Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

[Doug Brents]

@Doug Brents

Here's another thing too that is worth noting. Let's look at Genesis "literally" as you seem to want to do:

Genesis 1:6-8, 14-19 NASB1995
[6] Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. [8] God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
[14] Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; [15] and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. [16] God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. [17] God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, [18] and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. [19] There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Did you catch that?

You see, the firmament is in the midst of the waters, with the waters above, those restrained above, being above the firmament, or raqia.

No. These waters were between the first heaven (the atmosphere of the Earth) and the second heaven (space). The ancient Israelites had the concept of three different "heavens": the first being the Earth's atmosphere, the second being space (here the sun, moon, and stars are), (these were referred to as the "heavenly realms"), and the third being where God dwells (the spiritual realm outside of the physical universe).

 

[Job 33:6]

A literal wall of wood or steel or such that restrained the waters? No. But even today we speak metaphorically of the "heavens being opened" or "the floodgates of the sky being released" when there is a major rainstorm (ie: hurricane).

Ok, so you're comfortable with metaphorical language in Genesis as well, that's a good start.

Do you acknowledge that in the Bible, after the flood, the waters above and below the earth never went anywhere?

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

As noted above, the "waters above" are referenced later in scripture as well, as still being present. For example:

Psalm 148:4 NASB1995
Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens! Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place FOREVER AND EVER, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

The flood ended when the waters above were restrained by the closing of the floodgates, according to the NASB.

Not that all the flood waters had fallen down and that none were left.

The water below the earth (not inside the earth like groundwater, but actually under the earth) are also described in several places in scripture, after the flood.

Some examples:
The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

We could find lots of passages about these topics if we dug around.

This is an important point.

 

[Job 33:6]

No. These waters were between the first heaven (the atmosphere of the Earth) and the second heaven (space). The ancient Israelites had the concept of three different "heavens": the first being the Earth's atmosphere, the second being space (here the sun, moon, and stars are), (these were referred to as the "heavenly realms"), and the third being where God dwells (the spiritual realm outside of the physical universe).

The NASB says what it says. Just read it:

Genesis 1:6-7, 14, 17 NASB1995
[6] Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.

1. God made the expanse. This separated the waters above the expanse from those below.


[14] Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
[17] God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,

2. And God place the stars in the expanse.

That's it. It doesn't pull any gymnastics about multiple heavens and some disappearing with the flood and...

No. God made the expanse. There is water above the expanse. The stars are then set or placed in the expanse.

The waters above are therefore, above the stars. And those same waters, restrained by the expanse, are later released upon the earth.

The stars are placed or set in the expanse.
The "waters above" are not below the expanse, they are above the expanse.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ok, so you're comfortable with metaphorical language in Genesis as well, that's a good start.

Do you acknowledge that in the Bible, after the flood, the waters above and below the earth never went anywhere?

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

As noted above, the "waters above" are referenced later in scripture as well, as still being present. For example:

Psalm 148:4 NASB1995
Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens! Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place FOREVER AND EVER, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

The flood ended when the waters above were restrained by the closing of the floodgates, according to the NASB.

Not that all the flood waters had fallen down and that none were left.

That is an assumption you are making. But it is not necessarily consistent with the world we see around us today. As noted previously, there was no rainfall before the Flood. So the waters above the atmosphere were constrained by God in a way that kept them in the sky, but that man could see through to the sun, moon, and stars (so it wasn't in cloud form as we know them today). But there is no water layer above the Earth (other than the clouds) today, or the space vehicles we have sent back and forth would have encountered it.

The language of "releasing" and "closing" the floodgates is figurative. We do not know if there was still any water in the layer above the Earth or not, but we know it is not still there today (and hasn't been in the last hundred years plus for which we have had measuring instruments and recorded information). There is much speculation that could be done about what amount remained at the end of the Flood, and what function (if any were necessary) caused that remainder to dissipate, but it would be completely useless. We know it is not there now, and we know that it was there before the Flood.

The water below the earth (not inside the earth like groundwater, but actually under the earth) are also described in several places in scripture, after the flood.

Some examples:
The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

We could find lots of passages about these topics if we dug around.

This is an important point.

Are you certain this is not ground water to which they are referring? There are many caverns into which we can dive that have open bodies of water beneath the surface of the Earth. And there are massive fountains of water where entire rivers (well over 50 feet across) are stared by a single spring (Big Springs, MO). It could also be the depths of the oceans. Again, this is speculation, because we do not know exactly what waters these writers were referring to. But we do know that the waters of the deep (whatever, and wherever, they were) were released during the Flood in addition to the waters above.

The NASB says what it says. Just read it:

Genesis 1:6-7, 14, 17 NASB1995
[6] Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.

1. God made the expanse. This separated the waters above the expanse from those below.

[14] Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
[17] God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,

2. And God place the stars in the expanse.

That's it. It doesn't pull any gymnastics about multiple heavens and some disappearing with the flood and...

No. God made the expanse. There is water above the expanse. The stars are then set or placed in the expanse.

The waters above are therefore, above the stars. And those same waters, restrained by the expanse, are later released upon the earth.

The stars are placed or set in the expanse.
The "waters above" are not below the expanse, they are above the expanse.

It could be as you say that God put a shell of water around the outside of the universe and brought some (or all) of that water back to Earth to cause the Flood. It is pure speculation, but it could be that it is true. It is more probable (but still speculation) that it was a shell around the atmosphere of Earth instead of around the entire universe. But either way it doesn't matter. This shell (whether it exists still or not) will not impact the Earth ever again, because God has sworn that He will not cause a global flood ever again, and that the seasons will never cease on the Earth until the Earth is completely destroyed in fire at the end of time.

 

[Job 33:6]

That is an assumption you are making. But it is not necessarily consistent with the world we see around us today. As noted previously, there was no rainfall before the Flood. So the waters above the atmosphere were constrained by God in a way that kept them in the sky, but that man could see through to the sun, moon, and stars (so it wasn't in cloud form as we know them today). But there is no water layer above the Earth (other than the clouds) today, or the space vehicles we have sent back and forth would have encountered it.

The language of "releasing" and "closing" the floodgates is figurative. We do not know if there was still any water in the layer above the Earth or not, but we know it is not still there today (and hasn't been in the last hundred years plus for which we have had measuring instruments and recorded information). There is much speculation that could be done about what amount remained at the end of the Flood, and what function (if any were necessary) caused that remainder to dissipate, but it would be completely useless. We know it is not there now, and we know that it was there before the Flood.

I'll pass on sipping the juice on this one. There was never some giant celestial ocean or something in deep space, that came down with the flood.

We just had this extensive conversation where you've insisted on not over-literalizing the Bible, and here we are having discussions about space oceans.

I'm sorry, that's just ancient Israelite cosmology. The Egyptians believed in the waters above. The Babylonians, Assyrians and Akkadians etc. it's just language that they used to describe the blue sky. It has nothing to do with a shell of space water or anything like thats. It's ancient near east cosmology.

Are you certain this is not ground water to which they are referring? There are many caverns into which we can dive that have open bodies of water beneath the surface of the Earth. And there are massive fountains of water where entire rivers (well over 50 feet across) are stared by a single spring (Big Springs, MO). It could also be the depths of the oceans. Again, this is speculation, because we do not know exactly what waters these writers were referring to. But we do know that the waters of the deep (whatever, and wherever, they were) were released during the Flood in addition to the waters above.

Yes, I'm certain that they aren't referring to groundwater. Groundwater isn't under the earth. Again, ancient artifacts from the ancient near east depict earth as literally being over water, like an ocean. Nothing to do with science, it's just ancient Israelite cosmology.

It could be as you say that God put a shell of water around the outside of the universe and brought some (or all) of that water back to Earth to cause the Flood. It is pure speculation, but it could be that it is true. It is more probable (but still speculation) that it was a shell around the atmosphere of Earth instead of around the entire universe. But either way it doesn't matter. This shell (whether it exists still or not) will not impact the Earth ever again, because God has sworn that He will not cause a global flood ever again, and that the seasons will never cease on the Earth until the Earth is completely destroyed in fire at the end of time.

Alright. I'll take my leave then.

And no, I never said that God put a shell of water outside of the universe. Ancient Israelites didn't know what the universe even is.

And the Bible never says that the waters above went away after the flood. In fact, it says the opposite:

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

As noted above, the "waters above" are referenced later in scripture as well, as still being present. For example:

Psalm 148:4 NASB1995
Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens! Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place FOREVER AND EVER, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

Same with the firmament. It never went anywhere.

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

It's just ancient Israelite cosmology.

All the best.

 

[Diamond72]

Are the northern lights really the ghosts of dead rainbows?

"The northern lights, or auroras, are a remarkable natural light display, a testament to the wonders of our planet. When the Earth's magnetic field interacts with charged particles from the sun, and those particles collide with gases like oxygen and nitrogen in our atmosphere, they create beautiful, shimmering lights. Especially in the polar regions, it's a magnificent show of nature's splendor, a reminder of the marvels that our world offers."

 

[Doug Brents]

"The northern lights, or auroras, are a remarkable natural light display, a testament to the wonders of our planet. When the Earth's magnetic field interacts with charged particles from the sun, and those particles collide with gases like oxygen and nitrogen in our atmosphere, they create beautiful, shimmering lights. Especially in the polar regions, it's a magnificent show of nature's splendor, a reminder of the marvels that our world offers."

I know what the northern lights are; having lived in Alaska for most of my youth and having seen it, and studied it some. The question was rhetorical. The point was that of course the language of that poem is figurative, as is some of the language in Scripture.

 

[Diamond72]

I know what the northern lights are; having lived in Alaska for most of my youth and having seen it, and studied it some. The question was rhetorical. The point was that of course the language of that poem is figurative, as is some of the language in Scripture.

All of the Bible is literal and all of the Bible is symbolic. Some people say the Bible has up to 100 layers of meaning.

 

[Doug Brents]

All of the Bible is literal and all of the Bible is symbolic. Some people say the Bible has up to 100 layers of meaning.

Sure, there are multiple layers of meaning behind much of Scripture, but some is clearly purely figurative. Much of the literal language also has figurative interpretation. But there are some passages that are purely figurative, and have no possible literal interpretation.

 

[Diamond72]

some is clearly purely figurative.

I could use many many words in addition to figurative. Here are a few.

Common Literary Devices and Terms:​

1. Parable: A simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, like those told by Jesus in the Gospels (e.g., The Parable of the Good Samaritan).
2. Metaphor: A figure of speech that implies a comparison between two unlike things (e.g., "I am the vine; you are the branches" - John 15:5).
3. Simile: A comparison using "like" or "as" (e.g., "His voice was like the roar of many waters" - Revelation 1:15).
4. Allegory: A narrative in which characters and events symbolize deeper moral or spiritual meanings (e.g., Paul’s allegory of Sarah and Hagar in Galatians 4:21-31).
5. Hyperbole: Exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally (e.g., "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off" - Matthew 5:30).
6. Prophecy: Messages from God delivered by prophets, often concerning future events (e.g., the prophecies of Isaiah).
7. Psalm: A sacred song or poem, particularly from the Book of Psalms.
8. Proverb: A short, pithy saying expressing a general truth or piece of advice (e.g., The Book of Proverbs).
9. Epistle: A letter, particularly those found in the New Testament (e.g., The Epistles of Paul).
10. Chiasmus: A rhetorical or literary figure in which words or concepts are repeated in reverse order (e.g., "Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted" - Matthew 23:12).

 

[Doug Brents]

I could use many many words in addition to figurative. Here are a few.

Common Literary Devices and Terms:​

1. Parable: A simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, like those told by Jesus in the Gospels (e.g., The Parable of the Good Samaritan).
2. Metaphor: A figure of speech that implies a comparison between two unlike things (e.g., "I am the vine; you are the branches" - John 15:5).
3. Simile: A comparison using "like" or "as" (e.g., "His voice was like the roar of many waters" - Revelation 1:15).
4. Allegory: A narrative in which characters and events symbolize deeper moral or spiritual meanings (e.g., Paul’s allegory of Sarah and Hagar in Galatians 4:21-31).
5. Hyperbole: Exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally (e.g., "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off" - Matthew 5:30).
6. Prophecy: Messages from God delivered by prophets, often concerning future events (e.g., the prophecies of Isaiah).
7. Psalm: A sacred song or poem, particularly from the Book of Psalms.
8. Proverb: A short, pithy saying expressing a general truth or piece of advice (e.g., The Book of Proverbs).
9. Epistle: A letter, particularly those found in the New Testament (e.g., The Epistles of Paul).
10. Chiasmus: A rhetorical or literary figure in which words or concepts are repeated in reverse order (e.g., "Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted" - Matthew 23:12).

What is your point? Much of what is listed is purely figurative in nature and not meant to be taken literally at all. There are many layers of understanding within the figurative language, but literal interpretation is not one of those layers.