Should We Teach Creation As Science In Public Schools?

[JacksBratt]

A couple of the common assumptions (added ideas not in scripture) that young Earth theories in effect add on top of scripture:

1) that little or no time passed when God created all the Universe during Gen 1:1 before the moment in Gen 1:2. In reality we are not told in scripture how much time passed during the events in verse 1 before verse 2.

This is due to the simple fact that there is absolutely no reason for any time to pass.

God is perfectly capable of doing what He said that He did... in the time frame that is presented.

It is only those who listen to the words of the created.. in order to explain the concepts of the creator.. that need any time to have passed.

If you don't think God could have done it... That's your issue. Not an issue with the scriptures.

Fact is.. there is no reason to add time.

Why aren't we told?

Occams razor... We weren't told because it didn't happen... No time passed.

2) that the Tree of Life in the Garden (chapters 2, 3, and in heaven forever: Revelation last chapter) had no effect (!??!), and thus that Adam was aging in the Garden before he ate the fruit that would make him subject to death (!??!) (Genesis chapter 2), and therefore that the time in Garden for Adam was part of his total years of life. (every notion that we can just assume the Garden of Eden time was little or no time are using this kind of assumption)

God took Adam and Eve out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life, after the fall, and live forever....

Before the fall it was of no concern. They could eat of it at will.



--------

While YEC disobeys direct commands from God not to add to scripture, it also distracts people away (including the lost that don't yet have Christ) from seeking God and learning of Christ, their only hope of salvation.

YEC doesn't add to scripture... Saying that there was a gap after Genesis 1:1 IS adding to scripture things not stated.

 

[Halbhh]

For believers it helps to read the entire Bible before trying to make up theories about Genesis chapter 1 small details of creation! (if they even should at all....)

Consider: in 1rst Samuel chapter 3 one can learn how visions are a normal way God communicates.

We can learn from scripture that a person receiving a vision will not understand all (or often even much!) of what he is seeing! A good example many already know is the vision Peter received in Acts chapter 10.

What we see in visions over and over -- example is Peter's vision in Acts chapter 10 -- is that God only uses a few words, and it will not be clear to the recipient what it all means at first -- they won't understand the stylized things they are seeing.

The recipient of the vision can only convey what they saw as best they can with the words they have that make the most sense to them.

So, Peter could not at first report something like: "I saw a scene telling me that old laws about what is clean and unclean have been left behind." This is not what Peter could convey just after seeing the vision.

God only gave a few mysterious words!

In a similar way, Moses seeing the revealed vision written down in Genesis chapter 1, again, without only very brief and somewhat mysterious words -- did God command nature to bring forth life?.... --

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation....

It seems so. It is what the words say here.

But people can imagine other possibilities.

When they do imagine other ways to guess at what happened, they should not claim their ideas are scripture though! They should clearly convey they are only using ideas not themselves in scripture.

Usually, YEC preachers fail to tell others about their ideas they are using, ideas not in scripture.

 

[Halbhh]

in the time frame that is presented.

But no time frame is presented for verse 1.....

See?

Why is no time duration told to us?

Because it does not matter how much time passed!

Scripture is not about trivial things that don't matter!

Don't you agree? It's not about trivialities.

It's about profound things throughout Genesis. There are no trivialities.

The exact amount of time that passed before the Spirit came to Earth and hovered over the waters....isn't what matters!

What matters is that God made everything that is. Everything. And the Spirit came to our home, Earth!

 

[JacksBratt]

But no time frame is presented for verse 1.....

It says, "in the beginning"... That's a time frame.
From then on there is no indication of any time dilation or time passage other than the 6 days.


Why do you think that God could not have done it in the time frame indicated by the scriptures?

 

[JackRT]

Well as Evolution in the from microbe to man via mutations preserved by natural selection is untestable,

It is testable both in the lab and in the field.

unprovable

Nothing in science can be proven beyond any doubt. Proof lies only within the realm of mathematics.

and far far outside the scientific method of validation

Not so.

it should not be taught as science either, no matter what some say!

The theory of evolution is absolutely foundational to the life sciences of biology and medicine.

 

[Halbhh]

It says, "in the beginning"... That's a time frame.
From then on there is no indication of any time dilation or time passage other than the 6 days.


Why do you think that God could not have done it in the time frame indicated by the scriptures?

That is the thing I'm saying: we aren't told any time for verse 1 -- not Zero, not 1 hour, not 10,000 years...no information. Not A, not B, not C.

Why?

Because it is truly unimportant.

But there is a harmful error when anyone assumes a time amount such as zero, and then preaches their assumption itself is scripture.

 

[JacksBratt]

That is the thing I'm saying: we aren't told any time for verse 1 -- not Zero, not 1 hour, not 10,000 years...no information. Not A, not B, not C.

Why?

Because it is truly unimportant.

But there is a harmful error when anyone assumes a time amount such as zero, and then preaches their assumption itself is scripture.

So, basically, you're saying that we don't know how long it was from verse 1 to even verse 3...

So, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".... What's the issue? Just a statement and nothing happened.

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Verse 2... another statement.. nothing taking place.... more info..

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

OK... Now verse 3 and the ball starts rolling... Nothing before this, not even light.. Then.. six days later.. we have the entire earth, moon, sun, stars and all the animals, plants, bugs and man..

So, as far as I'm concerned.. it could have been an eternity from verse 1 to 3... nothing happened.. The earth was still completed in six days.

 

[coffee4u]

The education system should teach neither as science.

Science class should only focus on things that can be tested and repeated -which leaves out so-called 'evolution science' which is not science at all but a theory.

Schools should focus on reading, writing, maths, history geography, civics and one other language. On a video someone was asked "In which hemisphere do you find Australia?" (not pointing the finger too much at the US education system but I am somewhat) He thought it was the eastern one. More time is needed on geography and less on dinosaur theories.

Then as electives, there could be a class for evolution and a class for creation and Bible studies. If people of other faiths or world views wanted their own classes they would have to provide the teachers. Whatever teachers took the classes would need to believe in whatever they were teaching. Parents should have to sign up for them until grade 10 but grades 11 and 12 should be able to sign up for themselves.

 

[LoG]

So, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".... What's the issue? Just a statement and nothing happened.

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Verse 2... another statement.. nothing taking place.... more info..

Though I would quibble with the translations used, it could still nonetheless be pointed out that verse 1 and 2 are two differing snapshots of creation before the start of the 7 day construction event at verse 3.

Verse one instead of being a summation for the rest of Genesis 1, is better interpreted as a complete and standalone creation of the heaven and Earth "in the beginning". The fact that God created it, implies a complete and perfect creation which is contrasted by the snapshot described in verse 2 where the Earth had become ruined and despoiled and darkness lay upon the face of the abyss while God's Spirit brooded over the surface of its waters, which would be a more literal translation of the words used.
What happened took place between verse 1 and 2 and is of an undetermined and unstated length of time. On a need to know basis, it appears we don't need to know for our spiritual well being.

 

[JacksBratt]

Though I would quibble with the translations used, it could still nonetheless be pointed out that verse 1 and 2 are two differing snapshots of creation before the start of the 7 day construction event at verse 3.

Verse one instead of being a summation for the rest of Genesis 1, is better interpreted as a complete and standalone creation of the heaven and Earth "in the beginning". The fact that God created it, implies a complete and perfect creation which is contrasted by the snapshot described in verse 2 where the Earth had become ruined and despoiled and darkness lay upon the face of the abyss while God's Spirit brooded over the surface of its waters, which would be a more literal translation of the words used.
What happened took place between verse 1 and 2 and is of an undetermined and unstated length of time. On a need to know basis, it appears we don't need to know for our spiritual well being.

Even the translation that you use for verse 2.. The earth was still created in 6 literal days and that agenda is laid out in verses 3 and onward.
There is no indication of long time periods before that, whether they would even matter. So stating such is adding information based on speculation.

My wife and I built a house when our oldest was a baby..

I could say to him, "when you were a baby, we built a house"

This is the same as "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

Neither give any indication of the length of time it took.

 

[LoG]

Even the translation that you use for verse 2.. The earth was still created in 6 literal days and that agenda is laid out in verses 3 and onward.
There is no indication of long time periods before that, whether they would even matter. So stating such is adding information based on speculation.

Verse 1 and 2 clearly indicate that the heavens and Earth preexisted Day 1 when God called for Light. There is nothing in verse 3 or subsequent ones that mention at what point the earth, water and the heavens were brought into existence.

My wife and I built a house when our oldest was a baby..
I could say to him, "when you were a baby, we built a house"

This is the same as "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
Neither give any indication of the length of time it took.

Right and using that analogy lets follow it with how the Genesis lays it out.

Day 1 you turned on the electricity.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Day 2 you cleared away the 100 foot snow drifts above the house.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Day 3 you pump away the spring melt that had surrounded and flooded the house and property then seed the grass, herbs and trees around the property.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Day 4 You install and turn on the lights inside and outside the house.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Day 5 You stock the fish ponds and and chicken and pigeon coops.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Day 6 You bring livestock to the barns, put out some rabbits, bring in the family pets and finally you and your family move in to the renovated and completed house.

Notice how the house itself was built when your oldest was a baby but then some time passed and the house and property became a mess and buried in snow before you decided to start the process to make it habitable (again). Day 1 the house is already there but not visible. You may have used the house before but were obviously no longer living there when you started the renovation.
If you did construct it new during that 6 day process, then when did you build it? Was it during Day 1, 2 or 3 and why did you not mention it during those days? And why would you build a house in the middle of what amounted to be a lake that you had to spend the better part of 2 days clearing, to even get to the house?
As a 7 day creation event, it has inconsistencies but as a remaking/reconstruction event it makes perfect sense. Which is probably why God said:

Exo_20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
It does not say that the Lord created heaven and earth no matter how often people misquote that verse.

 

[nolidad]

A couple of the common assumptions (added ideas not in scripture) that young Earth theories in effect add on top of scripture:

1) that little or no time passed when God created all the Universe during Gen 1:1 before the moment in Gen 1:2. In reality we are not told in scripture how much time passed during the events in verse 1 before verse 2.
Why aren't we told? Because we do not need to know for our souls and for our relationship with God. It's not the point of scripture to teach us mere physics and mere geology and mere biology sciences -- all of which are ultimately trivial compared to God and our relationship with Him.

I know this gap theory argument! It just doesn't hold water biblically nor grammatically nor scientifically!

Tohu wah bohu simply means unformed and empty! It does not imply like some insist that the earth "became" empty and desolate. Thiose who adhere to this as believers fall into one of these camps:

1. Precreation rebellion of the devil and his angels that ruined the earth (ruin and restoration theory)
2. Pre Adamic creation that covers the dinosaurs and early hominids.

Both are not supportable bibilically nor scientifically.

In the last 15 years radiometric dating has been empirically proven to be fatally flawed as a chronometer for teh past!

But we were told by God

This is day one of Creation:

Genesis 1:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The verb "was in verse 2 is in the Qal perfect which means the without form and void was a completed and not process action!

But you are wrong about the importance of this verse! Many many believers have been decieved and held captive by Satan over those who have sought to twist this verse to try to make th eBible conform with Darwinian Evolution!

2) that the Tree of Life in the Garden (chapters 2, 3, and in heaven forever: Revelation last chapter) had no effect (!??!), and thus that Adam was aging in the Garden before he ate the fruit that would make him subject to death (!??!) (Genesis chapter 2), and therefore that the time in Garden for Adam was part of his total years of life. (every notion that we can just assume the Garden of Eden time was little or no time are using this kind of assumption)

This assumption/added idea clearly contradicts the sense of chapters 2 and 3, where Adam is warned not to eat that fruit or he will become subject to death after eating it (not before!). In reality we have no idea how much ordinary time passed in the outside Earth while Adam walked with the Eternal One and with the Tree of Life nearby!

Well all that is conjecture on you rpart. I agree Adam, Eve and God could have walked together in the garden for centuries before they fell.

All we can conclude with certainty is that Adam was 130 years when He gave birth to Seth. Was that 130 years from his creation or from when he was cast out of the garden? We don't know and shouldn't guess. I am OK with both thoughts but will not say one is absolute.

And you are wrong about eating from the tree of life- they were free to eat that fruit! What they were forbidden to eat was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[JacksBratt]

Verse 1 and 2 clearly indicate that the heavens and Earth preexisted Day 1 when God called for Light. There is nothing in verse 3 or subsequent ones that mention at what point the earth, water and the heavens were brought into existence.


Right and using that analogy lets follow it with how the Genesis lays it out.

Day 1 you turned on the electricity.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Day 2 you cleared away the 100 foot snow drifts above the house.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Day 3 you pump away the spring melt that had surrounded and flooded the house and property then seed the grass, herbs and trees around the property.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Day 4 You install and turn on the lights inside and outside the house.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Day 5 You stock the fish ponds and and chicken and pigeon coops.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Day 6 You bring livestock to the barns, put out some rabbits, bring in the family pets and finally you and your family move in to the renovated and completed house.

Notice how the house itself was built when your oldest was a baby but then some time passed and the house and property became a mess and buried in snow before you decided to start the process to make it habitable (again). Day 1 the house is already there but not visible. You may have used the house before but were obviously no longer living there when you started the renovation.
If you did construct it new during that 6 day process, then when did you build it? Was it during Day 1, 2 or 3 and why did you not mention it during those days? And why would you build a house in the middle of what amounted to be a lake that you had to spend the better part of 2 days clearing, to even get to the house?
As a 7 day creation event, it has inconsistencies but as a remaking/reconstruction event it makes perfect sense. Which is probably why God said:

Exo_20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
It does not say that the Lord created heaven and earth no matter how often people misquote that verse.

Still, there is no statement of creation until verse 3.. From that point.. to six literal days later... everything existed.

 

[Halbhh]

I know this gap theory argument! It just doesn't hold water biblically nor grammatically nor scientifically!

Tohu wah bohu simply means unformed and empty! It does not imply like some insist that the earth "became" empty and desolate. Thiose who adhere to this as believers fall into one of these camps:

1. Precreation rebellion of the devil and his angels that ruined the earth (ruin and restoration theory)
2. Pre Adamic creation that covers the dinosaurs and early hominids.

Both are not supportable bibilically nor scientifically.

In the last 15 years radiometric dating has been empirically proven to be fatally flawed as a chronometer for teh past!

But we were told by God

This is day one of Creation:

Genesis 1:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The verb "was in verse 2 is in the Qal perfect which means the without form and void was a completed and not process action!

But you are wrong about the importance of this verse! Many many believers have been decieved and held captive by Satan over those who have sought to twist this verse to try to make th eBible conform with Darwinian Evolution!



Well all that is conjecture on you rpart. I agree Adam, Eve and God could have walked together in the garden for centuries before they fell.

All we can conclude with certainty is that Adam was 130 years when He gave birth to Seth. Was that 130 years from his creation or from when he was cast out of the garden? We don't know and shouldn't guess. I am OK with both thoughts but will not say one is absolute.

And you are wrong about eating from the tree of life- they were free to eat that fruit! What they were forbidden to eat was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You know, it's coming to me, these various ways to guess at how old the Earth is -- that they are all beside the point of the scripture.

There's a reason God didn't bother to tell us just the precise amount of those 2 unknown times.

Because they just. do. not. matter. at. all.

Right?

Yes, this is certainly true, because He choose not to include it.

Therefore it truly does not matter.

And if we accidentally get cornered into emphasizing some assumptions we have about the age of the Earth in a discussion with an atheist, we have lost track of what matters, and are doing no good. Because we are given a misdirected sense of what the scripture is about!

Every last person emphasizing 6,000 something years or 10,000, etc., as if scripture, isn't representing the real, actual, content, the true real Word.

The real word doesn't descend down to the level of the trivial like "6,340 years" -- no such trivialities!

 

[nolidad]

It is testable both in the lab and in the field.

Well I have had many on this forum with as high as PHD's in gentics attempt to prove that- but go ahead and give it a try!

I await your proof that microbes mutated, were preserved by natural selection, and through "positive mutations" over X time became todays present biodiversity!

Nothing in science can be proven beyond any doubt. Proof lies only within the realm of mathematics.

That is why the evolutionary hypothesis is just that- a hypothesis. We can empirically prove mutations, we can empirically rove adaptations and variations, but we cannot prove fish to amphibians to reptiles to birds etc.

Besides over 99.9% of all mutations fall on teh harmful side of the equation (though most of those are nearly benign)

Not so.

Well the scientific method is:

hypothesize
test
observe
repeat
publish.

I await your giving us infomration that a cow like animal over X time evolved into a whale.

Show the rtestinig and observation and repeating the experiment.

 

[JacksBratt]

I know this gap theory argument! It just doesn't hold water biblically nor grammatically nor scientifically!

Tohu wah bohu simply means unformed and empty! It does not imply like some insist that the earth "became" empty and desolate. Thiose who adhere to this as believers fall into one of these camps:

1. Precreation rebellion of the devil and his angels that ruined the earth (ruin and restoration theory)
2. Pre Adamic creation that covers the dinosaurs and early hominids.

Both are not supportable bibilically nor scientifically.

In the last 15 years radiometric dating has been empirically proven to be fatally flawed as a chronometer for teh past!

But we were told by God

This is day one of Creation:

Genesis 1:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The verb "was in verse 2 is in the Qal perfect which means the without form and void was a completed and not process action!

But you are wrong about the importance of this verse! Many many believers have been decieved and held captive by Satan over those who have sought to twist this verse to try to make th eBible conform with Darwinian Evolution!



Well all that is conjecture on you rpart. I agree Adam, Eve and God could have walked together in the garden for centuries before they fell.

All we can conclude with certainty is that Adam was 130 years when He gave birth to Seth. Was that 130 years from his creation or from when he was cast out of the garden? We don't know and shouldn't guess. I am OK with both thoughts but will not say one is absolute.

And you are wrong about eating from the tree of life- they were free to eat that fruit! What they were forbidden to eat was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I agree..

I fully believe that God knew, when He wrote the scriptures or inspired Moses to write them.. knew that man would question the literal six days...

So... He insured that it was clear by putting "There was evening and morning, the first day".. "There was evening and morning, the second day" and so on..

It cannot be avoided.

 

[Halbhh]

If one's version of creationism (particular theories/doctrines) are more important to them than the Gospels -- as shown by what they most emphasize in their limited time and talking......

....during that limited brief time someone else will listen to them....

...during the only short time we have....

....then what are they really believing in the most?

A doctrine, instead of Christ Jesus as salvation???

 

[JacksBratt]

Well I have had many on this forum with as high as PHD's in gentics attempt to prove that- but go ahead and give it a try!

I await your proof that microbes mutated, were preserved by natural selection, and through "positive mutations" over X time became todays present biodiversity!



That is why the evolutionary hypothesis is just that- a hypothesis. We can empirically prove mutations, we can empirically rove adaptations and variations, but we cannot prove fish to amphibians to reptiles to birds etc.

Besides over 99.9% of all mutations fall on teh harmful side of the equation (though most of those are nearly benign)



Well the scientific method is:

hypothesize
test
observe
repeat
publish.

I await your giving us infomration that a cow like animal over X time evolved into a whale.

Show the rtestinig and observation and repeating the experiment.

I like this post

 

[nolidad]

Still, there is no statement of creation until verse 3.. From that point.. to six literal days later... everything existed.

YOu are wrong biblically and grammatically!

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This all forms one thought.

Verse one declares God created the heavens and earth
verse 2 shows the emptiness and barrenness of the earth and that the universe was dark
verse three shows God creating light and divided it from darkness
God names the light . Day one. These verses are joined to the prior and then break by "and the evening and the morning were the first day"

 

[nolidad]

You know, it's coming to me, these various ways to guess at how old the Earth is -- that they are all beside the point of the scripture.

There's a reason God didn't bother to tell us just the precise amount of those 2 unknown times.

Because they just. do. not. matter. at. all.

Right?

Yes, this is certainly true, because He choose not to include it.

Therefore it truly does not matter.

And if we accidentally get cornered into emphasizing some assumptions we have about the age of the Earth in a discussion with an atheist, we have lost track of what matters, and are doing no good. Because we are given a misdirected sense of what the scripture is about!

Every last person emphasizing 6,000 something years or 10,000, etc., as if scripture, isn't representing the real, actual, content, the true real Word.

The real word doesn't descend down to the level of the trivial like "6,340 years" -- no such trivialities!

Well He didn't bother to tell us how long from day 6 when He formed Adam untilt the fall so that is not relavent to us. But He did tell us how old creation is!

And speaking of the young earth god created is one of many tools a disciple should be trained in to speak to those who wish to know the reason for the hope within us.

Many wish to put a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 because they think that secular science has a valid age of the earth and universe. They don't. To even entertain the thought of even theistic evolution, denies many many doctrines taught by Jesus and the apostles and nullifies the reason of Jesus death!.

The Bible absolutely teaches six days from Gen1:1 till the end of chptr. one. We should as well. There is no inconsistency with the grammar of genesis one verse one and two.