Should you use a rod to keep your son in line?

[DrListen]

I was disiplined by spanking and my brother was not.

For me, it was the only way to deter behavior.
With my brother just a look of disappointment is all it took.

We both love our parents for the way they disiplined us. We both turned out 'good' in every sense of the word. The relationships we have within our family are truly textbook happiness. I was never disciplined out of anger or 'beaten'. I was spanked. I would discipline my son or daughter the same way w/o hesitation. Each child is different (like my brother and I). You must learn what is effective with training/teaching a child.

Only the uneducated could believe that you can (with extreem success), reason with a 2-5 year old child. A child is taught limitations through reward & punishment. Mainly through reward and praise.
It is as a child gets older he can truly conceptualize behavior in regards to right and wrong.
This is the time when we sit down and really talk about decisions the child made and why they were wrong.

Anyway, I could go on, but I really think my parents gave me a great example that I can follow.
We never strayed to the left or right.
Always respectful and loved our whole family!!!
Also, I don't think I was ever spanked after 6 or 7 years old... I had learned early on!!!

 

[DrListen]

Good point AnyaMa, I forgot to mention that!!

We have friends (of course).. it seems to us that the ones that fail to correct bad behavior seem to have kids that no one wants to be around... they talk back, throw tantrums, and grow up doing worse.

The kids that are disciplined seemed more well adjusted to life and society.

Even aside from current children; I can easily refer my conclusions to my college mates.
We found exacting parallels to college performance and behavior (I was a graduate Psych major at Northwest University). Now don't ask for z stat scores, but it did hold water.

Now don't bash what I said... I know apples can fall from both sides of the tree... but still the sample was 500 students!

 

[JulySheMustFly]

The kids that are disciplined seemed more well adjusted to life and society.

This is very true. HOWEVER, disciplined does not have to equate to corporal punishment. (not bashing, honest)

 

[Johnnz]

Agreed!!

John
NZ

 

[progressivegal]

This is very true. HOWEVER, disciplined does not have to equate to corporal punishment. (not bashing, honest)

Correct. Study after study links spanking to violent and anti-social behavior (the one thing pretty much all prison inmates have in common is that they were physically punished as children.) IMO, children need discipline, but discipline does NOT mean spanking or hitting, it means teaching with patience and love.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

Only the uneducated could believe that you can (with extreem success), reason with a 2-5 year old child. A child is taught limitations through reward & punishment. Mainly through reward and praise.

That is simply not necessary. Do not cast opinions concerning others education level based on their view and experience on how to raise a child.

 

[progressivegal]

That is simply not necessary. Do not cast opinions concerning others education level based on their view and experience on how to raise a child.

Not to mention that every child is different. And that there can be different ideas about what "reasoning" means.

 

[DrListen]

That is simply not necessary. Do not cast opinions concerning others education level based on their view and experience on how to raise a child.

I didn't mean to offend anyone...
And I also didn't mean to imply that bad parents don't discipline their children... like I said... sometimes children don't need to be spanked.

When I stated: "
Only the uneducated could believe that you can (with extreem success), reason with a 2-5 year old child. could believe that you can (with extreem success), reason with a 2-5 year old child. "

I wasn't refuting anyones statements. I don't think anyone here believes that a 2-5 year old child has the same reasoning capabilities of an adult... do they?
Again, I was pointing the obvious. And if someone here does believe that a 2-5 year old has that ability, I truly am VERY sorry!!!

 

[DrListen]

This is very true. HOWEVER, disciplined does not have to equate to corporal punishment. (not bashing, honest)

Again, like I said... it depends on the child...
to one child you have, spanking may be necessary.. to another it may only take a look or 5 minutes time-out.

One note of the obvious: I hope nobody gets mad at me for saying this:
"but I also feel that it would be stupid to spank if you ever spank when angry. You may take it out on the child and over-do it.
I hope you are not offended by that statement. It's just what I think.

 

[DrListen]

Correct. Study after study links spanking to violent and anti-social behavior (the one thing pretty much all prison inmates have in common is that they were physically punished as children.) IMO, children need discipline, but discipline does NOT mean spanking or hitting, it means teaching with patience and love.

I would like to know what studies you are talking about. I have probably read them or wrote them.

You need to get it right:
Persons in correctional facilities were not disiplined by being "spanked".
Persons in prisons were beaten, raped and molested.
The "studies" you so-called are talking about are NOT about spanking; it is that Violence breeds violence... which we all agree.
That is not EVEN CLOSE to what we are talking about here.... please!!!

And the persons in prisons become the beaters, rapists and molestors.... many studies (that i can provide, mind you) show that!!!
I never said that there wasn't a difference between a spanking not out of anger, but in love and correction and beatings.

If you really want to get it right stop looking at the prisons for examples on how to raise children.
Go to the colleges and churchs, that may be a smarter place to start... I could be wrong...

 

[Adela]

You need to get it right:
Persons in correctional facilities were not disiplined by being "spanked".
Persons in prisons were beaten, raped and molested.
The "studies" you so-called are talking about are NOT about spanking; it is that Violence breeds violence... which we all agree.
That is not EVEN CLOSE to what we are talking about here.... please!!!

While I don't agree with spanking, I do agree with this point. Sure there are plenty of people in prison who were spanked and plenty who weren't. But I think it's irresponsible to claim that they were spanked.
Like DrListen, said probably more like viciously beaten.

Even though I'm against it, I do recognize there is a difference.

 

[progressivegal]

While I don't agree with spanking, I do agree with this point. Sure there are plenty of people in prison who were spanked and plenty who weren't. But I think it's irresponsible to claim that they were spanked.
Like DrListen, said probably more like viciously beaten.

Even though I'm against it, I do recognize there is a difference.

Actually there's not "plenty who aren't" that's the thing. You would seriously be hard pressed to find a convicted criminal who was not subjected to corporal punishment of some kind. Though I will admit that in most cases it's harsh physical punishment, not simply an opened palm swat on a clothed behind.
Bottom line is spanking teaches that hitting someone you love is OK. That physical coercion is the way to get someone to do what one wants, and it rarely gets across the intended message. If someone who is spanked "Turns out OK" it's likely in spite of the spankings, not because of them.
No wonder we live in such a violent society. No wonder we allow capitol punishment and no wonder our murder and crime rates are so high.
In Canada it recently became illegal to:
-use corporal punishment against a child under 2 or over 12
-hit a child with an object
-allow corporal punishment in school
-hit a child in the head or the face.

And it makes me want to vomit that these things are legal in the united states. Why anyone would hit a baby or hit a child with an object is beyond me.



The studies I've read recently were done by Murray Straus, Elizabeth Gershoff, A very recent study where the names of the researches escape me at the moment that connects harsh physical punishment to sexual coercion, and harsh as well as "normal" corporal punishment to dating violence.

Yes, I would rather have a parent hit a child with an open palm on a closed behind than beat them with a belt of stick. Yes Spanking can have immediate short term effects. But there are other methods of discipline that are just as effective, or more so, that do not use violence.
It's difficult for me to speak of this in a purely academic sense I suppose, because it's something I feel so passionately about, but this being a Christian forum I guess I can say, my primary reason for being so anti-spanking is that deep in my soul I know it's wrong. I know Jesus would never hit a child, and I believe that doing so goes against everything he taught. I believe with all of my heart that the idea that an adult is entitled to use physical violence against a child is so innately wrong that I feel like my soul is literally crying out in pain whenever I hear anyone attempt to justify it, especially in the name of God. There is no good reason to spank in my opinion, and hundreds of bad ones. Children are too precious, and too wonderful to risk. I guess in the interest of full disclosure, I should say as well that I was indifferent to corporal punishment, until I witnessed the "legal" beating of a 5 month old baby, my nephew with a WOODEN SPOON. and something inside me snapped. It's like God opened my eyes at that moment and I knew this was wrong and not OK. And I knew that I could not ever hit a child. And I told my husband then and there (it was his sisters husband doing the hitting) that I could never marry him if he thought hitting a child was ever OK (this was before we were married). It just boggles my mind. If someone beat dog with a wooden spoon, people would be outraged. But a baby is ok?
And for the record, I do get the majority of my information, and my beliefs from my faith community (I am a Quaker, and we believe violence is never justified and that hitting a child is always wrong) and the child development professors, sociology professors, and psychology professors as well as pediatricians I've talked to have reiterated that spanking is only effective in the short term, that there are better options available, and that it is best to avoid it. The American Medical Association, and many many other professional organizations condemn corporal punishment as well. I have admitted that my primary reasons for opposing corporal punishment are personal and spiritual, but the looking at the issue from an academic POV has only confirmed my belief that corporal punishment is dangerous and wrong.
"normal" corporal punishment easily escalates into something worse. Sure there are people who were hit (and spanking is hitting), but I doubt they are functional adults because of it. It is more likely that in addition to hitting them, their parents did positive things such as discussing WHY something is wrong, spending quality time with them, and teaching them is addition to the hitting. I certainly believe children can grow up to be functional human being IN SPITE of being hit, but never because of it. Violence in itself never solves anything in the long term. History has shown us that, but

 

[DrListen]

I didn't know if I wanted to laugh or be sad when I read this.
But when I read how poorly concluded the research was; it made me sad.
The only way I can respond is by descript analasys... so here it goes... this may take a while.

"Actually there's not "plenty who aren't" that's the thing. You would seriously be hard pressed to find a convicted criminal who was not subjected to corporal punishment of some kind. Though I will admit that in most cases it's harsh physical punishment, not simply an opened palm swat on a clothed behind."
Close to 95% were violently beaten and neglected. Not "most cases" -all cases. In Alaska's judicial system... since 1972 when study started every inmate was subject to severe violence as a child. NOT "SOME"!

Bottom line is spanking teaches that hitting someone you love is OK. That physical coercion is the way to get someone to do what one wants, and it rarely gets across the intended message.
Spanking teaches that their are consequences to bad behavior. Only in an abusive situation would a child grow up thinking physical coercion is means to and end.

If someone who is spanked "Turns out OK" it's likely in spite of the spankings, not because of them.
I would tend to believe that a loving environment, no matter what the style of discipline (as long as done correctly) is why good children turn out good. We are a product of our environment (look at prisoner stats).

No wonder we live in such a violent society. No wonder we allow capitol punishment and no wonder our murder and crime rates are so high.
To equivocate violence in society to spanking is just incorrect. Your own cited researcher, straus (and another you did not cite: hyman) has concluded that in 1955 a push away from CP has been initated as well as from others in 1989, 1990, 1995. CP has been used by less and less parents in their discipline strategies; yet violent crime continues to go up.

In Canada it recently became illegal to:
-use corporal punishment against a child under 2 or over 12
-hit a child with an object
-allow corporal punishment in school
-hit a child in the head or the face.
- as it should be!! I feel like you don't even read what i write... jeez!

And it makes me want to vomit that these things are legal in the united states. Why anyone would hit a baby or hit a child with an object is beyond me.
.. again.....as it should be!! I know for sure now that you don't read what i write, maybe it is some pent-up feelings you just need to get out!

The studies I've read recently were done by Murray Straus, Elizabeth Gershoff,
Actually Murray Straus is a great professor, I've had the absolute pleasure of meeting him. Elizabeth Gershoff is a prof. I think in Al. or Tx. but her stuff is just regurgitated Straus. I think her only good paper was when she administeredStraus' study in her school... anyway that is just my critique talking...

A very recent study where the names of the researches escape me at the moment that connects harsh physical punishment to sexual coercion, and harsh as well as "normal" corporal punishment to dating violence.
Of course.... I know the "research" and "researchers" you are speaking of (I really do STUDY it). The researcher on harsh physical punishment to sexual coercion is actually performed BY students in Straus's class. Corporal Punishment to dating violence.... by the same!! Straus himself states that the sample (a handful of universities) and the fact that it is done en classe harms ALL validity. Again, I respect Dr. Straus, but please... before drawing conclusions, don't listen to 60 minutes... read some articles! I know that I know he would like for you to do that!!

 

[DrListen]

Yes, I would rather have a parent hit a child with an open palm on a closed behind than beat them with a belt of stick. Yes Spanking can have immediate short term effects. Very different: Violence against a child and spanking as means of loving correction... please!!

But there are other methods of discipline that are just as effective, or more so, that do not use violence.
I agree it is better to use other methods... use best method for the child... I believe it is child specific... MANY children do not need spankings.... ( READ MY POSTS!! )

It's difficult for me to speak of this in a purely academic sense I suppose, because it's something I feel so passionately about, but this being a Christian forum I guess I can say, my primary reason for being so anti-spanking is that deep in my soul I know it's wrong. I know Jesus would never hit a child, and I believe that doing so goes against everything he taught. I believe with all of my heart that the idea that an adult is entitled to use physical violence against a child is so innately wrong that I feel like my soul is literally crying out in pain whenever I hear anyone attempt to justify it, especially in the name of God. There is no good reason to spank in my opinion, and hundreds of bad ones.
Your view of Jesus should be of a loving Christ that died for us. But he was not a push-over. He was never in the place to disciplin a child. He did drive out the money changers. The Greek word used for 'drive' implies he used force. But I think it is good that you have a more "tender" view of Christ is good. I believe he disciplines those he loves as he says in the Bible. But an angel can't appear out of no where and spank kids... that would be dumb. So God, as we get older uses other methods to straighten our path. He uses many methods. But again... I don't think anyone spankes their 30-50 year old kids!! That would be kind of dumb too??

Children are too precious, and too wonderful to risk. I guess in the interest of full disclosure, I should say as well that I was indifferent to corporal punishment, until I witnessed the "legal" beating of a 5 month old baby, my nephew with a WOODEN SPOON. and something inside me snapped. It's like God opened my eyes at that moment and I knew this was wrong and not OK. And I knew that I could not ever hit a child. And I told my husband then and there (it was his sisters husband doing the hitting) that I could never marry him if he thought hitting a child was ever OK (this was before we were married). It just boggles my mind. If someone beat dog with a wooden spoon, people would be outraged. But a baby is ok?
Agreed!! Your sisters husband belongs in jail. After jail (aka: spankings for adults) he needs intensive therapy. He should NEVER spank a child because he can't, he only knows how to be violent. Again!!! READ MY POSTS!!!

And for the record, I do get the majority of my information, and my beliefs from my faith community (I am a Quaker, and we believe violence is never justified and that hitting a child is always wrong) and the child development professors, sociology professors, and psychology professors as well as pediatricians I've talked to have reiterated that spanking is only effective in the short term, that there are better options available, and that it is best to avoid it.
There are more evidences of the opposite that are true.

The American Medical Association, and many many other professional organizations condemn corporal punishment as well. I have admitted that my primary reasons for opposing corporal punishment are personal and spiritual, but the looking at the issue from an academic POV has only confirmed my belief that corporal punishment is dangerous and wrong.
This is just plain wrong. You are misinformed. I am unwilling to spend time on this point because it is either a lie or misinformation via 60 minutes or some website with no data to back it up.

As a side note. I am truly sorry for what you witnessed. I (as you can see in my previous post) figured that something happened for you to be so judgemental (I'm good at what I do!! ). But for that all I can say is that just because some people are alcoholics, doesn't make wine drinking bad. Poor analogy because it is our most precious childrens lives at stake. But still there ARE those that choose to spank and do it RIGHT!! I hope your sisters husband gets arrested and I hope you can look at this a little differently. I think you cannot see past your hurt to see things the way it can be.

Sincerely,
Doc

 

[die2live]

But still there ARE those that choose to spank and do it RIGHT!!

Like my parents?

If you're in for a long read:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=43446135&postcount=11

That is, at the very least, is a valid potential result of spanking done "right."

 

[DrListen]

Like my parents?

If you're in for a long read:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=43446135&postcount=11

That is, at the very least, is a valid potential result of spanking done "right."

Answer to your question: NO, Not like your parents!!

The answer to the "correct" way of spanking would be more like my parents did in raising us.

It is obvious that your scars run deep and I am SURE your parents did NOT discipline you in a loving, caring way (I read your post very carefully, twice).

HERE IS PART OF WHAT YOU WROTE:
What are the negative side effects? I will mention just a few here. These are the side effects that I have recognized in myself from researching the different kinds of effects. This is, by no means, a complete list:

Low self-esteem
Chronic shyness
BDSM
Unwillingness to trust
Bitterness toward my parents (this I have mostly overcome)
Fear of revealing mistakes, even to loving sources

Anger and violence is another well-known side effect, but thankfully, I have not had to deal with that one.


Everything you wrote here, according to DSM-IV, is the exact outcome when an IP/individual is abused and/or neglected. Abuse and Neglect is NOT what we are discussing.
You are putting your own individual experiences you had with your parents into this. It would be more appropriate for you to look at discipline when it is applied correctly. The only way to do that is to look at studies performed with a large enough sample with valid scores assesed to the said study.

Again... it's the alcoholic talking saying wine should be illegal!!

I hate abuse, I hate neglect, I hate violence. I have worked with child arsonist in juvenille detention centers (Childrens-Firestarters). I have first-hand experience with the abuse that can trigger behaviours inexplicible to normal child development.... That being said. This would be comparing apples and automobiles.

Enough said!!

Doc

 

[DrListen]

I can't reply unless someone has an arguement that is valid, has substance, truth and based on facts.

I find it emotionally tiresome (and time consuming) defending logic in the presence of deep emotion.
It does no good for the reader to open up childhood wounds in this setting.

If we were able to 'chat' through this; it would be different. This forum is different than a clinical setting. I worry about persons with deep hurts with no outlet of expression that is one-on-one. In this forum; nobody will change their view on this subject. Except in extreem open-mindedness would someone consider the arguements of logic given. Emotion is stronger than logic. I feel for the countless people that were abused and neglected and I wish it wasn't an issue. Unfortunatly, it is a part of our broken society.
I just hope as the neglected and abused heal; they would look at things with an open mind.

Sincerely,
Doc

 

[die2live]

Answer to your question: NO, Not like your parents!!

The answer to the "correct" way of spanking would be more like my parents did in raising us.

It is obvious that your scars run deep and I am SURE your parents did NOT discipline you in a loving, caring way (I read your post very carefully, twice).

HERE IS PART OF WHAT YOU WROTE:
What are the negative side effects? I will mention just a few here. These are the side effects that I have recognized in myself from researching the different kinds of effects. This is, by no means, a complete list:

Low self-esteem
Chronic shyness
BDSM
Unwillingness to trust
Bitterness toward my parents (this I have mostly overcome)
Fear of revealing mistakes, even to loving sources

Anger and violence is another well-known side effect, but thankfully, I have not had to deal with that one.


Everything you wrote here, according to DSM-IV, is the exact outcome when an IP/individual is abused and/or neglected. Abuse and Neglect is NOT what we are discussing.
You are putting your own individual experiences you had with your parents into this. It would be more appropriate for you to look at discipline when it is applied correctly. The only way to do that is to look at studies performed with a large enough sample with valid scores assesed to the said study.

Again... it's the alcoholic talking saying wine should be illegal!!

I hate abuse, I hate neglect, I hate violence. I have worked with child arsonist in juvenille detention centers (Childrens-Firestarters). I have first-hand experience with the abuse that can trigger behaviours inexplicible to normal child development.... That being said. This would be comparing apples and automobiles.

Enough said!!

Doc

But that's just it . . . my parents were/are not abusive or neglectful. For one, if they were, then I highly doubt that I would be the only one of their five children to have suffered as I have. All five of us were all treated the same and I think the rates for abused children are much higher than 20%. For another, my parents punished us exactly how all the discipline experts who promote spanking say to. To the letter. For another, aside from their choice to spank, I really admire their parenting decisions. All five of us are now happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult and teenage Christians. We all have good relationships with our parents. And finally, if I had been abused or neglected, I highly doubt I could have come as I have on my own. I have never told anyone in real life about my issues resulting from spanking; I have resolved them (or am in the process of resolving them, with a very positive self-prognosis) with the help of God and God alone. That's not to say that God wouldn't be enough anyway, but most kids who are abused or neglected need to go through a lot of counseling before they get to where I am now.

For the record, I am not equating spanking with abuse. Obviously, as I pointed out above, there are many difference between the two. Spanking with love will have detrimental effects far less often than abuse (hence, only I experienced such effects rather than I and all four of my siblings). Spanking with love will usually be accompanied by many other good parenting tactics, whereas abuse will not. In short, spanking with love rather than abusing will cut the chances of long-term issues down drastically. It just won't eliminate them completely. And since there is no way of knowing which kids will and which kids won't react badly to it in the long-run, it's just not worth the risk.

I'm not trying to use my experience as proof of the detrimental effects of spanking in love. I'm just using it as an example. I'm not trying to argue from emotion; honestly, I'm not emotional about this subject anymore. I was, a few months ago when I first realized the issues I had. But now that I am well on my way to recovery, I am better able to look at the issue rationally. And reason tells me that, even if the connection between spanking and its detrimental effects couldn't be proven, the fact that it's suspected so strongly makes it simply not worth the risk. Especially considering that there's a plethora of other discipline tools that can be just as effective.

I would also add that before I recognized the effect that spanking had on me, I was grateful to my parents for keeping me well-disciplined and fully intended to be a spanking parent myself one day. It was in one of these threads where someone described the effects of spanking (or maybe it was in an article someone gave a link to; I don't remember), that I, with much bewilderment, realized that that was exactly what I was going through. I knew I had issues before, I had just never linked them to spanking. At the time I did not want to believe it (now it's a relief to know what went wrong, but at the time it was very disconcerting). But I could not logically ignore such a clear connection. Obviously, my experience will not be convincing to any of you, as you don't even know me. I just thought that in the interest of full disclosure, you all should realize how I came to this conclusion and that it was not based on emotion. My emotions told me to ignore logic. Yes, it's a conclusion I came to in a deeply personal way that I probably would not have come to apart from personal experience, but that doesn't make it an emotional decision devoid of all logic.

Now, this is like the fourth thread about spanking that I've engaged in within the last four months and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. I've said all I can say; nothing else will add to the discussion, especially now that I've been labeled as an emotional arguer with deep-seated issues that blind me to all logic. If you're interested in hearing everything I have to say on the subject (and I don't have much to add to what I've already said) then utilize the find all posts in my profile and you can easily do that. For now, unless I can think of something else that needs to be said, I will respectfully depart from this conversation.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

Again, like I said... it depends on the child...
to one child you have, spanking may be necessary.. to another it may only take a look or 5 minutes time-out.

One note of the obvious: I hope nobody gets mad at me for saying this:
"but I also feel that it would be stupid to spank if you ever spank when angry. You may take it out on the child and over-do it.
I hope you are not offended by that statement. It's just what I think.

I wasn't offended by anything that you've said just felt that words like uneducated really border on name calling and are not productive to fair and respectful discussion.

All in all when it comes to spanking you have to really know yourself and your child in order for spanking to not become a sin in anger or exasperating your child instead of disciplining them. It isn't a risk I'm willing to take. I do discipline my children, rather effectively using many other methods. Just so there isn't any confusion to make people think that I'm one of those permissive types.

 

[k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe]

I've appreciated reading the dialogue the last few pages. "Thanks" to those involved!