thoroughly enjoyed that.

Okay, then you should find the following map to be of some interest.
The map has been taken from Google Maps of current day Peloponnese (Southern Greece) where I have superimposed the layout of ancient Corinth (in red) with an approximate route that travelers would have taken from the seaports of Lechaion and Cenchrae.

The yellow line represents the very approximate route that was used for the Diokos ship railway which ran for well over 1000 years; how many have ever heard of this during a Sunday sermon or lecture on First Corinthians - probably not many of us.

If you consider that Corinth was surrounded by a number of large towns, villages and farming communities which were connected to Corinth in some form, where probably all of the towns and villages would have had Christian communities of some description; if some of the communities were founded by those of other culture/language groups we could very well have had some church communities speaking in languages other than Latin and Greek, the Jews may very well have kept to Hebrew as well which is what we see nowadays in similar ethnic communities in our own regions.

 

[Biblicist]

I wouldn't mind getting a copy of it to see what he says. Sounds intriguing.

Yes . . . yes . . . I would like to oblige but at this stage he has only allowed me to have a copy providing that I do not pass it on to others, which by the way is a bit of a shame as Master's and Doctoral thesis' can be quite informative and detailed, as undoubtedly was the case with your own Masters thesis.

Mind you, when I explained to this professor what I was doing, this was about the 8th or 10th University/College that I had visited, I was absolutely stunned when he said something along the lines of "Oh, I did my Master's thesis on 1 Cor 13:10, here it is here on the shelf". By the time that we both met, I was becoming a bit frustrated as I only had maybe four or so commentaries out of maybe 200 that referred to the Canon or maturity viewpoint, so to be able to even hold in my hands a detailed analysis of a viewpoint that I disagree with was quite a moment for me.

For what its worth, I have pasted a few lines of his Thesis into Google search but sadly no one has posted a copy of it on the web!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes . . . yes . . . I would like to oblige but at this stage he has only allowed me to have a copy providing that I do not pass it on to others, which by the way is a bit of a shame as Master's and Doctoral thesis' can be quite informative and detailed, as undoubtedly was the case with your own Masters thesis.

Mind you, when I explained to this professor what I was doing, this was about the 8th or 10th University/College that I had visited, I was absolutely stunned when he said something along the lines of "Oh, I did my Master's thesis on 1 Cor 13:10, here it is here on the shelf". By the time that we both met, I was becoming a bit frustrated as I only had maybe four or so commentaries out of maybe 200 that referred to the Canon or maturity viewpoint, so to be able to even hold in my hands a detailed analysis of a viewpoint that I disagree with was quite a moment for me.

For what its worth, I have pasted a few lines of his Thesis into Google search but sadly no one has posted a copy of it on the web!

Fair enough. I half expected that. I was pushing my luck!
My research paper for my MDiv was "Divine Healing, Then and Now" a study of the Scriptural, Historical, Modern instances of healing, with a survey of modern methods. I'm not sure where it is on my computer, but when I find it I will give you a copy.

 

[Biblicist]

Fair enough. I half expected that. I was pushing my luck!
My research paper for my MDiv was "Divine Healing, Then and Now" a study of the Scriptural, Historical, Modern instances of healing, with a survey of modern methods. I'm not sure where it is on my computer, but when I find it I will give you a copy.

That would be much appreciated!

It sounds like you need to have your Thesis printed and bound, even if you only make a copy for yourself and a few family members, especially after all the preparation and hard work that you have undoubtedly put into it; or maybe you might one day decide to submit it to an online thesis site for others to view.

A few months back at one of the colleges that I visit, I came across a handful of Doctoral candidates who were going through the long and torturous process of having their dissertation subjects approved by their Doctoral supervisors; when I saw the stress on the faces of a few of them I thought that maybe it was not all that good an idea for me to be there.

This is the stage that I have not quite arrived at as I want to source as many materials as I can before I make a decision. My main goal, once the free PDF on 1Cor 13:10 was completed is to have as much material as I can legally provide on a web resource, being based on Acts, Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14, Eph 4 etc; but if I decide to do my Masters then this will have to go on hold until it is completed as I doubt that they would accept any material that has been previously published/released.

 

[Major1]

I lost the context of this, what is it? thank you

Someone said that Jesus was "appearing" to Muslims and many were getting saved.

 

[Major1]

That's interesting, because right up to that time, the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were commonplace in the Church, according to the writing of the principal Church fathers.

Then you are saying by this that the gifts actually did cease?

 

[lamb7]

Then you are saying by this that the gifts actually did cease?

It seems those that had the idea of restoration of the gifts did think they ceased since they said God is choosing to restore...forgot where I read that???? Not sure...

 

[lamb7]

Okay, then you should find the following map to be of some interest.
The map has been taken from Google Maps of current day Peloponnese (Southern Greece) where I have superimposed the layout of ancient Corinth (in red) with an approximate route that travelers would have taken from the seaports of Lechaion and Cenchrae.

The yellow line represents the very approximate route that was used for the Diokos ship railway which ran for well over 1000 years; how many have ever heard of this during a Sunday sermon or lecture on First Corinthians - probably not many of us.

If you consider that Corinth was surrounded by a number of large towns, villages and farming communities which were connected to Corinth in some form, where probably all of the towns and villages would have had Christian communities of some description; if some of the communities were founded by those of other culture/language groups we could very well have had some church communities speaking in languages other than Latin and Greek, the Jews may very well have kept to Hebrew as well which is what we see nowadays in similar ethnic communities in our own regions.

View attachment 219634​

Yes I do love this! Thank you again for that history lesson. I actually loved history in school

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Then you are saying by this that the gifts actually did cease?

They didn't cease. They gradually declined, and the declining happened more quickly after Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and made all the pagans join the Christian churches, and had specific building constructed for Christian worship. The Church fathers of the period wrote that the decline of the gifts was because of the decline of holiness and the increasing authority of the bishops who "pushed out prophecy" because it interfered with their own authority. It is interesting that the teaching that the gift ceased at the end of the Apostolic age and/or the final settling of the Canon was not known before the 1870s. Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 says that the gifts died out because of misuse. But I agree with you on this point - that after the Fourth Century, the gifts were not in widespread use in the churches. I think we have a difference of opinion about the reasons why.

But I agree with you that there are many false claims about the use of the gifts today in many of the churches that claim to use them, and that we don't see the apostolic ministry as it was in the Early Church, because of the reasons I have already given on this thread. As long as our modern churches are self-seeking, self-indulgent, and lack a passion for the lost, other than put bums on seats in their churches, then we won't see the true power of God and the manifestation of the gifts as they should be.

 

[Major1]

They didn't cease. They gradually declined, and the declining happened more quickly after Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and made all the pagans join the Christian churches, and had specific building constructed for Christian worship. The Church fathers of the period wrote that the decline of the gifts was because of the decline of holiness and the increasing authority of the bishops who "pushed out prophecy" because it interfered with their own authority. It is interesting that the teaching that the gift ceased at the end of the Apostolic age and/or the final settling of the Canon was not known before the 1870s. Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 says that the gifts died out because of misuse. But I agree with you on this point - that after the Fourth Century, the gifts were not in widespread use in the churches. I think we have a difference of opinion about the reasons why.

But I agree with you that there are many false claims about the use of the gifts today in many of the churches that claim to use them, and that we don't see the apostolic ministry as it was in the Early Church, because of the reasons I have already given on this thread. As long as our modern churches are self-seeking, self-indulgent, and lack a passion for the lost, other than put bums on seats in their churches, then we won't see the true power of God and the manifestation of the gifts as they should be.

As to why is not really worth a debate.

The point which you I agree on are that "Cease = Ends = Declined" just as was said by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

We are agreed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As to why is not really worth a debate.

The point which you I agree on are that "Cease = Ends = Declined" just as was said by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

We are agreed.

My view of the "perfect" that if the "perfect" was the completed canon of Scripture, or the mature Church, then these two should be replacing the extraordinary signs and wonders that amazed the pagans and made thousands upon thousands turn to Christ and actually Christianised the Roman Empire. The problem is, that although we have the "perfect" Scriptures and the "mature" Church we are seeing none of that. What we are seeing are self-indulgent churches behaving like Christian "clubs" and the community around them getting more and more godless, heartless, criminal, homosexual, involved in the occult, muslim mosques and Hindu temples, and false cults on the rise. With the "perfect" Scriptures and the "mature" Church that has supposed to have replaced the signs and wonders, the opposite is happening than what happened in the First Century. Instead of Christianizing our society, our society is being quickly paganised instead. It seems that all the outcomes of the First Century are today being reversed, and we have the "perfect" Scriptures and the "mature" Church. How can this be?