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Should We Teach Creation As Science In Public Schools?

yeshuaslavejeff

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You're joking, right? You do know you can see bacteria and microbes under a microscope.
Not at all. Look up "germ theory" "terrain theory".
Germ theory is called a theory because it is not proven truth.
It was proven false BEFORE pastuer started his lying greedy money making .
What do germs do ? They do what God Created them to do. Not cause disease.
For the rest of the story (why and how that is proven), search and keep searching for the truth about terrain theory.
One possibly good example: a healthy piece of wood can sit outside for a decade and not rot.
AN unhealthy piece of wood might rot in a week!
BOTH pieces of wood being in the same location.
 
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nolidad

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People need to hear the truth that God is Just and Fair and Impartial ( all from wonderful Bible verses/passages), and not 'cruel'. It's not enough to only say He can do whatever He wants (true, but not the full picture, not the whole truth).

I fully agree! We must use John 3:16 instead of Romans 9 in evangelism. If people are stubborn, then we resort to using warning verses. But We always lead with the love of God and the amazing price Jesus paid for our salvation!
 
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nolidad

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If Christian parents want their children taught creation science, they should do that in Sunday School.. Its the perfect venue.

Hard science, biology, chemistry etc is very demanding.. The public schools hours should concentrate on that. I am assuming that some Christian private schools also teach creation science so there is also that option. I went to a private religious girl's school that is almost 200 years old and they don't teach creation science. They do offer Bible as an elective.

I agree! We should teach actual biology, chemistry, physics astronomy,etc. in Science classes. The things we know are empirical and not hypothetical. As Evolution and the Big Bang both fall outside of the realm of the scientific method- they also should not be taught in science classes at least until the college level.

Evolutionary biology texts are all peppered with words like "suggest" "considered" "believe" "could have" "may have" That is not science but science philosophy.

Biolgy is demanding enough without adding the opinions of secularists who believe that microbes to man happened, but cannot prove it by the scientific method.
 
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nolidad

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And yet remnants of history paint a very clear picture for evolution.

Nothing, other than religious texts, points to creation.

Actually teh fossil record and the geologic record all point to a recent creation and a global flood that wiped out trillions of life forms and created our oceans, coal seams, gas and oil fields!
 
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Halbhh

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As Evolution and the Big Bang both fall outside of the realm of the scientific method- they also should not be taught in science classes at least until the college level.

The term 'Big Bang' refers really to the general model that this Universe had a beginning in time (and is expanding, as we can see it doing right now, by observation), instead of one of the competing theories like the oscillation or even the old steady state etc., the competing theories where this Universe did not have a beginning.

Really, if you think this Universe had a beginning you already are accepting the central most key part of the 'big bang' model.

Belief in a Beginning = belief in an initial coming into existence.

Now, under the tent of the 'Big Bang' general model we currently have also the theory of 'cosmic inflation', so that there is not only a beginning, but also there is a faster than light speed expansion so that the basically from-nothing Universe expands in an instant so brief, so vastly much less than 1 second, that it takes powers of ten notation just to state that time period. To a human perception, unable to perceive below the level of something like a sound as brief as 0.0002 milliseconds of time, if we could somehow watch it happen (but from where??? :) ), it would basically just suddenly be in existence.

And at first incomparably bright and we wouldn't be able to look at that level of brightness with these eyes. (and then in theory later it would be mostly dark, awaiting the light from the first stars). So this is theory based on observation actually -- the 'cosmic background radiation' -- which, believe it or not (and I'm not concerned with whether you will or won't believe these theories, though you can certainly check on the observations), is literally the left over afterglow of the early Universe.

It's from observations these theories arose, see.

So, it's valuable to notice the big difference between physics -- the basic science of things like energy, radiation, gravitation, magnetism, elementary particles, and so on -- and the very different science, vastly different, of biology, which isn't a study of elementary particles and forces like physics is, but is instead a study of complex systems that cannot be calculated from physics, due to the immense calculation that would be required.

They are 2 extremely unalike types of science in this key way, one can see.

But still, generally those trying to figure out 'evolution' are indeed trying to explain observations of fossils, for instance, so they are doing a type of science, still, even though it is far less testable or reproducible than most of physics. In other words, both are science, though one can argue physics is by nature far more tested and solid.

Note though that one thing we know in physics is that radioactive elements have 'half lives' where 1/2 of the material will decay into another isotope or element, emitting radiation as it decays. That's not only theory, but direct observation. From this solid fact, we can then begin the careful work of figuring out how old many things are, and over time, with much effort, get more and more reliable estimates of ages since a rock or fossil formed, using the ratios of isotopes in that material.
 
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nolidad

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Each of those words in other parts of the bible are used predominantly with a negative connotation, mostly where something has been destroyed and under some sort of divine condemnation. Combined together in one verse it paints a grim picture of the state of what must have been the complete and perfect creation in verse 1.
In the spirit of scripture interpreting scripture, there is a parallel in Jeremiah 4 where it speaks of Judah's desolation:



I agree, many times it connotes a judgment. But other times it is simply to connote something as barren and empty.

You err in thinking that Gensis 1:1-2 is a complete picture of day one. He started by creating an empty barren earth and a dark universe! Then He called forth light and separated it into day and night (from earths perspective) . That is day one. Is. 45:18:
Isa 45:18

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

That reaffirms that the initial act of creating the earth was not what it was designed to be!

Sorry but Jeremiah 4 has nothing to do with Gods creative powers and how He creates so that is a false comparison.

To me that strongly speaks of a period of time between the creation in verse 1 and the destruction and chaos we see in verse 2 requiring a reconstruction from verse 3 onwards.

That is reading loads of implied things in the phrase tohu wah bohu. Why is there absolutely nothing in teh rest of SCriputre to tell us that God created the heavens and earth prior and then something happened to cause God to destroy it all and start all over again? Were there stars in the prior universe? Was there life?

The rest of teh bible declares that God created the uiverse and all that is within it in six days! Not one verse even implies that what we have today is a remake!

Assume and believe what you want of other people's motivation for accepting a gap theology, some of us simply do because there is strong scriptural evidence for it, regardless of whether it allows evolution a foot in the door. From what i see, most of the TE's take genesis as allegorical or day/age anyway so I don't think it particularly matters to them. Myself I am a creationist who takes the bible literally in those places where we are meant to but I have accepted the possibility of previous creations for 50 or so years without delving into what that might have looked like.

On topic, which version of Creation should be taught in schools if that was going to be allowed?

Strong scriptural evidence? Really?? Just because tohu and bohu are used sometimes in judgment against people and sometimes is simply used to mean a place like a desert or even a barren woman!
No verses of some galactic battle anywehere. No verses of God destroying the original heavens and earth and stating all over again.

I await your "strong Scriptural evidence.

I believe 6 day divine creation as spelled out in the Bible should be taught . Along with the destruction of all life except for the inhabitants of the ark and the physical consequences we see as a result of a global flood andthat the nations and root languages all began at Babel when God dispersed the nations!
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But We always lead with the love of God and the amazing price Jesus paid
Like Jesus "led with" when He told the woman "you have been with (or had) five men (or husbands) " ?

Not considered politically correct today, eh !

(yes Jesus ALWAYS spoke what the Father gave Him to speak, each and every word perfect in trust and obedience)
 
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Sleepy089

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It doesn't matter how fast the speed of light is or how far the stars are measured to be. This had nothing to do with the miracle of creation.
Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.


God created them and stretched them out where he wanted them to be. While psalms is poetry and even Isaish isn't strictly literal since God isn't a large man in the sky but spirit. The verses still pictures God using his 'hands' to literally place the stars where they are, even if that happens to be billions of miles away. My guess is this was no more difficult a task for God than designing the wings of a butterfly.

He also made sure that mankind could see them and use them.

Genesis 1
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

There are a couple of flat earth people on CF. You will find the vast majority of us do not hold to that at all.
When I read the old testament I find holes in the story. When I read the New testament I find holes in the story. Especially in the first four books of the New testament it is apparently obvious that each of them tell their story from their point of view.

There are a lot of differences in each book of the first four books of the New testament. And any time you point those holes out to Christians they get mad. here is a fact the universe is billions of years old the Earth is billions of years old it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt it's one of the few things in science that can be proven. Does that make the Bible a bad book no. The Bible is a guide on having a relationship with God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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When I read the old testament I find holes in the story. When I read the New testament I find holes in the story. Especially in the first four books of the New testament it is apparently obvious that each of them tell their story from their point of view.
Thus,
what is the difference then,
in reading the Scriptures in the flesh, finding holes in the story as you claim, as the flesh always might do,
vs
Yahweh revealing / opening/ all Scriptures to a man(as written in Scripture) ?
 
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nolidad

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The term 'Big Bang' refers really to the general model that this Universe had a beginning in time (and is expanding, as we can see it doing right now, by observation), instead of one of the competing theories like the oscillation or even the old steady state etc., the competing theories where this Universe did not have a beginning.

Really, if you think this Universe had a beginning you already are accepting the central most key part of the 'big bang' model.

Belief in a Beginning = belief in an initial coming into existence.

Now, under the tent of the 'Big Bang' general model we currently have also the theory of 'cosmic inflation', so that there is not only a beginning, but also there is a faster than light speed expansion so that the basically from-nothing Universe expands in an instant so brief, so vastly much less than 1 second, that it takes powers of ten notation just to state that time period. To a human perception, unable to perceive below the level of something like a sound as brief as 0.0002 milliseconds of time, if we could somehow watch it happen (but from where??? :) ), it would basically just suddenly be in existence.

And at first incomparably bright and we wouldn't be able to look at that level of brightness with these eyes. (and then in theory later it would be mostly dark, awaiting the light from the first stars). So this is theory based on observation actually -- the 'cosmic background radiation' -- which, believe it or not (and I'm not concerned with whether you will or won't believe these theories, though you can certainly check on the observations), is literally the left over afterglow of the early Universe.

It's from observations these theories arose, see.

So, it's valuable to notice the big difference between physics -- the basic science of things like energy, radiation, gravitation, magnetism, elementary particles, and so on -- and the very different science, vastly different, of biology, which isn't a study of elementary particles and forces like physics is, but is instead a study of complex systems that cannot be calculated from physics, due to the immense calculation that would be required.

They are 2 extremely unalike types of science in this key way, one can see.

But still, generally those trying to figure out 'evolution' are indeed trying to explain observations of fossils, for instance, so they are doing a type of science, still, even though it is far less testable or reproducible than most of physics. In other words, both are science, though one can argue physics is by nature far more tested and solid.

Note though that one thing we know in physics is that radioactive elements have 'half lives' where 1/2 of the material will decay into another isotope or element, emitting radiation as it decays. That's not only theory, but direct observation. From this solid fact, we can then begin the careful work of figuring out how old many things are, and over time, with much effort, get more and more reliable estimates of ages since a rock or fossil formed, using the ratios of isotopes in that material.

And all that secular gobbledy gook is all hypothetical. It cannot be tested. Even the equations physicists use to attempt to validate the big bang cannot be tested as to their accuracy to the real universe.

The problem with the big bang that they have come to realize is that everything has to come from nothing! The old hyper dense subatomic size piece of matter that blew up is being tossed outr by physicistis because of its intractable problem. If you have any speck of matter, no matter how small- now you have eternal matter, eternal space and eternal time! So the new model (remember it is a model and not even a valid hypothesis yet) is that everything came from nothing and that approximately 13.8 billion years ago this nothing had a galactic burp and caused the bib bang.

So there was nothing.
nothing blew up
and nothing caused everything!

And people called creationists unscientific!!!!!!!
 
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nolidad

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Like Jesus "led with" when He told the woman "you have been with (or had) five men (or husbands) " ?

Not considered politically correct today, eh !

(yes Jesus ALWAYS spoke what the Father gave Him to speak, each and every word perfect in trust and obedience)

Well he didn't lead with that but definitely brought it up!

I tell my students that there is only one gospel message we give to the world, but there are 7,700,000,000 ways we can possibly deliver that message!
 
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Halbhh

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Creation science is backed by the scientific method, so it should be taught in schools. Part of the problem is science today only accepts what is natural in the physical world. It is based on the philosophy of empiricism, but today's science does not follow it nor is it backed by the scientific method. What today's science of evolution is backed by is consensus and circumstantial forensic evidence. Why only evolution is taught in schools is because today's science does not allow for a supernatural creator to be involved in the "creation" of the universe, Earth, and everything in it. This is not science when evidence can be provided for the supernatural in creation through the Bible. It is part of Genesis and how God created the natural world. The assumption that there was no supernatural occurrence during the beginning is unscientific. One of the most basic arguments for a creator is the universe began to exist, not an eternal universe, and we have Kalam's Cosmological argument.

Furthermore, we are here -- the universe and everything in it exists! Now, if evolution and its big bang could explain in detail of how the electromagnetic spectrum, the Higgs field, the cosmic microwave background, and how amino acids formed into proteins in outer space from nothing or invisible quantum particles, then they would have a better explanation and argument with big bang. We need to have the theory fit the evidence instead of the evidence made to fit the theory. Science should not just be based on empiricism, but also on a priori reasoning in addition to the scientific a posteriori reasoning. This is all part of epistemology. We need to use facts, reasoning, and historical truths in science since not everything can be proven by scientific method.

I've read Dr. John Morris' explanation for a creator -- Should the Public Schools Teach Creation? -- and today we have a more updated version from Lee Strobel -- Strong case, but flawed by compromise (Review of Lee Strobel, Case for Creator) - creation.com. creation.com gives a brief overview without reading his book. Sorry, I haven't read his book, but have watched the video below.

I see public hermit gave a valuable answer above, and want to recommend it. All of it, including the valuable last paragraph. Actually way above, in post #20.
Here's a link to that post:
Should We Teach Creation As Science In Public Schools?

-------

Teaching any religious ideas in a public school will harm the religion taught, through both popular resentment and through misconceptions.

If one could even agree to which version to teach, whether the views of Church A or Church B, Protestant or Catholic....

Suppose one solved that huge problem by just only to read the Bible even without interpretations(!), getting around all the impossible questions about which version from which Church or viewpoints to teach....

It still would be less than good, in that it is a forced reading. Forced reading is superficial, unfriendly reading, pretty often.

More crucially though, Christianity is not gained by force. It is not gained by any imposed involuntary teachings. It is gained by personally and freely responding to hearing the gospel message of Christ by an individual.

But to merely read by Bible by force isn't this key message about Christ freely heard.

To force students to learn the Bible would be to make the Bible hated by many, as drudge work, because they did not get to choose to read it on their own.
 
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HARK!

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Should We Teach Creation As Science In Public Schools?

When I was in public school I had to learn about Islam, Greek Mythology; and I even had to take a mandatory semester in Astrology.

A course on Creation? Sure! Why not?
 
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jamesbond007

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I see public hermit gave a valuable answer above, and want to recommend it. All of it, including the valuable last paragraph. Actually way above, in post #20.

It's difficult to argue my creation science when he doesn't present a model of what he believes. We can't have an old Earth based on radioisotope dating and what God creating a cell? He doesn't explain. Instead of letting someone else do the work why don't you present a working model. I have evolution.berkeley.edu as my source for evolution. It is my alma mater and where I learned evolution. I believed in it at one time. Thus, I was able to compare creation science in the Bible since being baptized in 2012. I think it presents the better scientific argument. I also have a variety of sources for it. It isn't based on news or science articles. Once a person has a source they can use, then they can add to it by discoveries in science. Then the news comes alive.

Furthermore, it was the creation scientists that founded modern science and made most of the contributions to science in the past. Before uniformitarianism and Darwinism from the 1850s, creation science is what people believed. I'm not sure when the steady state model or eternal universe came into being (13th century?), but I suspect that was the atheist or evolutionary model from the secular or atheist side. However, it was the church that had power over science during those times so I think the creation model prevailed.
 
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jamesbond007

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When I was in public school I had to learn about Islam, Greek Mythology; and I even had to take a mandatory semester in Astrology.

A course on Creation? Sure! Why not?

That's the spirit! However, the way I understand it, it would be presented as part of regular science and an alternative theory to what is being presented by evolution. ToE, common ancestry, and long time are what many students have been taught and believe to be science. One can't just eliminate it even though it is false. The teaching of creation can't include the God of the Trinity, but a creator, a supernatural being who was able to create the universe, Earth, and everything in it. I would think it starts with the universe having a beginning (discovery of CMB) which is what was a game changer for creationism. It meant the steady state theory became pseudoscience and the Kalam Cosmological argument came from it.

How do we know a supernatural being can exist? We have living plants, animals, and humans with a life spirit. It was from the creator's breath. Nothing can replicate this and it shows the supernatural co-existing with the natural. Nothing outside the cell can be created. Only life begets life. The life spirit does not just come into existence in nature. And once it is gone, there is nothing in nature that can bring it back. All of it is explained in the Bible and only the parts that science backs up will be presented. Anyway, that's my thinking. I'm not sure if there is an actual curriculum that has been done.
 
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Halbhh

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Islam is; and that is what is being taught in public schools.
Then we should sue to stop it, since it's unconstitutional to do that. Where?
 
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