The Liturgist

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to the history. I understand fundamentalism as defined based on the early 20th Cent disagreements. At that time the following fundamentals were listed. From Wikipedia:
  • The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.
  • The virgin birth of Christ.
  • The belief that Christ's death was an atonement for sin. [I think Wikipedia is a bit wrong on this; the real issue was penal substitution.]
  • The bodily resurrection of Christ.
  • The historical reality of Christ's miracles.

Surely Wikipedia was wrong on that, because all of these points except for scriptural inerrancy and the reality of Christ’s miracles are explicit doctrines contained in the Nicene Creed, and furthermore, the two points not explicitly mentioned in the Creed were nonetheless believed by the Council Fathers and were not questioned by anyone in mainstream Christianity until the 19th century (in the 18th century you had some marginal Christians and Unitarians disputing these points in the period of time commonly called the “Enlightenment”*). Indeed, all of the points you outlined are held by the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, who regard Scripture as the core of an infallible Holy Tradition, or Magisterium in Catholic parlance.

* It really ought to be called the “Endarkenment”; the independence and Constitution of the US was only slightly influenced by it, and the most “enlightened” supporter of American Independence, Thomas Paine, was sharply criticized by John Adams, among other figures. The main fruits of the so-called Enlightenment, or Endarkenment as I would prefer to call it, were the French Revolution and a wave of destructive anti-clericalism, as well as stagnation in the realm of the arts; the only really interesting enlightenment era philosopher was Voltaire, whose works such as Micromegas I do enjoy, but who was sadly alienated from Christianity.
 
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hedrick

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Surely Wikipedia was wrong on that, because all of these points except for scriptural inerrancy and the reality of Christ’s miracles are explicit doctrines contained in the Nicene Creed
Sorry. They're right. Would you believe Britannica? Christian fundamentalism - The late 19th to the mid-20th century. They don't give the bulleted list, but it's there in what they say. This article gives a lot more history of what happened in individual denominations. (I note in passing that not all modern liberals reject everything on the bulleted list. I don't. However I agree with the early 20th Cent in considering Christians who do reject them all acceptable in the denomination.)

It's a common error to think that liberal Protestantism is a recent, transient thing. It has a continuous history to at least the early 19th Cent. As you say, it is based on the Enlightenment. The first major figure is probably Friedrich Schleiermacher, whose key word was published in 1799. Of course he didn't come out of nowhere. Note that he intended to be answering the anti-Christian influences that you mention. The Enlightenment wasn't a unitary thing. Yes, parts of it were based on attacks against the Church and faith in general, but people such as Schleiermacher were concerned with defending Christianity. Fundamentalism was also, but tried to reject modern critical thought as a whole. Unsuccessfully, I think, since it's basically impossible for anyone other than Amish to avoid using the results of the Enlightenment, and rejecting just the results you don't like doesn't make any sense.

Liberal Christianity has been influential in US churches from the late 19th Cent, but the controversy came to a head in the early 20th Cent. People who were unwilling to accept liberals as fellow Christians left the mainline churches in the early 20th Cent. I don't know how more recent conservatives didn't notice.

The term "liberal" has been controversial. Some people don't like to use it, in part because of Barth's influence. There are differences between the early 21st Cent PCUSA and early 20th Cent liberals. But the tradition is continuous, and the differences aren't as big as some think. I think most people will now admit that Barth's attacks were unfair, or perhaps overly influenced by events in Germany.
 
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The Liturgist

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It seems like every generation a group of conservatives in the PCUSA suddenly realize they're in a liberal denomination and get all upset about the church falling away. I'm not sure how they would not have noticed that they were in a liberal church all along.

Historically the PCUSA was not a liberal church. Indeed, the PCUSA was a very theologically stable, conservative denomination, and indeed until very recently, it adhered to the dictates of sacred scripture and holy tradition regarding human sexuality.

It needs to be stressed that the liberal elements did forcibly take over the mainline denominations in the 1930s-70s, after first emerging as a force to be reckoned with in the late 19th century (which is why Pope Pius X, who I do admire, wrote an encyclical condemning modernism; he also did a brilliant job improving the Roman Rite liturgy, and his encyclical on church music which revitalized Gregorian Chant and the churchly music of the likes of Byrd and Palestrina, and deprecated the bombastic orchestral masses that emerged in the Classical period, should serve as a template for a return to traditional church music across all denominations, and the rejection of praise and worship rock music, which is infinitely worse than even the noisiest and busiest Classical or Romantic era mass arrangement).

The first “mainline” church to have a major problem with liberalism in some quarters was the UCC, my old stomping ground, but for many parishioners, it was a problem that crept up on them, because the decentralized nature of the UCC allows for a minority of conservative “Faithful and Welcoming” congregations to exist even today (the Hungarian Reformed Church in Long Beach, CA, comes to mind as a good example of such a parish).

When the UCC began its downward trajectory, both theologically and in terms of membership (of congregations and parishioners alike, the CCCC broke away in response increasing liberalism in the 1940s, and then the NACCC broke away in response to the merger with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, fearing that merger would create an unwieldy bureaucracy that would threaten the congregational polity (fears that were at least partially justified).

Before all this began to happen, my own research has led me to the conclusion that the main liberal denomination in the US was the heterodox Universalist Church, but this became intolerable for liberal Christians of Nicene faith after it merged with the Unitarians to create the non-Christian Unitarian Universalist Church (which is designated by our Christian Forums Statement of Faith as non-Christian, and rightly so, because even those Unitarians which claim to be Christian and are members of the small number of remaining Christ-centric congregations, like King’s Chapel in Boston more likely than not do not believe in the divinity of Christ. In this respect their error is more extreme than that of Arius and neo-Arians like the J/Ws, so I suspect some Universalist Church members did take flight after that point, although probably not in numbers sufficient to make a difference anywhere.

From the Methodists I know, the first sign of large scale liberalism in the newly formed UMC became apparent in the late 1960s and early 70s. I am inclined to believe that liberal movements within the UMC were emboldened by four developments: a misinterpretation of Vatican II, a misunderstanding of the point of the Ecumenical Movement (liberalism within this caused several conservative churches, including the LCMS and especially ROCOR to shy away with it, Metropolitan Philaret of ROCOR going so far as to declare it a “pan heresy”*), a takeover of the Liturgical Movement by modernists**), and a massive leftward shift in the Protestant Episcopal Church, which had always been a close cousin of the Methodist Episcopal Church, the two sharing a common Anglican heritage, and both owing their existence as independent denominations to the refusal of the Church of England to provide bishops for, or pastoral care to, the United States, following the Peace of Paris. The leftward shift in the Episcopal Church was epitomized by the episcopate of James Pike, whose views on the Trinity and other subjects were so extreme he might not be Christian according to the CF.com Statement of Faith***; certainly they were more extreme than any Episcopalian priest, bishop or layman I’ve met today, the Episcopal Church being liberal, but still doctrinally orthodox. To their credit, the Episcopal Church put Bishop Pike on trial for heresy, but could not agree to convict him. While nearly all of the liberal Christians who assumed positions of power in the mainline denominations in the 1970s were both less liberal and less heterodox**** than James Pike, I believe the failure of the Episcopal Church emboldened liberal Christians to be more aggressive, along the lines of “if he could get away with that, we can surely pursue a more orthodox modernism in the spirit of the changing times in which we live.”

~

* I myself am a strong supporter of ecumenical reconciliation and disagree entirely with Metropolitan Philaret (Vechnaya pamyat) on this particular issue, although I do like much of what the late Metropolitan has to say on other issues.

** Specifically, the Liturgical Movement went from being about increased celebration of, and participation in, the Eucharist, into a trend to modernize the liturgy, with contemporary vernacular language and shorter, simpler services, in an effort to “keep up with the times,” the results in many cases being a huge degradation in the quality of worship services, and also schisms in the Episcopal and especially the Roman Catholic churches due to extreme frustration with the new liturgies being forced upon them by the hierarchy. This should not have caught anyone by surprise, because the largest schisms in the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church were the result of forced changes to the liturgy, by the Russian Orthodox Church in 1666, and most of the Greek Orthodox churches in 1920, and the moral of that story is that churches should always provide the option for congregations to decline changes to the liturgy they are uncomfortable with. In this respect, I think the LCMS and the Church of England are models to follow; both have newer service books, but an LCMS parish is not required to use the 2006 Lutheran Service Book, and the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal remains extremely popular, and likewise, many parishes in the Church of England continue to use the traditional 1662 Book of Common Prayer instead of Common Worship. Indeed, Choral Evensong is sung almost exclusively using the BCP, or a nearly identical service contained within Common Worship.

*** Without criticizing James Pike as a man and violating the ancient Roman ethical principle of nil nisi bonum, I do feel that, without commenting on his personal character, which I am neither informed on nor fit to judge, that being the jurisdiction of our Heavenly Father alone, it should I think be remembered by all Nicene Christians, especially those connected with North American Christianity what James Pike believed, which was minimum, extremely heterodox. To quote Wikipedia, “Pike's theology involved the rejection of central Christian beliefs. His writings questioned a number of widely accepted tenets, including the virginity of Mary, the Mother of Jesus;[23] the doctrine of Hell, and the Trinity.[23] He famously called for ‘fewer beliefs, more belief.’” He also was a member of a group which opposed the presidency of John F. Kennedy because of President Kennedy’s Roman Catholic faith, which I find scandalous. Given his rejection of the Trinity, I am pretty sure he would not be allowed to post on this forum were he still alive today. Tragically, he died in the desert in Israel while on a sabbatical, of dehydration and heat exhaustion, while his wife was rescued by Bedouins. Curiously, the science fiction writer Philip K. Dick, a close friend and admirer of Bishop Pike, whose religious beliefs might best be called neo-Gnostic, believed he had been murdered, and offered a compelling argument to that end in his semi-autobiographical novel VALIS.

**** Just to be absolutely clear, I do not believe there is an inherent correlation between liberal Christianity and heterodoxy, any more than there is a correlation between conservative Christianity and heterodoxy. There are specific doctrines which I personally consider erroneous that have a tendency to crop up among liberal Christians, and still others that crop up among moderate Christians, and still others that crop up among conservative Christians. For example, I very much disagree with Liberation Theology, feminist and womanist theology, the ordination of homosexuals and gay marriage, commonly associated with liberal Christianity, with latitudinarianism and ecumenism without doctrinal agreement, comminly associated with moderate Christianity, and with fundamentalist Calvinism, Dominionism and the Prosperity Gospel, which are doctrines espoused by different factions of conservative Christianity. I myself am neither a liberal, nor a moderate, nor a conservative Christian; rather I consider myself to be a traditionalist interested in the Patristic faith and the ancient traditions of worship, and my greatest desire would be to see a majority of Christians everywhere abandon the drum kits and electric guitars and return to traditional forms of worship.

Also on a personal note, @hedrick , who often speaks on behalf of liberal Christians on CF.com, is a fine gentleman of enormous warmth, kindness and piety and an exemplary Christian, who I respect enormously even though we might disagree on various questions of doctrine and practice. I hope some day to meet him and visit some churches with him.
 
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The Liturgist

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Sorry. They're right. Would you believe Britannica? Christian fundamentalism - The late 19th to the mid-20th century. They don't give the bulleted list, but it's there in what they say. This article gives a lot more history of what happened in individual denominations. (I note in passing that not all modern liberals reject everything on the bulleted list. I don't. However I agree with the early 20th Cent in considering Christians who do reject them all acceptable in the denomination.)

It's a common error to think that liberal Protestantism is a recent, transient thing. It has a continuous history to at least the early 19th Cent. As you say, it is based on the Enlightenment. The first major figure is probably Friedrich Schleiermacher, whose key word was published in 1799. Of course he didn't come out of nowhere. Note that he intended to be answering the anti-Christian influences that you mention. The Enlightenment wasn't a unitary thing. Yes, parts of it were based on attacks against the Church and faith in general, but people such as Schleiermacher were concerned with defending Christianity. Fundamentalism was also, but tried to reject modern critical thought as a whole. Unsuccessfully, I think, since it's basically impossible for anyone other than Amish to avoid using the results of the Enlightenment, and rejecting just the results you don't like doesn't make any sense.

Liberal Christianity has been influential in US churches from the late 19th Cent, but the controversy came to a head in the early 20th Cent. People who were unwilling to accept liberals as fellow Christians left the mainline churches in the early 20th Cent. I don't know how more recent conservatives didn't notice.

The term "liberal" has been controversial. Some people don't like to use it, in part because of Barth's influence. There are differences between the early 21st Cent PCUSA and early 20th Cent liberals. But the tradition is continuous, and the differences aren't as big as some think. I think most people will now admit that Barth's attacks were unfair, or perhaps overly influenced by events in Germany.

My understanding was that Fundamentalism was a Calvinist and Calvinist-Baptist school of thought which went beyond Biblical inerrancy to demand a literalist interpretation of scripture which went well beyond the literal-historical approach we would associate with Antiochene exegesis.
 
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hedrick

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My understanding was that Fundamentalism was a Calvinist and Calvinist-Baptist school of thought which went beyond Biblical inerrancy to demand a literalist interpretation of scripture which went well beyond the literal-historical approach we would associate with Antiochene exegesis.
That's two separate questions.

Was it Calvinist? The term came from the Fundamentals, which came from the Presbyterian controversy. But I don't think common usage limits it to Calvinists. Like you, I normally use conservative, to avoid that. This article The Fundamentals - Wikipedia has the table of contents of the Fundamentals. While the authors are presumably Presbyterian, none of the topics seem overtly associated with Reformed themes. Those weren't at issue.

The second is whether it was extreme. That wasn't the original intent. I've read some of the essays in the Fundamentals. They were written by good Presbyterian theologians, and the ones I've read were pretty moderate, given the conservative presuppositions. I think in common usage it may have taken on a connotation of being extreme conservatism.
 
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hedrick

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I always love their articles.
Right. But this one documents the early 20th Cent progress of liberalism in the Methodist Church.

The mainline churches didn't require people to be liberal. They still don't. The characteristic of the mainline churches has been that they accept liberals, and the leadership and seminaries tend to be liberal. That was true in most of them from the early 20th Cent, though probably the percentage of liberals has grown over time.
 
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The Liturgist

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Right. But this one documents the early 20th Cent progress of liberalism in the Methodist Church.

The mainline churches didn't require people to be liberal. They still don't. The characteristic of the mainline churches has been that they accept liberals, and the leadership and seminaries tend to be liberal. That was true in most of them from the early 20th Cent, though probably the percentage of liberals has grown over time.

Well to be clear, there is a gaping chasm between a liberal Christian of the early 20th century, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Thomas Merton or Percy Dearmer, and the radical far-left modernists who run the Methodist church today. I consider myself a liberal according to the standards of the early 20th century in terms of my rejection of slavery, segregation and brutal working conditions; I also consider myself a conservative in the tradition of Edmund Burke, but in terms of ecclesiastical affairs I am solidly a traditionalist.

I would observe that the population of the mainline churches is aging, and does by and large consist of people who are in fact conservative in many cases, but who do not want to change churches. Often they were baptized into a particular church. When our local mainline parish began to go askew in the 1990s my grandmother was stalwart in her refusal to countenance leaving, regarding church membership as being like a marriage. But a phrase I often here from the beleaguered elderly churchgoers who make up the majority of mainline Protestant Christians is “the hill on which I die,” which is their way of expressing a sine qua non , the violation of which would be intolerable. For some, this is gay marriage, for others, it is the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ, but even with these elderly congregants who loathe the prospect of leaving their church (which in some cases is literally the church in which they were baptized and married), there is still a limit as to what they will put up with.

I think the reason why the UCC* is shrinking so fast is it has crossed that line, whereas the Methodists up until this point have been treading water, and the PCUSA and ELCA are benefitting from a symbiotic relationship with the Evangelical Covenant Order and the North American Lutheran Church, which have the effect of assuring the laity that if things were to get out of hand, they have an option where they can remain in their parish and not lose that important connection to their past, and this assuages fears they might otherwise have resulting from some of the more extreme things that go on, especially in the ELCA (in contrast, your church, the PCUSA**, is relatively conservative).

* And to a lesser extent the ECUSA; Episcopalians suffer from being somewhat trapped, because the church won’t let them have their buildings or any of their heritage if they try to leave for ACNA but will instead sue them and then usually sell the land. And there was the major scandal involving Bishop Bruno of Los Angeles profiting from those sales, which aside from being corrupt double dealing, is a violation of about 50 canons from the early church; alas if only the Episcopalians followed those canons they never would have been stuck with Bishop Bruno to begin with, because he killed a man, and that was an automatic disqualifier from ordination in the early church.

** I also greatly appreciate how Christ-centric your new hymnal, Glory to God, is, compared to the new ELCA hymnal, which I find completely alienating and a horrible regression from the Lutheran Book of Worship (the so-called Green Book), which was in my opinion a very decent hymnal, although not quite as good as the 2006 LCMS Lutheran Service Book or the 1959 Lutheran Service Book and Hymnal. I also greatly admired the Worshipbook the PCUSA published in the 1970s.
 
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JSRG

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"Fundamentalist" and "modernist" were at one time used to describe the conservative and liberal sides in the 20th century controversies. I haven't heard the word "modernist" used in ages, except as a historical reference, so I think that word is slipping out of usage.
I've seen it used quite a bit in conservative/traditional Catholic quarters.
 
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I've seen it used quite a bit in conservative/traditional Catholic quarters.

Hmm, yes, I stand corrected -- I have heard it in Catholic discussions.

Do you know if any Catholics label themselves as "modernist", or if it's a word that's only used by conservatives to label other people?
 
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Hmm, yes, I stand corrected -- I have heard it in Catholic discussions.

Do you know if any Catholics label themselves as "modernist", or if it's a word that's only used by conservatives to label other people?
In my experience, it is (as you say) "a word only used by conservatives to label other people." I have never seen a Catholic refer to themselves as a modernist, though it is possible some do and I just haven't seen them.
 
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PloverWing

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* And to a lesser extent the ECUSA; Episcopalians suffer from being somewhat trapped, because the church won’t let them have their buildings or any of their heritage if they try to leave for ACNA but will instead sue them and then usually sell the land. And there was the major scandal involving Bishop Bruno of Los Angeles profiting from those sales, which aside from being corrupt double dealing, is a violation of about 50 canons from the early church; alas if only the Episcopalians followed those canons they never would have been stuck with Bishop Bruno to begin with, because he killed a man, and that was an automatic disqualifier from ordination in the early church.

Are you sure that "usually sell the land" is the most frequent outcome? In the cases that I've read about, the church building continues to house an Episcopal congregation -- though I acknowledge that I've only followed a few of the cases.

The Bishop Bruno case was unknown to me until this evening. I'm pleased to see that he was disciplined by Presiding Bishop Curry, that the sale did not go through, and that the church is once again being used for worship by an Episcopal congregation.

(Sources: Court of Review for Bishops upholds retired Los Angeles bishop’s three-year suspension , Church reopens in ‘joyful scramble,’ heralds reconciliation efforts with Los Angeles Diocese , Church disciplinary hearing due to begin for Los Angeles Bishop J. Jon Bruno )
 
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Andrewn

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Richard has described to me the politics of the UMC over the years, and the liberalism in the US, which does not extend to all districts or parishes, by a long shot, and which is also almost entirely absent from the various UMC conferences in Africa and other former mission fields.
Is the African position against homosexuality mostly based on social traditions or biblical exegesis?

deprecated the bombastic orchestral masses that emerged in the Classical period, should serve as a template for a return to traditional church music across all denominations, and the rejection of praise and worship rock music, which is infinitely worse than even the noisiest and busiest Classical or Romantic era mass arrangement).
I agree with you but young people seem to like party music.
 
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Is the African position against homosexuality mostly based on social traditions or biblical exegesis?

It’s based on the Gospel as taught by the missionaries who worked there. Attitudes among Sub-Saharan African tribes that practice indigenous religions towards homosexuality vary considerably, with some religions being polygamist, some being monotheistic, some being lax about certain forms of homosexuality and some being very strict (for that matter, there is an ancient tradition of homosexuality among various Arabic tribes which Islam has never entirely suppressed). Christian Africans however embrace the whole range of traditional Judeo-Christian moral values; I can attest to this having traveled in Africa. African Christians are devout, going to church weekly in very large numbers, adorning their homes, vehicles and businesses with Biblical quotations, and in general living a life of piety that one really only sees in among the Christians of Africa and some Asian countries (South Korea comes to mind).

I agree with you

I am glad; you have no idea how much I appreciate Christians who prefer traditional worship music.

but young people seem to like party music.

Regarding which, I can only quote Tommy Lee Jones: “I don’t care!”

But seriously, from what I have seen, traditional liturgy actually attracts people to services. Hillsong-type rock music, the sort of nonsense where you need a gitar or ah ‘lectric gitar and some of them thar drums, appeals mainly to the baby boomers and Gen X. Orthodox Churches, 1928 BCP Continuing Anglican churches, and the handful of Roman Catholic Churches where one can find the Tridentine Mass, were consistently crowded before the pandemic; additionally, in my home town the traditional continuing Anglican church has remained open while the Episcopal Churches have often closed their doors.
 
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Are you sure that "usually sell the land" is the most frequent outcome? In the cases that I've read about, the church building continues to house an Episcopal congregation -- though I acknowledge that I've only followed a few of the cases.

In most cases I have read about, the new Episcopal congregation folds after around 18 months or so due to poor attendance, and the building goes on the auction block. This makes sense, the new congregation having little or no participation from the historic congregation, which was driven out for the unspeakable heresy of following the moral and ethical teachings contained within the 1979 Book of Common Prayer and the apostolic kerygma read using the Anglican tripod of scripture, tradition and reason.

The few cases I am aware of where a new congregation blossomed, it was due to a specific outreach to a specific group, usually non-English speakers.
 
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hedrick

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Is there any data as to about what percentage of American UMC congregations would take each "side" in such a split?
Votes suggest something like 2 / 3 of those voting in General Assembly would prefer a church that allows congregations to accept gays. (This is from memory. I can’t find the actual numbers.) That doesn’t mean that that many congregations would accept a gay pastor themselves. In a split it’s not clear how many would end up in each body. It probably depends upon the details. I’m guessing more churches would end up in the liberal body.

In principle, the Traditional Plan passed, and liberal churches and even Annual Conferences should now be ejected. But there was a moratorium called in enforcing this, pending a new plan. In my opinion most Annual Conferences will never actually eject liberal congregations, and I don't think most annual conferences will permit additional trials of gay pastors, though perhaps a few southern ones will. In that case the Traditional Plan would call for ejecting the annual conferences. But I think the people who passed the plan underestimated the degree of resistance in the US, and didn't envision actually ejecting lots of Annual Conference. My impression is that many influential Africans do not want a split, and may end up accepting American autonomy rather than going ahead with enforcement of the Traditional Plan.

However there are certainly conservative congregations that are unwilling to accept this situation. So they're going to separate, in some form or another.

But the longer Covid delays a real resolution, the more congregations will leave. If the ones who really can't live in the same denomination as liberals leave, then likely whatever new organizations happen, the liberal one will effectively be a continuation of the current denomination. In that case I'd guess more congregations and Annual Conferences will stay.
 
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Ah I didn't realise they were always liberal.

They weren’t. The liberal movement began in the 1950s, but was offset by making the African converts full members of the church, which I don’t see as odd governance, I see it as correct governance. Its how the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, the Coptic Orthodox, and the Ethiopian Orthodox have done missionary work in Africa, and in the case of the Ethiopians, Jamaica. And its also how the Roman Catholics do it. The idea of creating provinces for the missionary-established churches vs. giving missionaries full and equal membership in the church, I don’t think is as agreeable (although on the plus side it did give us the awesome 1938 Melanesian Book of Common Prayer, but one can have local liturgies with global membership).
 
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