Should you believe in the trinity II

[2ducklow]

Oh, I don't know. That's a bit harsh. The church teaches trinity. If it isn't there already, it's imprinted on the brain in the 8th grade in confirmation classes, the age that just precedes the questioning of authority. I remember it well. I DID question authority. I didn't understand back then and I asked questions and for this was not allowed to come back to confirmation class! And I was a really good kid!

We're taught to just have faith and that it's wrong to believe otherwise. It takes a very strong person to stand up to such dogma. (Or stubborness in my case. )

I don't consider that i was being harsh, Frank maybe.
Most people just believe it and know next to nothing about it, true. They don't understand it , they just accept it, and don't try to understand it or study it because it is so confusing, and it gets nowhere, so they just accept. Every explanation of trinity is totally irrational, nonsenseical, contradictory, and it is when people, even highly intelligent people make thes irrational , nonsensical , contradictory statements, that it boggles my mind that they can utter such nonsense with a straight face. Like "3 are one" or make a list of 3 different gods and get highly upset if you say they have 3 gods. so they call these 3 beings persons of God then they have no trouble adding them up correctly to 3, but if they call each of the same individuals God, then they add up to one. JUst boggles my mind that thinking people can say such things.

 

[virtualgirl]

Ducklow,

May I ask what kind of church you attend?

 

[2ducklow]

Ducklow,

May I ask what kind of church you attend?

an independant oneness pentecostal church

 

[Kris10leigh]

Ducklow,

May I ask what kind of church you attend?

Were you just curious? I was curious too, but also what a person a person attends doesn't necessarily mean their belifs fit that doctrine. I attend a Methodist church myself but am a non-trinitarian Messianic believer. I'm pretty much out there in my own little world.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

an independant oneness pentecostal church

Surely doesn't seem like it. I would have never thought you were oneness pentecostal, not even independent. Well, it doesn't surprise me, there are many groups of Sabbath keeping Pentecostals in Christianity, called Seventh day pentecostals! Pretty cool, thanks!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Were you just curious? I was curious too, but also what a person a person attends doesn't necessarily mean their belifs fit that doctrine. I attend a Methodist church myself but am a non-trinitarian Messianic believer. I'm pretty much out there in my own little world.

No Sis, you're not out there in your own little world.
Abba Elohim has you covered head to toe, forward and backward, right and left !
..
..
As for the rest, the simplest thing to do, if any want to know the truth, is to learn Hebrew.

 

[Kris10leigh]

..
As for the rest, the simplest thing to do, if any want to know the truth, is to learn Hebrew.

My next project. I'd like to start by learning to pronounce it!

 

[LUNABELLA]

Ducklow,

May I ask what kind of church you attend?

HELLO VIRTUAL GIRL. I HAVE A QUESTION. I KNOW YOU ARE CHRISTIAN BECAUSE OF YOUR ICON. MY HUSBAND DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY BUT HE DOES BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, SINCE THE QUESTIONS THAT HE ASKS IN CHALLANGING THE TRINITY ARE VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ADDRESS WHEN CONFRONTING HIM. LAST WEEK WE CONGRAGATED IN THE SYNAGOUGE HIS PARENTS ATTEND AND THE RABBI THAT WAS PREACHING MADE COMMENTS ON THE TRINITY. I LOOKED AT HIM AND HE PUT THIS FACE AS IF HE WAS WILLING TO CONFRONT THAT RABBI RIGHT THERE AND THEN. BEFORE HE EVEN OPENED HIS MOUTH I FORBADE HIM FROM DISTURBING. THOUGH HE TOLD ME HE WAS NOT GOING TO DO ANY,THING, I KNOW HOW CONFRONTATIONAL MY HUSBAND IS WHEN IT COMES TO DEBATING THEOLOGICAL POINTS. EVEN THOUGH I ADMITE HE HAS A LOT OF PATIENTS. I HATE TO DEBATE UNLIKE MY HUSBAND SO IM NOT GOING TO DEBATE THEOLOGY. I ONLY LIKE TO DEBATE MY HUSBAND AND THATS IT . WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE TRINITY AND HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAINE IT? A LADY IN THE SYNAGOUGE LAST WEEK TOLD MY HUSBAND IN SPANISH ABOUT THE OUTER PART OF THE EGG THE WHITE AND THE YOLK WHICH ONLY MAKES ONE EGG. MY HUSBAND IN RESPONSE SAID THAT THE WHITE IS NOT THE YOLK, NOR IS THE OUTER PART I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT IN ENGLISH THE YOLK NOR THE WHITE, SO THAT MEANS THAT ALL ARE DIFFERENT BUT CONNECTED BUT STILL DIFFERENT. THANK YOU, WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE..

 

[virtualgirl]

Hi Lunabella.

I will send you a PM.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

A LADY IN THE SYNAGOUGE LAST WEEK TOLD MY HUSBAND IN SPANISH ABOUT THE OUTER PART OF THE EGG THE WHITE AND THE YOLK WHICH ONLY MAKES ONE EGG. MY HUSBAND IN RESPONSE SAID THAT THE WHITE IS NOT THE YOLK, NOR IS THE OUTER PART I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT IN ENGLISH THE YOLK NOR THE WHITE, SO THAT MEANS THAT ALL ARE DIFFERENT BUT CONNECTED BUT STILL DIFFERENT

Yes, that is indeed i . The yolk the albumen and the shell argument is far from convincing to me. The fact that the yolk is not the shell and the shell is not the white makes the argument that one diety is at work null and void. Why? Because they are not the same but distinct! Think about the husband and wife relation and scripture identifing them as one flesh Gen 2:24. Rabbi Shimon interprets that to mean that man alone is only half flesh. When united to his wife two halves of flesh get together and make one flesh. We know that this joining together is called one flesh though there are two different persons discussed that make that unity. I wouldn't dare use this analysis as some Trinitarians do and assimilate it to God's nature, for God is not a man and is without physicallity, nor are his hands bound to human logic for he transcendes that. If we try to use the above analysis to explain God, we will be speaking utter foolishness. How God works and his nature is not something mere mortals can explain nor understand through philosophies. Hence, the 2,000 year old arguments for and against the Trinity will not be resolved until we reach the Olam Haba. I agree with Maimonides that nothing physical can happen to God, no joining nor separation (Mishneh Torah, Yesodei HaTorah, 1:7, 1:12.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Morning all!

They're talking about the egg analogy in the women's section right now. I had never heard the analogy until then. I thought it was good one for explaining the theory, but I still do not grasp the concept. And the circles one talks in to derive at the concept makes my head spin!

Lunabella, I'm glad you chimed in! My husband and I enjoy debating this as well. Your post sounds as though you DO believe in the trinity? My husband does as well, though he's on the fence. He sways 80% toward the trinity while I sway 80% toward non-trinity. We enjoy a good discussion about it. You should have seen us reading together at the computer yesterday when the egg discussion came up and how much trouble I had not calling God and egg!

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Morning all!

They're talking about the egg analogy in the women's section right now. I had never heard the analogy until then. I thought it was good one for explaining the theory, but I still do not grasp the concept. And the circles one talks in to derive at the concept makes my head spin!

Lunabella, I'm glad you chimed in! My husband and I enjoy debating this as well. Your post sounds as though you DO believe in the trinity? My husband does as well, though he's on the fence. He sways 80% toward the trinity while I sway 80% toward non-trinity. We enjoy a good discussion about it. You should have seen us reading together at the computer yesterday when the egg discussion came up and how much trouble I had not calling God and egg!

Hi Kris, can you provide us with the link to that section? I don't know my way very well around CF accept for this section and the theology one! I'm under the assumption that i can't post anything there for i am not a woman. Is the issue being debated? Perhaps it's just a fellowship thread with no debating permitted.

Shalom!

 

[2ducklow]

Well, let's see now, the yolk represents Jesus who is God, and the egg white represents God the Father who is God, and the shell represnts God the holy spirit who is god, and the egg represents the trinity god. The egg analogy results in 4 gods.


However, I don't know anyone who considers an egg white to be a whole egg. (that's probably why they call it an egg white and not an egg).

If, however, the yolk reprents part of the egg it would mean that Jesus is only 1/3 God. If the egg white represents part of the egg, then God the Father is 1/3 God, If the egg shell represents part of the egg, then God the Holy spirit is 1/3 God. Therefore, the egg represents the whole of God and 3 beings each of which is 1/3 God together are one God, in which case God is not a being but a committee of 3 beings.


Therefore, the egg analogy is a failed analogy. (actually there is no analogy in nature that is equivalent to 3 beings that are one being, aka the trinity, you would have to search in some novel like 'alice in wonderland' to find such an analogy.)

 

[Kris10leigh]

Hi Kris, can you provide us with the link to that section? I don't know my way very well around CF accept for this section and the theology one! I'm under the assumption that i can't post anything there for i am not a woman. Is the issue being debated? Perhaps it's just a fellowship thread with no debating permitted.

Shalom!

True, you may not post. And true too, there's no debating. It's been a very nice discussion so far. But for your reading enjoyment:

http://christianforums.com/t7188842-jesus-is-god.html

Feel free to ask me anything about what I've contributed. I don't think I jumped in right away.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Well, let's see now, the yolk represents Jesus who is God, and the egg white represents God the Father who is God, and the shell represnts God the holy spirit who is god, and the egg represents the trinity god. The egg analogy results in 4 gods.


However, I don't know anyone who considers an egg white to be a whole egg. (that's probably why they call it an egg white and not an egg).

If, however, the yolk reprents part of the egg it would mean that Jesus is only 1/3 God. If the egg white represents part of the egg, then God the Father is 1/3 God, If the egg shell represents part of the egg, then God the Holy spirit is 1/3 God. Therefore, the egg represents the whole of God and 3 beings each of which is 1/3 God together are one God, in which case God is not a being but a committee of 3 beings.


Therefore, the egg analogy is a failed analogy. (actually there is no analogy in nature that is equivalent to 3 beings that are one being, aka the trinity, you would have to search in some novel like 'alice in wonderland' to find such an analogy.)

While I see your point, it IS a good analogy for what trinitarians believe. It fails for you because you don't believe it, but it does fairly represent their belief. Does it help you to better understand where they are coming from? What they are taught?

And yes, you're right, it does seem to point to four gods. I hadn't really thought about that. It seems there's the father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and then there's God. But that makes God out to be very strange indeed, I think.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's not strange to those who are taught that from birth onward.
Thay's why they usually defend it so passionately (like anything someone is raised with, it's very hard to learn new.).
It's so cool though if they for real start to learn Hebrew, their objections just sort of melt away over time.

 

[virtualgirl]

It's not strange to those who are taught that from birth onward.
Thay's why they usually defend it so passionately (like anything someone is raised with, it's very hard to learn new.).
It's so cool though if they for real start to learn Hebrew, their objections just sort of melt away over time.

Not necessarily true. My brother is a Hebrew and Greek scholar, and a Trinitarian.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Maybe so, but I just don't understand how anyone can learn the truth like a little child taught by Yahweh and still think that way.

 

[Simonline]

Maybe so, but I just don't understand how anyone can learn the truth like a little child taught by Yahweh and still think that way.

Simple, because YHWH, by His Spirit, has revealed to us that He is one God existing not as Mono-Personal like His human creatures but as Tri-Personal like nothing else (exactly as it says in the Scriptures)?! If people refuse to believe what God has revealed then they have only themselves to blame?!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

I completely agree. They CANNOT both be right. Someone is right and someone is wrong. This IS a black and white issue, to me. Where you and I disagree is that I believe we can't know who is right and you believe you ARE right. I respect your position and admire your steadfast approach. I just really disagree with you on this issue of being right.

If we cannot know who is right and who is wrong then, as far as you are concerned, Satan has completely succeded in so confusing the issues for you that you are now resigned to self-imposed agnosticism?!

The very fact that we have the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as our canon says that it is possible to know Truth (as God Himself has revealed it to mankind) and therefore, by implication, what is false. It is on this basis that it is possible to know who is holding to the truth (in accordance with what the Judeo-Christian Scriptures teach) and who is propagating falsehood.

If it is not possible to know what is true and what is false (and therefore, by implication, who is right and who is wrong) then what we are saying is that the Bible is NOT the revealed Word of God and God has NOT in fact revealed His Truth to us (either through His general revelation of the Creation, His special revelation of His Word, the Judeo-Christian Scriptures or His supreme revelation of Himself, incarnate as a man) since, according to you, we cannot know any of it?!

Based on your assessment of the situation, we are, in effect, in absolute spiritual darkness with absolutely no hope of salvation?! If we cannot know Truth then we cannot know God who alone is Truth (Jn.14:6) and consequently we cannot know salvation from spiritual darkness (Jn.17:3).

I agree with your logic. However, I don't think anyone here is knowingly using scripture to "justify a false supposition". Why would anyone do that except for twisted entertainment? It depends on how it is all interpretted.

Awww! You are so naive. I am not saying that everyone is using the Scriptures to try and justify their own theological/philosophical presuppositions but there are definitely some here who are. They do it because they are reprobate and as such are fundamentally hostile to the Truth.

I agree. Someone is right here. Everyone is using the Bible to substantiate their argument. It's just being interpretted differently.

I can tell from what you are saying and the way that you are arguing that you have no concept of the absolute nature of Truth. To you, Truth is nothing more than a matter of opinion and everyone's own personal opinion is equally valid. That is a modern (and inherently false) perception of reality. The truth is that Truth itself is, by definition, absolute and that which does not conform to it is, by definition, inherently false.

When the Messiah declared 'I am the Way the Truth and the Life and no-one comes to the Father except by/through me' (Jn.14:6) He was not simply expressing His opinion. He was stating an absolute truth. There is absolutely no salvation either 'outside of' or 'apart from' the one true living God (YHWH) incarnate as a human creature (Jesus of Nazareth) and anyone who is not 'in Christ Jesus' in the authentic Biblical sense is destined for everlasting Perdition in the everlasting Lake of Fire (irrespective of what they personally think or believe). That is not just an opinion. That, according to the Bible, is the absolute Truth and as such is not up for either discussion or debate since it is absolutely non-negotiable.

Simonline.