Should you use a rod to keep your son in line?

[J0hnSm1th]

I think this principle from Proverbs does apply today. I also believe that the intent of those passages, both today and back in the “quaint” old days, was metaphorical.

I believe the rod symbolizes discipline, and do not think that discipline = corporal punishment.

We mustnt over spiritualize such passages. Proverbs were written by men; men (such as Solomon) who weren't prophets primarily. The passage doesn't say "the Lord says". Its just someone's opinion. In addition, the passage was written in ancient days by people from a violent primitive culture. Violence was the norm. So i think yes, the author did mean that we should belt our children.

That being said, i think corporal punishment has some value in rare specific cases. It should only be used when the child responds well to it and it should be used sparingly. Spanking some kids just doesnt work. They either dig their heals in, panic, or take it as a personal insult. For an older child, for instance, spanking can be shameful and psychologically damaging. If they are mature enough to reason with, then other punishments would be more effective.

 

[lin1235]

If Proverbs is the Word of God then why shouldn't it be valid for today? God chastens His people out of love, thereby setting earthly parents an example.

If the government makes laws to outlaw spanking, then according to the Scriptures do we obey God or man?

If the rod spoken of in Proverbs was metaphorical, what was the use to tell the parent that the child would not die from using the rod on him and not to spare for his crying.

The so called childraising experts would say that spanking teaches a child violence. Strange that young folks who have been raised in such a non violent atmosphere nevertheless turn out so violent that they kill thier peers or their parents.

I believe the Bible instructs parents to use the rod not out of anger but out of principle. The parent needs to discipline himself first before he can correctly discipline a child. Nor should a child be spanked for trifles but for rebellion and outright disobedience.

Well the Bible also says to stone a child for disobedience, to kill a farmer for planting different crops side by side, and so on. I do not believe we are supposed to apply Old Testament punishments as Jesus has set us free from the old law.

 

[Redguard]

So, in Psalms, when David sings "Thy rod and thy staff, they COMFORT me", what's he referring to?

 

[clycleader]

Good point, Red. I'd say that if I spanked my son, he would not say that I was comforting him at all!
Someone mentions that they believe that a child does not have cognitive skills until they are several years old. I find this to be false in both my personal life as well as my work. Children have cognitive reasoning at a relatively early age. For example, a child who can assemble a simple puzzle or put the block into the correct slot is using cognitivie reasoning. One that can connect cause and effect are using cognitive reasoning skills. My son knows that when he hits or if he chooses to throw his toys that this is wrong. Hitting for example he gets a time out. Along with a reminder and can process through what other choices he can make the next time.

 

[progressivegal]

Good point, Red. I'd say that if I spanked my son, he would not say that I was comforting him at all!
Someone mentions that they believe that a child does not have cognitive skills until they are several years old. I find this to be false in both my personal life as well as my work. Children have cognitive reasoning at a relatively early age. For example, a child who can assemble a simple puzzle or put the block into the correct slot is using cognitivie reasoning. One that can connect cause and effect are using cognitive reasoning skills. My son knows that when he hits or if he chooses to throw his toys that this is wrong. Hitting for example he gets a time out. Along with a reminder and can process through what other choices he can make the next time.

My experience working with children has brought me to the same conclusion.

 

[LogosRhema]

My dad's 22 worked on me well... *looks schizoly around* And I turn out... fine.

They took the belt to my butt, honestly, I'm glad they did... I didn't do what they didn't want me to do out of cause and effect. Put an understanding of right and wrong and consequences of both.

 

[progressivegal]

I'm actually doing a paper on how corporal punishment leads to anti-social behavior. I would definitely encourage looking into the research done by Murray Straus, it's fascinating.

 

[k2svpete]

My experience working with children has brought me to the same conclusion.

And when reasoning with them doesn't work? Apart from the fact that I do not agree with young children having the ability to connect cause and effect.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I don't really believe in spanking.It's seems like a discipline tool that's never worked for me or anyone I know.I don't believe in telling parents it's wrong to spank there kids.For some people it might work out for them .I read somewhere that Rod is Authority.So Spare the Rod spoil the child may actually really mean Spare the Authority spoil the child.That would make more since too me.

 

[progressivegal]

And when reasoning with them doesn't work? Apart from the fact that I do not agree with young children having the ability to connect cause and effect.

I think it depends on the situation. Usually a change of activity does the trick if the kids/kid are getting restless. If they're fighting/annoying each other/etc., separating them almost always solves the problem. I've also found positive reenforcement works AMAZINGLY.
If one of my kids is behaving well, listening, answering questions, etc. I will vocally praise them for it. This makes the others follow suit.
And though I'm sure this would be considered "reasoning", I use rewards like stickers or when I'm teaching dance a simple "We need to finish our plies so we can have time for leaps/splits/whatever this particular class loves".
I also try to focus on what's important and have learned what types of things I can just let go.
My work with kids has involved tutoring, and teaching yoga, but mostly teaching dance classes. Of course we would never be allowed to use any physical violence towards the children, but dance teachers can yell a lot. Mine sure did growing up. In fact the teacher training program I went through had me apprentice with someone who yelled constantly. So that's how I taught when I fist started teaching. I yelled all the time because I thought it would "keep them in line" and "make them listen to me". and it had the opposite effect. They were afraid of me sometimes, but they never respected me.
It wasn't until I went through several adult yoga trainings that I learned about positive teaching methods, and they work beautifully with children. My top priority isn't that they do everything perfect, but that they feel good about themselves, know that their teacher likes them and cares about them, and that they get some exercise and have fun. And they actually end up learning and retaining more this way. It's better for me and better for the children I teach.

Studies show that hitting and yelling work in the short term but that in the long term the effects are extremely negative, and that statistically children who are hit behave worse than those who are not. Non-violent discipline takes more effort and patience but it is well worth it in the long term.

 

[Adela]

And when reasoning with them doesn't work? Apart from the fact that I do not agree with young children having the ability to connect cause and effect.

So then, according to your logic hitting wouldn't work either, would it? How would they equate misbehavior (cause) to hitting (effect)?

 

[EbonNelumbo]

Teach your kid physical punishment when they misbehave and they will follow the same pattern.

I do not, in any form, condone the passage in the way that many people interpret it as. If we hit one another as adults, we get into trouble, hitting small innocent ones should be even worse. Strongly biased on this subject, for what its worth.

 

[IronManMatt]

So, in Psalms, when David sings "Thy rod and thy staff, they COMFORT me", what's he referring to?

David is saying that he is comforted by God's discipline and His protection. The rod is discipline and the staff is protection. One who is not willing to properly discipline a subordinate is not loving his/her subordinate. Read Hebrews 12 for information on God's discipline. Here is one passage:6"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he reciveth"

To chasten means corporal punishment. To scourge is to whip for punishment.

 

[Johnnz]

The root word of both discipline and disciple refers to learning, not punishment. Its strange how we seem to jump onto the punishment aspect before the learning one.

We can also ask "is God's prime relationship with us based on love or punishment? Is he a patient, forbearing God or an angry God predisposed to judgment and fault finding?

John
NZ

 

[JulySheMustFly]

We can also ask "is God's prime relationship with us based on love or punishment? Is he a patient, forbearing God or an angry God predisposed to judgment and fault finding?

I wonder how much a person's experience with their own parents colors whether they see God as having a relationship forged primarily of love and grace or because we need punishment and correction.

 

[Adela]

To chasten means corporal punishment. To scourge is to whip for punishment.

Chasten does not have to mean to hit. It can also mean to correct. If that were the only way to use the word how would disabled people chasten their children?

I just don't understand why some people are so excited to hit their children. Why not wait until you actually have them and know their personalities before you get sold on hitting them. Give them a chance.

 

[IronManMatt]

The root word of both discipline and disciple refers to learning, not punishment. Its strange how we seem to jump onto the punishment aspect before the learning one.

Punishment is part of the learning process. Punishment as part of discipline is also a great behavior modifier. You might know that something is wrong but if you do that thing all the time and never receive negative consequences then most people are more likely to continue in that wrong behavior and latter down the road something really bad might happen. We all know that speeding is wrong. However if there were no cops on the roads to issue tickets would you speed more? I think everyone, even the good law biting ones would speed more often if they knew there was no chance of getting a ticket. But latter down the road (pun intended) you might end up dieing because you were driving too fast and there was no one loved you enough to issue punishment.


We can also ask "is God's prime relationship with us based on love or punishment? Is he a patient, forbearing God or an angry God predisposed to judgment and fault finding?

God said that He disciplines those He loves. Punishment is a part of discipline. If God did not love us then when we messed up He would immediately cast us into hell. However God loves us so when we are wrong He disciplines us and part of that is punishment. We should do no less for those that God gave us authority over.

Chasten does not have to mean to hit. It can also mean to correct. If that were the only way to use the word how would disabled people chasten their children?

That’s true, but the definition of chasten does include using physical pain as a means of correction.

 

[Johnnz]

God, with all his issues with Israel, pleaded with them through the prophets for almost three centuries before they were conquered. The 'heavy hand' was very much a last resort.

It's been around 2000 very troubled, sinful years since Calvary, yet Jesus has not returned in judgment, fulfilling what peter wrote about God's patience and not being willing to jump in and mete out final desserts.

Shouldn't we show something of that forbearance and mercy too?

John
NZ

 

[IronManMatt]

Maybe I'm missing where the definition of chasten is the use of "physical pain" to correct somebody. It can include it, yes, but the definition of the term doesn't mean it must use pain.

Its in your own definition:
chas·ten //
–verb (used with object) 1.to inflict suffering upon for purposes of moral improvement; chastise. 2.to restrain; subdue: Age has chastened his violent temper. 3.to make chaste in style.
chas·ten

I already mentioned in my previous post that I agree that chasten does not exclusively mean to use physical pain to teach. That is only a part of it.

God, with all his issues with Israel, pleaded with them through the prophets for almost three centuries before they were conquered. The 'heavy hand' was very much a last resort.

It's been around 2000 very troubled, sinful years since Calvary, yet Jesus has not returned in judgment, fulfilling what peter wrote about God's patience and not being willing to jump in and mete out final desserts.

Shouldn't we show something of that forbearance and mercy too?

Final judgment is different from discipline. God disciplined Israel throughout it existence. The OT is filled of history of the people disobeying and the nation weakening and the people obeying and the nation excelling. Likewise in Hebrews 12 God explains that He disciplines all those He loves. God’s discipline is part of His mercy. God disciplines us to refine us and mold us into His image. Final judgment is different then discipline.

 

[AnyaMa]

To answer the original post - Spanking is still quite valid when used correctly. I prefer to discuss this topic in person, where I can see how well behaved (Or not!) the other persons children are. It is very insightful