Sickness, Faith, and Healing

[sola fide]

Just a note, I don't believe that 1 Tim. 2:15 has anything to do with labor pains, neither does it imply that it does.
Most theologians/commentators would agree, as do I, that that verse is referring to the womans role established upon creation, of child bearing, i.e. multiplying, in order for covenental succession to occur.
It alludes to her fulfilling her God-given role...not that she is redeemed from all pain associated with it.
1 Tim. 5:14 "Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children..."
Remember, many had been falsely taught that they should not be married, this however went against God's purposes in creation.
It's also funny to me how that scripture in 1 Tim. 2 is so quickly utilized as a proof text, when most disregard the previous statements about women not speaking in church.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"IN THE FIRST PLACE LOUIS, WHERE DID I SAY THAT WE DID NOT HAVE TO WORK!????"

I think its you not reading carefully enough Andrew. I quoted snup and was replying to him. Not you. Please read more carefully next time.

"Scripture already proves that we have been redeemed from the curse of hard labour and labour pains. if you cant accept that, that's up to you."

Nope, it sure doesn't. that verse in tim is talking about the birth of christ, not the removal of labor pains. the verse in Gal is talking about being a slave to sin, not removing the judgement of God in the garden. those are 2 very different things.


Snup. I explained this already. We are saved from sin, not the consequences of sin. The consequences of our sin was God cursed the ground, made us sweat and work, and gave women labor pains (curse to adam and eve). We are not saved from those consequences. We are saved from sin itself, being no longer a slave to it. That's what paul says and is talking about in any verse he talks about the curse of adam. he is not talking about the judgement God gave out to Adam. Please read the context of your verses.

so... we're not saved from the consequences of Adams sin, but we are saved from the consequences of sin?

Thanks for clearing that up.  ...? huh?

 

[Andrew]

quote:"Snup. I explained this already. We are saved from sin, not the consequences of sin."

Huh? Wages of sin is death/hell. So we're saved from sin but not hell?

QUOTE: "that verse in tim is talking about the birth of christ,"

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith

so "they" here are the women giving birth to Christ? hello!

QUOTE: "the verse in Gal is talking about being a slave to sin,"

Ga 3:13 -- Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

nope its talking abt being redeemed from the curse of the law. read again words in bold.

QUOTE:"Just a note, I don't believe that 1 Tim. 2:15 has anything to do with labor pains, neither does it imply that it does."

I think Jackie Mize wld know better, she's given birth to several without pain. have you?

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by sola fide
Just a note, I don't believe that 1 Tim. 2:15 has anything to do with labor pains, neither does it imply that it does.
Most theologians/commentators would agree, as do I, that that verse is referring to the womans role established upon creation, of child bearing, i.e. multiplying, in order for covenental succession to occur.
It alludes to her fulfilling her God-given role...not that she is redeemed from all pain associated with it.
1 Tim. 5:14 "Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children..."
Remember, many had been falsely taught that they should not be married, this however went against God's purposes in creation.
It's also funny to me how that scripture in 1 Tim. 2 is so quickly utilized as a proof text, when most disregard the previous statements about women not speaking in church.

Soli Deo gloria!

Most theologians don't agree!!!  Bad source reference.

 

[LouisBooth]

"we're not saved from the consequences of Adams sin, but we are saved from the consequences of sin? "

Yup, because that is a fallen world thing. If we were then viruses would do what they do, nor would you have to kill to eat, nor would have God killed an animal to cover Adam and eve.

 

[sola fide]

Actually, I made a quick check of two extremely different study Bibles and they did agree
1.Reformation study Bible
2.Scofield study system

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by sola fide
Actually, I made a quick check of two extremely different study Bibles and they did agree
1.Reformation study Bible
2.Scofield study system

Soli Deo gloria!

Hahlayluyah!!!

You own them, that should be a clue why they agree on something you think is truth.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Most theologians don't agree!!! Bad source reference."

*chuckles* snup, on that they do. check around.

"Huh? Wages of sin is death/hell. "

Exactly, and that's what we are saved from, not saved from labor pains or being sick

"so "they" here are the women giving birth to Christ? hello!"

Yup, also in the fact, as sola described already, about child-bearing at all.

"nope its talking abt being redeemed from the curse of the law. read again words in bold."

Exactly, and what is the "curse of the law"? being captive to sin. He goes into detail in romans 7 verse 10 "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For SIN, seizing the opppertunity affored by the commandment put me to death."

Again, we are saved from death, not work or labor pains, or even sickness. Very different thing

 

[Andrew]

quote: ""we're not saved from the consequences of Adams sin, but we are saved from the consequences of sin? "

hhhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh?????????????

Romans 5: 18 -- Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[SnuP]

Louis don't you see, they all stem from the same judgement, they are the same curse.

 

[sola fide]

Originally posted by SnuP
Hahlayluyah!!!

You own them, that should be a clue why they agree on something you think is truth.

Actually, the 2 Bible commentaries I mentioned are extremely different...one holds a reformed view of doctrine, the other holds a dispensationaly view. That's why I used them, they vary greatly in doctrine, but agree on that subject.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

Sin leads to death, death of the womb, death of the ground, spiritual death, death from disease, death death death. It is all death. None of these existed untill adam sinned.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Sin leads to death, death of the womb, death of the ground, spiritual death, death from disease, death death death. It is all death."

Nope. that's not biblical the death is seemly spiritual death, sin seperates you from God, that's it. All the rest are judgement in the garden.

 

[SnuP]

The Bible say that the wages of sin is death, it doesn't not say that it is only spiritual death. You already know that Adam would not have died if he obeyed God. Why do I always have to state the obvious?

 

[sola fide]

You're right, the wages of sin is physical death. Adam deserved death on the spot the moment he sinned, as do we...It's only by grace that we are even alive and breathing. But eventual death is still inevitable...it is a curse that will not be broken on the earth as we know it. Just as other curses set forth at the time of the fall.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Andrew]

"You already know that Adam would not have died if he obeyed God."

for some reason, Louis doesnt buy this, Snup.

He believes God created Adam originally with a body that wld eventually grow old, get sick and die.

 

[Andrew]

"But eventual death is still inevitable...it is a curse that will not be broken on the earth as we know it."

then what does Ga 3:13 mean to you?

r u going to also say that the curses in Deu 28 have been dealt with but not those in the garden? ie Jesus forgot abt the curses in the garden?

or do u like Louis, believe Ga 3:13 has to do with us being slaves to sin, n nothing to do with being redeemed from the curse of the law, although that's specifically what it says?

 

[sola fide]

I believe the doctrine established by the reformers called the "creation ordinances". This means that the ordinances/judgments established in Genesis will always remain and cannot be changed.
death, birth pains, man's cursing as to labor, capitol punishment (he who kills shall be put to death) are all still as relevant today as they were in the old covenant.
They are not persay, part of the law, they are before the law...before the decalogue, and before God dealing with His children of the covenant, ie the Hebrews. Therefore to live under them doesn't mean that we are slaves to the law.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[LouisBooth]

"You already know that Adam would not have died if he obeyed God. Why do I always have to state the obvious?"

Actually that is up for debate, but yes I don't think he would have died if he had not sinned. Physical and spiritual death is the result of sin. the "creation ordinances" as sola puts it are not direct results of sin, or Paul would have expressly talked about it, which he did not. He ONLY talked about spiritual rebirth, as did Christ.

Gal 3:13 means he saved me from the curse of the law, which I already explained is death, not the judgements in the garden. See romans 7:10-11

 

[Andrew]

"I believe the doctrine"
ok. but i rather go with the Word and see if this doctrine cld have some errors.

"Gal 3:13 means he saved me from the curse of the law, which I already explained is death,"

well isnt death an "ordinances/judgments established in Genesis" which "will always remain and cannot be changed." and now you say "Gal 3:13 means he saved me from the curse of the law, which I already explained is death".

Well the curse of the law aint just spiritual or physical death (or slavery to sin). It includes Deu 28. Ask any Messianic Jew.