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Why even try when our words get twisted into totally illogical things? Confuse 'em into believing!
Things are getting really ugly over here. You and 2 ducklow have been able to hang in there but I'm no longer interested in getting slammed by Christians apologist. I am not Christian and refuse to allow Christians to impose there dogmas on myself and others.
The existence of Christianity is found in 325 AD and the First Nicene Council. Not so for Judaism which is far older then that, and it's history is found all through the Torah and the prophets.
Jews have never engaged in worshiping a Trinitarian deity the Babylonians and Egyptians did.
The followers of Yeshua were not Christians as we know them today and neither were any of the New Testament authors.
Christians have taken the title of being Christians for themselves, as far as I'm concern they can have it.
Our Apostle of grace was a practicing pharisee not a Christian Acts 23:
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Not generalizing for i know there [are] a lot of non-condemning and just Christians, it is those Christians who base [their] salvation on belief in a dogma that it's existence is found in the mid third and fourth century.
These people that imposed those dogmas were not the original Messianic believerthat existed in Shaul's days. If the Nicene Council determines who is Christian and who is not, then i will never consider myself Christian but simply a Messianic believer, a believer in my Jewish Mashiyach not a Greek one.
confuse um, condemn um to hell if they don't beleive trinity, and attack their character. yep?!?!?!.,:;&? !@#$%^&*()?!Why even try when our words get twisted into totally illogical things? Confuse 'em into believing!
Don't you find it somewhat humorous though when people flip out over doctrine? ah but maybe it's just me.I've decided to stop feeding the bear.
Have you ever spent much time in the Messianic forum? It's very nice over there. There's a debate forum and everything, though I don't think trinity is up for debate there.Hi Kris, can you provide us with the link to that section? I don't know my way very well around CF accept for this section and the theology one! I'm under the assumption that i can't post anything there for i am not a woman. Is the issue being debated? Perhaps it's just a fellowship thread with no debating permitted.
Shalom!
Isn't it terrible how they misquote people purposely. This is what i call dishonesty, what do you think???Don't you find it somewhat humorous though when people flip out over doctrine? ah but maybe it's just me.
I googled this threads title and found out that JW"s have booklet with this title. Imagine that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBAUIx8Cmiwcal.
I don't have the booklet so I don't know if he misquoted anything or not. What I noticed was that he did not counter any of the reasons given in the book for rejecting the Trinity, but rather attacked other things unrelated to trinity that the person quoted believes.Isn't it terrible how they misquote people purposely. This is what i call dishonesty, what do you think???
Actually i do agree with you. The man does side step many issues. Yet he accurately points out that many scholars are being misrepresented. Regardless of what the scholar may believe or not, it is dishonest to quote whats convenient to a religious group whilst avoiding the rest of the context. The Watch Tower Society is known for Misrepresenting Scholars. Even many Christian Scholars have been misrepresented by this group of individuals so it doesn't surprise me that liberals and unitarian scholars are also being misrepresented. Dr. Julius R. Mantey is one of those Scholars that was misrepresented and if I'm not mistaken he was the one that wrote a letter to the Watch Tower threatening that he was going to sue them if they didn't quote what he said in context. What a shameful group of individuals these leaders of the Jehovah's Witness Society are. Anyways, i did not mean to attack you by saying that the Watch Tower has been dishonest in taking these people out of context. If I've offended you in anyway please forgive me! If you want to retain that against me it is your discretion.I don't have the booklet so I don't know if he misquoted anything or not. What I noticed was that he did not counter any of the reasons given in the book for rejecting the Trinity, but rather attacked other things unrelated to trinity that the person quoted believes.
such as what kind of person was being quoted, or what does that person believe about something else.
He said some of the scholars quoted are liberals and would not be acceptable to trinitarian christians. Nothing about the meat of the booklet, things such as Trinity is pagan in origin, he deftly sidesteped that issue for example and concentrated on what the author believed about other unrelated things, something like that. Now I know that many Trinitarian scholars, such as Bruce Metzger, are liberals but that wouldn't stop this same quy from quoting them , I"m sure. Many trinitarian scholars say things like the JW scholars he quoted say, such as the book of John is greek philosophy or some such things. In short he evaded the issue and put up a smoke screen that had nothing to do with the topic. Very clever, very typical.
But I think I know where you are coming from, in as much as you have in the past repeatedly accused me of being as you put it "100 percent dishonest". The way I see it if I don't recall from memory exactly word for word what some one said, then I in your eyes amd 100 percent dishonest. If I put in my own words what you say means to me, then I am in your eyes 100 percent dishonest. I have seen you do this with several others. Yet I have also seen you do the very same thing, put in your own words what you think what someone said means, or recall from memeory the jest of what someone said, and sometimes get it wrong. yet you never accuse yourself of being 100 percent dishonest, just others. I suspect this is what you are refering to with the guy on the video.
I think i will start posting there. I haven't posted anything there for quite a while.Have you ever spent much time in the Messianic forum? It's very nice over there. There's a debate forum and everything, though I don't think trinity is up for debate there.
hahahaha, Isaiah never favors your Trinitarian dogma. I don't shape idols with hammers and forge it with the might of my arm, do you? The rest of your post is so utterly nonsensical that it is pointless to respond in detail for you will continue skip roping my tough questions. Either you deal with them and provide a logical and through response without personal attacks; or take a walk in your neighborhood and borrow some argument from some other Christian, for all you have proven to me is that you are not only lacking arguments, but are completely incapable of addressing them, and you expect me and others to accept such philosophy as inspired works. Start by the word (distinct) and it's meaning as I've provided on several occasions which you've conveniently ignored. As far as i know, you are incapable of following a logical progression in a discussion. Though i do agree with you on some points you make, perhaps you may never know in what points do i agree with you because you are so closed minded that you can't see passed that veil of religious hatred towards those who challenge your Dogma.Simonline said:If you believe that YHWH is Mono-Personal in Nature (i.e. Unitarian) then you don't believe in the Biblical YHWH as He has revealed Himself through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. Instead, you are a Jewish idolator, preferring to believe in a philosophical/theological intellectual construct (and therefore an idol) of your own making. As the Tanakh declares, that 'god' CANNOT save you (Isa.43:10-13; 44:6-23).
Simonline.
Quoting something out of context doesn't necessarily mean that the quote misrepresents anything, although it can. If I say,Actually i do agree with you. The man does side step many issues. Yet he accurately points out that many scholars are being misrepresented. Regardless of what the scholar may believe or not, it is dishonest to quote whats convenient to a religious group whilst avoiding the rest of the context. The Watch Tower Society is known for Misrepresenting Scholars. Even many Christian Scholars have been misrepresented by this group of individuals so it doesn't surprise me that liberals and unitarian scholars are also being misrepresented. Dr. Julius R. Mantey is one of those Scholars that was misrepresented and if I'm not mistaken he was the one that wrote a letter to the Watch Tower threatening that he was going to sue them if they didn't quote what he said in context. What a shameful group of individuals these leaders of the Jehovah's Witness Society are. Anyways, i did not mean to attack you by saying that the Watch Tower has been dishonest in taking these people out of context. If I've offended you in anyway please forgive me! If you want to retain that against me it is your discretion.
well you can always throw your hard drive in a bon fire, that will delete it.No one in years, in any thread, in any forum, tihs,
has changed their mind. No seekers. No searchers for truth. Just for converts or ?
.
No one has repented, turned to Yahweh for the truth, for life, away from sin and selfishness.
The only thing that has happened , apparently, is that the government has gathered information about peoples thought life, or saysing, or prejudices, or faith
to use against them later in a court of law.
(nothing is ever deleted permanently
These are the words to one of those melancolic country and western songs right?yeshua said:- it is still available for the gov)
oy
Just a figure of speech. ONe can't take everything literally in the b ible. The bible wasn't written like a legal document, which unfortunately is how many try and read it at times and thus get very confused trying to take everything literally. The men saw a manifestation of God, thus that is how they saw God face to face, not that they literally saw God's spiritual face, for spirits don/t have faces, or brains, or arms, or legs of hair, God just manifested to them in a human form is all.Actually, you bring out one thing that I have problems with as far a Trinitarian beliefs. You see, I don't subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity. And, I also have problems reconciling various references in the OT that indicate that men saw Elohim face to face or that they wrestled with Him.
God is a spirit and Jesus is a man . so if jesus is divine and human then he is a spirit being and a physical human being. spirits are not flesh and blood. you can't be both a spirit and a human being with flesh and blood at the same time anymore than a Ford automobile can be the sky and a ford automobile at the same time. one or the other but not both. point of logic.clmanning said:You see I wholeheartedly believe that Yeshua is totally divine and totally human.
you are confused because you have too many gods. there is only one God, YHWH also called God the Father, Saying that Jesus is God and God the Father is God results in 2 gods, thus for that reason alone, JEsus cannot be god. Everyone that trys and make Jesus God is going to have confusion. Confusion disappears when you only have one God, The Father. When God the Father is your only God, there is no confusion. As is the case with me. You are just scared to even consider that Jesus isn't god because Christians have been telling everyone for centuries that you are doomed to hell if you don't believe that Jesus is God, in spite of the fact that no scripture says Jesus is god. People only inteprret certain scriptures to mean that.clmanning said:But, I cannot equate Him with the Father because even Yeshua stated that the Father was greater than He. [Jn 14:28] If the Father is greater, how can they be the same?
Some of my opinions are soley based on how I can understand things. True, my understanding is extremely limited when trying to understand the nature and character of God.
you are confused because you have too many gods. /quote]
I think you're preaching to the choir. He said he DOESN'T buy the concept of the trinity.
He said he believes that Jesus is divine and human. He also believes that God the Father is God. that makes 2 gods. Also he stated that he doesn't understand the nature of god. That is trinitarian nonsense that he has imbibed. Trinitarians are the ones who say the nature of God is not understandable. because they equate the nature of God with their contradictory, nonsenseical, illogical, confusing trinity doctrine that is also full of misnomrers. So they have him confused with all that cofusion. It is trin itaraians who say God has two NATURES, not the bible, It is trinitarians who say a nature is God and a nature is a man, which of course is nonsense. So he obviously has imbibed much trinitarian vernacular and beliefs, probably unbeknownst to him.you are confused because you have too many gods. /quote]
I think you're preaching to the choir. He said he DOESN'T buy the concept of the trinity.
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