Sick of Protestant-bashing

[CelticRebel]

I've gotten much out of this thread. I'm not Evangelical or Orthodox, as I have agreements and disagreements with both. I do believe this: Christians should not hate other Christians.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

What about them? The LDS is not Christian. This one doctrine should be enough.....Jesus and Satan are brothers. YIKE!!!!


It seems that way to me too.

It's a Protestant cult that dabbles in the sexual slavery of minors?

 

[All4Christ]

I would love for you to share, always open to hearing a different perspective. My belief is that all believers are the Church and as such the Bible was written for US....and with the help of the Holy Spirit to read, explore, and understand the will of God in our lives....don't mean to preach.....

I won't dispute that the Bible is for us all! I would dispute that individualistic guidance of the Holy Spirit promotes consistent understanding of Scripture. Why do I think that? There are a million different interpretations of Scripture that all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Since God is not a God of confusion, I have a hard time accepting that God would guide people to have so many interpretations, hence causing division of the Body of Christ. Just my two cents I'll explain a some more later. There are other reasons I have as well. I understand where you are coming from though.

I am going to share my testimony with you....something I rarely do with anyone simply because it is so intensely personal. I know others will see it but so be it. Even now I am wiping tears away and I have not even started telling my story.....I was about 29 and attending a Nazarene Church. They were having a revival (Nazarene's love their revivals). He was preaching on Revelation (don't remember exactly what). After he was done he had his altar call (Nazarene's love altar call even more than revivals) asking that if the Lord came that night would you be ready? I asked myself that question and then I asked God....Was I ready? I kept asking for what seemed like several minutes but I am sure was much less. For years I always said I heard the words, but in reality I felt the words throughout my body, 2 words: TRUST ME. It knocked me to my knees and if there had not be a pew in front of me to grab hold of I would have been flat on the floor. I was in the presence of the Almighty God and even now I can't stop crying over the power I felt that night. It was awesome and amazing and terrifying all at the same time and even tonight I can still feel His power. That night I know I was saved. While I appreciate your perspective on salvation maybe you can understand mine.
Eyes dried, nose blown....manliness reestablished....just kidding

Thank you for sharing your testimony! It sounds like a beautiful experience, and I would agree with @truefiction1 that I believe 100% that it is genuine. I believe that God provides these experiences for our salvation. So often, we become complacent in our lives, and we have this tendency to feel like we are ok and that our lives are good enough. God reaches out to us and gives us these experiences, making us realize that God is with us and that we need to trust in God for His support through our lives and for our salvation. So yes, I definitely understand your perspective, and I definitely believe that experience was from God. I'm sure it has impacted your life daily from that point, just as some experiences I had prior to becoming Orthodox have impacted my life daily. They are gifts from God, and we treasure them deeply. I also know what you mean by saying that you know that you were saved that night

That said, I believe that those experiences are starts of our journey. Perhaps you would be willing to hear a bit more of my thoughts on the matter? My previous post was a small bit of our views on salvation, but does not cover the entirety of it. Likewise, since we have a very holistic view of salvation in my opinion, there are many aspects of salvation that are all true


EDIT: Apparently, I wrote a post that is too long (sorry for the length!) so I'll separate it into two.

 

[All4Christ]

Regarding Philippians 2:12 (Paul said that we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.)

One of my favorites but I have always viewed this in the context of OSAS in that salvation can be lost therefore you must continue to nurture it.

Yes, I understood it that way for years as well. In a sense, that isn't far from what we believe either. Remember, we believe that we were saved, that we are being saved, and that we will be saved. We believe in a point of salvation, yes, but it doesn't end then. We continue to 'work out' our salvation in fear and trembling. We were saved, but we continue to cooperate with God as we pursue Him each and every day, and by His grace (and His grace alone) become more and more like Him.
Regarding Matthew 7:21 (Not everyone who confesses our Lord Jesus will be saved.)

A mouth may say one thing but a heart something else....

Very true. However, it isn't that verse alone that provides our viewpoint on that

I Corinthians 15

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. ...But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

We always need to look at all aspects of the Scripture regarding salvation. There are two parts to this scripture. We are saved by that which we were taught, if we hold fast to that word. If we haven't held fast to that word, we have believed in vain. Note that this doesn't state any end to when we need to hold fast the word, lest we believe in vain. Then we see the second part: it is not I, but the grace of God which was with me (that made Paul who he was). God's grace enables us to participate in our salvation, to hold fast the word and teachings that were given to us. Without God's grace and without our faith in God, our works are nothing. Yet - we still need to work out that salvation throughout our life. It isn't a once and done deal (in regards to our acceptance of the grace God gives us).

Regarding James 2:14-17 (can faith save us without the accompanying life?)

This again, is a favorite but I always include the next verse: 18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from [thy] works, and I by my works will show thee [my] faith.
Paul says we are justified before God by faith not works so none may boast (another fav). James says we are justified before men by works so that they may see our faith. If you have Christ within you, works become second nature.

I agree with you that if we have Christ within us, the works will accompany that. That's why we need to keep choosing to have Christ within us. If we reject Him, even though we accepted Him before, He will not force us to have Him within us. He gave us a beautiful gift of free will. This means, we are given the opportunity to accept Him, but we are also given the opportunity to either continue working out our salvation (continuing to accept Him) or to turn away and no longer keep Christ within us.
Once again, there are many scriptures that point out multiple aspects of our salvation. Several places in the Bible, people asked what they need to do to be saved. Let's take a look at a few of them (remember, an individual scripture by itself may sound like one thing, but when you combine it with other scripture, it may mean something slightly different).
Salvation requires belief (Acts 16:25-34):

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

I used to take this to mean belief is the requirement for salvation. Now I believe that belief is one aspect that is required for salvation. I'm going to go back to the verse I mentioned earlier about faith and works, and include some of the scripture around it (I apologize about all the verse being pasted in here, but I want to highlight a few portions).
James 2:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [What you said earlier is that works come as second nature when you have Christ within you. Note that I agree with this, but I also see in this verse that faith can become 'dead'. Just because you have faith doesn't mean that it will always be there.]

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [the demons have belief in God - but does that mean they are saved? Keep this in mind when looking at the verse above that states to believe...and you will be saved]

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead [Again, faith can die]

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [We are working together with God to perfect our faith, each day that we choose Him for the purpose of working out our salvation]

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

So this discusses a few things. Belief is not the only thing required for our salvation. Faith goes hand in hand with works. We can lose our faith (it can die).

For further discussion on the Orthodox view of salvation, justification and sanctification, you can look at this link: http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/ortho...justification-response-protestant-criticisms/

A few more scriptures to look at: Matthew 7:3, Matthew 7:23 and Luke 13:27

I know I am going through a lot of Scriptures, and I am not fully portraying all aspects of the Orthodox view on salvation (it would take much more than a single post!).

One more aspect of salvation (which is troublesome to many Evangelicals), is about baptism:

Among the Orthodox, baptism is more than just a symbolic act of burial and resurrection, but an actual supernatural transformation. Baptism is believed to impart cleansing (remission) of sins and union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (see Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12, 3:1-4). We can discuss that more in future posts if you are interested.

Also, since the Orthodox view of salvation has so many aspects, I'm sure I missed some. I'm mainly addressing this now from the perspective of where I came from before, so please take this as an overview regarding some of your questions, rather than a comprehensive view of salvation. Greg's overview was very good for that.

I just had an epiphany...I think. I have read that scripture and always thought I had skipped the baptism part before I received the HS. It just occurred to me that I was baptized as an infant....nothing got skipped. God knows even if I don't.
Thank you All4Christ. I may have more questions if you don't mind.....

I'd be happy to answer anything (to the best of my ability ).

 

[fat wee robin]

Completely agree. My whole family are Evangelical.

Evangelical faith led me to Orthodoxy.

And I still learn from Protestants such as CS Lewis and Tim Keller.

Well I went the other way, and learned so much from my evangelical friends on the bible ,and how some classical literature is saturated with christian beliefs .My most favourites being Russians like Tolstoy ,Dostoevsky , Victor Hugo ,and many more .This was never brought up in RC school and the English Catholic ones I don't relate to .

 

[fat wee robin]

Hey Everybody,

One thing I found positively refreshing and awesome when I came to Orthodoxy as an inquierer was the fact that Orthodox Christians tended to their own laundry. They talked about what Orthodoxy teaches and believes without the need to compare themselves to a pathetic boogey-man. They aren't the types of folks to feel the need to vent about or bash someone in order to bolster their own theological strengths.

When I was Catholic, I was positively sickened by the fact that Catholics 24/7 in Catholic Answers Forums and other fanatical websites spend most of their time reminding Protestants how "invalid" and "lost" and pathetic and screwed-up they are. Their fires get fed by slamming 'those poor Protestants.'

I criticize Protestantism absolutely. I don't agree with many things about it, and I definitely proclaim Holy Orthodoxy as "THE" Church of Christ Jesus. But I don't need to bash Protestants and their efforts or their approaches to things in order to bolster my own Orthodoxy.

TAW lately has become a bit annoying imho with this manufactured outrage. We have folks getting hot and fumin' over the fact that some evangelicals are mad about Starbucks cups yet they devote entire threads to the subject. So it's ironic that one petty outrage gives birth to another!

I hope TAW can get back to the high road class I saw in it years ago and stop the Protestant-slammin'. My kids go to a Lutheran school and those teachers, by and large, are awesome folks. My parents are Anglicans, and we can all learn much from Protestants. C.S. Lewis pops into mind! I'm not suggesting all churches are the same, just hoping we can enter into this beautiful season without feeling the need to harp on the failings of Protestants. There are plenty of times I hear Protestants say inane things with which I disagree. I tire of the Zionism of some and the crusades of others. I can sit here and laugh at Protestants, or I can be honest and thank them for the heritage of this country. My ancestors were Calvinists and Pilgrims on the Mayflower. They built this land. And I can understand why Luther railed against the Catholic institutions of his time despite the fact I wish he had headed to Orthodoxy instead. I can see the good in them just as I can see the good in Catholicism with its passionate hatred of abortion and its strong pro-life warfare.

I think we're better than evangelical bashing. This country is headed off a cliff with an albatross around its neck. We need evangelicals and Catholics and other Christians as allies, not enemies or fodder for our fun-poking.

Ok, my rant is over.

This is an important post . I will probably not join any Church as I see them a bit like clubs (boxing ones),I never had met a real protestant until I was adult and was surprised that they looked like us, and did not have horns . I know they thought we were 'devils' ,and many still do .When I look at the Church from outside which you cant' do when you're inside ,one can see their point of view in all the weird things they wear and symbols etc .

 

[fat wee robin]

A few observations and I'm done....

You throw out people's names who "liked" your post that I didn't like. That's great. I'm glad you are liked and that you like being liked. I'm glad that you shared those people who liked you. That's excellent. It's nice to be liked.

"Free internet"---I'm aware. I never implied it wasn't.
You see Gurney , this post alone, will send you down below

"Warm reception." I disagree with you and you throw 3 tons of sarcasm at me at every turn. You come into an Orthodox forum saying you can't imagine why someone would go EO? What's to love?

"All of this posting about me is off-topic, though, so if you're good now, we should probably get back to the actual topic." Take at look at the length of your diatribes here. We're talking "War and Peace." Pot...kettle....well, you know. If you're really serious about not letting things derail, don't derail and don't respond with Homeric lengths. I feel like I'm about to mee Polyphemous or Circe!

You mention us knowing each other from the past and that I'm not happy you're here and how upset I must be about your presence. Get over yourself, Jeremy. You're not Hannibal Lecter. I'm fine with you "being here." And your staying isn't somehow going to be a Kryptonite for me that plagues my days. I don't always agree with you, but do more often than not. At CAF I agreed with you A LOT of the time and found you to be a keen intellect, a thoughtful person, and exceedingly bright. It's the sarcasm, the eye-rolling emoticons, the barbs, the talking down to people I don't care for. My thread here about Protestantism didn't even have YOU in mind, that's what is funny.

Putting you on ignore? Meh, that would take effort and I'm too busy. Typing this response is already wasting my time. I continually wonder why I'm doing it. Why should I put you on ignore? This is my thread that I started and you come in here guns blazing? I don't know, man....

Anyway, I'm keeping you. Get out there, churn out some more brilliant posts and keep telling all of us how many likes you get. I'd love to hear of your accolades!

 

[fat wee robin]

Do what? Fleece it's parishioners and steal from the church coffers? Spout off heresies and insult the Theotokos? Be bigots? Steal and oppress the poor and homeless? Do what exactly?

Do you still have that plank in your eye ,Herman ? Time to pluck it out .

 

[fat wee robin]

I'm talking about the parishioners who don't know any better because their particular denomination is what they grew up with. They don't have the Eucharist, they don't have confession, they don't have recourse to the Saints, they don't have the rich, deep theology we have access to, and yet some of them put us to shame who have recourse to all those things.

Well Prodomos , if you have the Holy Spirit guiding you ,you have all the neccessary .

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

People can treat church like a club, but in the end the Church belongs to Christ. We can't baptize ourselves, be our own confessors, marry ourselves, chrismate ourselves, etc. we need one another and the ekklesia (assembly) of the faithful is crucial. God doesn't mean for the Christian to live in isolation from his fellows.

I suffered some serious pain, disappointment, gossip, rejection, and hurt at my parish, but it taught me how to forgive and in the process I learned how far that I have to go also!! Sometimes we learn our best forgiveness and tolerance and life lessons at church. They're humans, too, and we're all sinners.

I hope, Robin, you'll consider Orthodoxy!!

This is an important post . I will probably not join any Church as I see them a bit like clubs (boxing ones),I never had met a real protestant until I was adult and was surprised that they looked like us, and did not have horns . I know they thought we were 'devils' ,and many still do .When I look at the Church from outside which you cant' do when you're inside ,one can see their point of view in all the weird things they wear and symbols etc .

 

[prodromos]

Well Prodomos , if you have the Holy Spirit guiding you ,you have all the neccessary .

Since you said "if", I can agree with your statement, as the many divisions throughout Christendom cannot possibly be of the Holy Spirit, can they.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I think the Holy Spirit most certainly does work in the lives of individual Christians in all the various denominations - as is evidenced by the high number of former protestants here. They wouldn't have come if the holy spirit wasn't guiding them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I do believe this: Christians should not hate other Christians.

I hear you and you are right, and we don't hate any of y'all. We love those outside Orthodoxy and that is why we want everyone to come home to our crazy and wonderful (and still sinful) family.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Do you still have that plank in your eye ,Herman ? Time to pluck it out .

You can't compare alleged excesses amongst the clergy to the for profit, mega churches whose mission is seemingly only to guilt people so as to churn out a steady flow of loot

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

People can treat church like a club, but in the end the Church belongs to Christ. We can't baptize ourselves, be our own confessors, marry ourselves, chrismate ourselves, etc. we need one another and the ekklesia (assembly) of the faithful is crucial. God doesn't mean for the Christian to live in isolation from his fellows.

I suffered some serious pain, disappointment, gossip, rejection, and hurt at my parish, but it taught me how to forgive and in the process I learned how far that I have to go also!! Sometimes we learn our best forgiveness and tolerance and life lessons at church. They're humans, too, and we're all sinners.

I hope, Robin, you'll consider Orthodoxy!!

Robin, consider Orthodoxy and Epsom salts! They both work wonders.

Gurney, yours is a powerful testimony regarding forgiveness. Glory to God!

Regarding today's gospel reading about the exorcism of the legion demons, father spoke of the reality of the devil and the demonic, as evidenced by what happened in Paris Friday. It is so refreshing to attend a church that doesn't soft pedal evil.

And yet, these enemies--radical Islamists-- are precisely those we need to forgive and my children and I prayed for the jihadists together before Sunday lunch.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Islamists? Lord have mercy, I pray His Divine judgement be done.

 

[fat wee robin]

Don't take this wrong, Jeremy, but your frequent use of the word "our" when referring to the Church and Christian faith might be criticized in here if we want to get picky because you are not part of "our" Church--the Orthodox Church. While our differences are mostly razor thin, the fact is the Coptic Church is not part of the Orthodox Church. You guys fell away from the ancient faith and technically aren't part of the group. Everyone tries to identify with Orthodoxy be it Copts or Catholics, but the reality is neither is part of the Church.

I disagree with you mostly here. I'll be quite honest that I think there is some real junk out there in the Protestant hinterlands. I hear prosperity gospels, crazy Benny Hinn types with white suits and too much hair spray, "can I get an amen!" altar calling yahoos, and many other questionable types. I hear and see plenty that raises my eyebrows. But the fact is, we're not going to get anywhere by just calling out bad Protestant campaigns against Starbucks or weird opinions out there. Fact is, it's just not Orthodox style to do this. The Orthodox Church is always best at one thing----TALKING ABOUT ORTHODOXY. And we can do that without constantly feeling the need to rip on other churches. And I am not sure, as a Coptic Christian, if you're part of the "we" or you'd have come to us to get chrismated? Again, don't take that as a slam, but I've never understood how someone not a member of a church can caucus with another then make fun of another they deem bizarre an "not like us" when there isn't an us to begin with?

As for your angle about how evangelicals have "weakened" Coptic villages, etc. I would suggest that if the Coptic Church (and Orthodox for that matter!!!) had done a better job of catechesis, preaching, and pastoral care, perhaps those folks wouldn't have felt confounded? I am confident enough now (finally) in my Orthodoxy that I won't be easily converted by an hipster that comes to my front door with a Watchtower or Mormon eternal marriage literature. I know the nuts and bolts of the religion of Orthodoxy, and I know it's the only real game in town. So I'm not given to conversion now despite my former weakness and failures.

It's the same with the Philippines. Catholics are up in arms about how the Iglesia ni Cristo and the Mormons and JW's and a host of other folks have been able to swoop in and "steal" away the Catholic heritage of Filipinos. My wife will tell you that most Filipinos are governed by strong emotion, passion, and feeling rather than a strong catechesis. And when that's the case....woooah, boy, look out. So you Coptic folks and we Orthodox need to quit whining about the evangelicals thieving our people away and start building a stronger fortress for our kids in their faith to withstand the siege towers of the Protestants!

I think your last paragraph where you seem to see practically nothing redeeming in Protestant Christianity that bothers me the most. While I reject the "solas" and being "saved" and many other Protestant facets, my ancestors, Calvinists, are people I respect. They built a strong Christian fabric into this nation along with the other Protestants in different states. It is probably this ingrained old Protestant faith that is just about the ONLY THING keeping us from becoming Europe! My great great grandfather was a Methodist missionary circuit-rider and a brave soul who went throughout the Midwest and South preaching Jesus Christ to people who didn't give a fig about God. He won a lot of folks over. I have ancestors on the Mayflower and some brave family members like Captain George Denison, my ancestor, who was a courageous Calvinist. He returned to the UK to help Oliver Cromwell fight. I have an Anglican priest in my heritage along with several other clergy. I don't see them as wackos, outlandish, or having wasted their lives. I see great heroism in them despite my personal disagreements with them. They were good folks trying to do the best with their understanding of the Christian religion, despite the flaws.

I think there is great good in Martin Luther, in John Wesley, and in men like John Stott and C.S. Lewis, JI Packer, and several other Protestants. As a mature Orthodox guy, I can take the good in their opinions and toss the mistaken errors and appreciate the good in their lives.

I say we take the high road where we avoid blasting Protestants where possible, only address individual errors with them, and be charitable. I am merely saying that TAW has traditionally been pretty dignified in its dealings with non-Orthodox, and I'd like to keep it that way. Polemical anti talk just doesn't endear anyone. My parish rolls that way. Many are former Protestants in my parish. You rarely hear them blasting their past. That tends to be the newbie youngins who are fanatical and driven to polemics.

Anyway, my two cents....the ramblings of a teacher in the midst of report cards, parent-teacher conferences, minimum days, and two much work with not enough pay!

What do you mean you are glad you are not Europe ? As far as I can see, it is the U.S. of A., that has poisoned us ,not the other way round ,and we have no pastors with 'hairspray here ,nor white suits, or mega churches . For us , the U.S. is Holywood , Satan's Gaming Palace .

 

[dzheremi]

Oh Lord...please let it die, FWR. Please. I've stopped responding, as has Gurney, so there's no need to resurrect this argument (or at best, it would be better served in a completely different thread about that particular topic). Thank you.

 

[fat wee robin]

"I think that many things we believe at the core are the same"

On a foundational level, this is not true. Having some beliefs in common isn't enough. One must have the proper understanding and teaching in order to obtain salvation. You're right that this doesn't mean that we judge anyone, but we can and do judge institutions, systems, beliefs, practices, etc. We have to try our best to keep the abstract concepts and institutions separate from specific individual people when we discuss these things. I think this is a challenge for many, but we mustn't allow that to sidetrack us from discussing the salvific holy teachings of the Church in contrast to other teachings and beliefs.

I think that while we wait for civilwarbuff to come back and share with us his background, we can start discussing some of the important and fundamental differences between us and Protestantism. Please note very carefully, lest anyone make giant leaps of assumptions, what I'm about to say are generalizations, I repeat, generalizations.

I believe the fundamental differences can be found in two main areas: What is Salvation? And, What Or Who Is The Final Authority in the Life of the Christian? From both of these two areas, everything else we do and believe flows.

It is also important for Protestants to understand that from the Orthodox perspective, there isn't a strong distinction between "essential" and "non-essential" doctrines. All doctrine is essential, all doctrine is apostolic. Everything else we do and say again, as before, flows from the teachings of the Church. Everything we need for our salvation has been given to us. God has not left us in the dark about anything.

What Is Protestantism?

The best place to begin is with the term "Protestant". It means a community of faith with Western European roots that at some point can trace its origins to the Reformation or in some cases to the Reformation's precursor movements. These broke with Rome at first, then with each other on various points of theology and practice.

But with or without the break all these churches use or used the theological dogmas, practices, conceptual framework of the Roman Catholic Church as their touchstone…some "+" some "-" on any given issue but still plotting theology on the same x/y axes as it were.

What is Salvation?

In the west the common soteriological paradigm begins with St. Augustine, and was expanded by Anshelm was essentially juridical. That is to say salvation was conceived of in terms appropriate to a courtroom or to legal transactions. Anselm's modeled that juridical setting on the court of a feudalistic lord…and this is the concept that stayed in most Protestant Churches: God's eternal dignity is offended by man's sin. This offense warrants death. God could not/would not forgive this offense without the sacrifice of someone of equal dignity to Himself. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity became man and fulfilled this requirement. Henceforth those who believed inChrist were declared "not guilty" and would be granted entry into heaven at their death.

Rome has this view too but insisted that only the truly holy entered heaven. Man had to in a sense "earn" his salvation by the keeping of various Church obligations and good deeds, prayer, etc. This earned him merit. To that by virtue of his devotions to the saints, requesting their help, he received more merits…the idea being to eventually earn the merit of Christ, whose merits secured man's salvation in particular. Basically you had to "prove" to Christ you were worthy of His sacrifice so that He would extend His saving work's benefits to you. This was still a legal transaction…just with a few extra steps of a similar nature thrown in. Salvation was a condition of being declared "not guilty" before the judgment throne of God.

Protestants in various ways simplified those steps but retained the same foundational framework as the Roman Catholics, salvation is being declared "not guilty". One is thereby saved both from God and from Hell…in short God has decided on the basis of your profession of faith in Christ's sacrifice not to kill you, and instead be more kindly disposed towards you.

The Orthodox hear this and it makes us shudder. It effectively makes God the ultimate enemy of man who can only be appeased in his fury by the murder of His own Son. He is either a monster placated only with blood, or weak and needy…bound by some greater necessity (the law) to destroy us.

While the Orthodox admit there is a juridical image expressed in scripture regarding salvation, it is no where near what Anselm made it out to be, and furthermore it is not central to what salvation is. Rather the central paradigm is that of a hospital and physician. In this paradigm man is sick unto death with sin. Christ comes as the great physician who offers us His life in the place of our own so that we may be healed and become like Him. The Church is the hospital where in one find those at every stage from the gravely ill to those on the threshold of complete healing, and everything in between. The sacraments of the Church, the icons, the worship, prayer, its feasts and fasts is the therapy of the Church through which a we become healed and become more like Christ and incorporates Christ's life into our own and are little by little healed. Salvation for the Orthodox is not getting to heaven…but becoming what God is by His Grace as it were.

And that leads to another important point and difference. Grace isn't God's disposition towards us. Grace is the very power of God in us, transforming us, and enabling us to live the life we are called to live. Grace isn't an attitude, but the very uncreated energy of God Himself.

Authority:

Protestants will tend to say that the Bible as they currently have it is the final authority. Each man may read and interpret it for himself. While there may be other "authorities" in a given faith community, the Bible itself is paramount.

Orthodox believe the Tradition is paramount and we believe that the Scriptures, which are a product of the Church are an important part of, but not exists over Tradition…the Paradosis, that which is handed down. So for the Orthodox it is theologically impossible to pit the Bible against Tradition, they are part of the same authoritative corpus. This is rooted in the belief that the life of the Church is given by the Holy Spirit, and the Tradition of the Church is the totality of everything revealed to us by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, which has been handed down (Traditio=handed down) to the successive generations of believers.

Thus there is no bright line between the body of texts we call the Scriptures and the writings of the great saints and martyrs who followed the Apostles. They all are rock from the same mountain…the Scriptures simply being the very summit of that mountain…those texts authorized (by the Church) to be used within the Church for it's worship and teaching. The Scriptures were written by and for the Church. It is the Church that interprets Scripture, not the individual.
Furthermore the Scriptures while regarded as very deep are not a guidebook or enclycopedia concerning the life of man and the order and worship of the Church. Those gaps are filled by other aspects of the Tradition.

This keeps us from going to the Scriptures or any other part of the life of the Church with just our own eyes and judgments. We live and believe as body in and across time. We read Scripture with 2000 year old eyes. We understand the faith by hearing the counsel of the saints and holy teachers nearest to our own time..and understand earlier saints by those who came after them down to our own time. Private individual understandings about anything in the life and faith of the Church leads to chaos, division, and heresy.

Thankyou for a wonderfully helpful and clear exposition of the difference between the fearful God of evangelical belief, and the E.O. as Jesus as Physician and so on. Quite wonderful and complete ,obviously the true original Church .

 

[fat wee robin]

QUOTE="St Herman's Ghost, post: 68860336, member: 379820"]You can't compare alleged excesses amongst the clergy to the for profit, mega churches whose mission is seemingly only to guilt people so as to churn out a steady flow of loot[/QUOTE]
Herman ,no mega churches here where I live, in civilised Europe .