Should the minimum wage be hiked?

[Albion]

Please tell us about the significant losses. I don’t think you have researched this topic, or have any first hand knowledge.

That's always something to say when a claim has fallen flat, isn't it? And make no mistake...writing something like "Progressive economists say" is no rebuttal to the points made by the rest of us here.

 

[FenderTL5]

...Local municipalities and states are always able to raise minimum wages for a particular area where the cost of living may well be higher than much of the rest of the nation.
In Christ, ted

First of all, I agree with the majority of your post. I isolated this one part because; In my state (Tennessee) state lawmakers have refused to raise the minimum wage at the state level, and simultaneously have passed laws preventing cities from doing so. 21 states have passed “preemption” laws that strip cities of the power to raise wages.
The cost of living in a city like Nashville is far higher than the balance of the state, yet the state prohibits Nashville from taking action.

 

[miamited]

First of all, I agree with the majority of your post. I isolated this one part because; In my state (Tennessee) state lawmakers have refused to raise the minimum wage at the state level, and simultaneously have passed laws preventing cities from doing so. 21 states have passed “preemption” laws that strip cities of the power to raise wages.
The cost of living in a city like Nashville is far higher than the balance of the state, yet the state prohibits Nashville from taking action.

Hi fender,

I would say that's pretty short sighted of your state government. Maybe you need to elect some Democrats. According to Ballotpedia, your state has had all three branches of state government controlled by Republicans since 2011. But, it's your state, handle it as you will. I think areas the size of many of our larger cities, should have the freedom to adjust minimum wage requirements as they feel necessary to address higher costs of living.

I lived in Florida for many years and it's absolutely true that living in cities like Ft. Lauderdale or Miami are generally more expensive than living in many of the smaller communities in the northern parts of the state. These cost of living adjustments should be reflected in worker's pay, as far as I'm concerned. Now, I'm certainly not advocating wild swings, but say a .50 or $1 difference in minimum pay requirements between a company doing business in Miami and some company doing business in some smaller and less expensive area of the state.

However, just so you don't feel too bad, my state of SC has also adopted such laws, but SC is also one of those 'red' states. I believe it to be fairly true that Republicans are more for supporting business over people. That's not always bad, but when businesses are supplying most of a state government's lobbyists, then you're always likely to get 'big business' favored regulations over 'individual' favored regulation.

That's the way I see it.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again fender,

As a pretty perfect example, I worked for nearly 20 years with Bellsouth. They had different pay scales based on area costs of living. A technician in the Miami band made more than the same technician working in a largely rural area band.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[JacksBratt]

Here's an interesting piece on WSJ about the possible ramifications of hiking minimum wage to $15 an hour. Amazon had done that and as an investor, I'm OK with it. CBO seems to suggest that many jobs would be lost as well. I believe all the 2020 Democrats are big on this. What do you folks think?

Links:

$15 Minimum Wage Would Bring Mixed Fortunes for U.S. Workers

https://www.vox.com/2019/7/8/20686392/federal-15-minimum-wage-raise-the-wage-act

I am living in Canada. Ontario, my province, the provincial government mandatorily raised the minimum wage. In stages, it was to go from $12.45 to $15.00 in a year or so. The ramifications of this, on the small businesses of the province was crippling.

Most businesses that pay minimum wage are smaller businesses who hire students. It is a great way for kids to break into being employed with a benefit to these businesses as well.

This created a huge cut in profits to these businesses.

IMO, large businesses should not be paying minimum wages to full time people who are done school and starting careers. That is not it's purpose. Minimum wage should be a range of wages determined by the age and duties... Like.. a 15 or 16 year old working up to 10 or so hours a week would be one category... while a college or university student working 40 hours a week for two or three months in a summer would be another category..

Lets face it... Businesses are going to pay as little as possible. Over the years inflation has taken off and, unlike the 60's to 80's, wages have not kept pace.

Profit is king.... people are lining up for work.... you work for the wage offered or .... there's the door, use it.

Wages in the private sectors are much lower than union shops.... and benefits are shrinking if they exist at all.

You need a dual income household just to keep a fairly descent lifestyle..

In the end... greed is the monster.... companies want to make more and more every quarter... demands from share holders continue with threats of selling stock and moving on....

All the while, the working stiff is the one who gets the short end... It's simple to just refuse increases and pass the profits on to the upper management...

 

[FenderTL5]

Hi again fender,

As a pretty perfect example, I worked for nearly 20 years with Bellsouth. They had different pay scales based on area costs of living. A technician in the Miami band made more than the same technician working in a largely rural area band.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Ha! now AT&T does the opposite - they provide free parking for their employees at the facilities outside the city - yet those that work downtown have a payroll deduction for parking access or they pull the card for the hourly rate ($10 per hour).

related ASIDE: One Nashville newspaper had a recent article concerning the service sector employees (of which Nashville's bars, restaurants, tourist industry and hotels are dependent on) and the fact that parking costs MORE per hour than the average wage per hour.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In the end... greed is the monster.... companies want to make more and more every quarter... demands from share holders continue with threats of selling stock and moving on....

Lots of reasons for high prices and low wages. Greed is only one, but the easiest to blame.

 

[Foxfyre]

reading through the thread the gist seems to be: despite what the studies and history indicates, (I) believe the opposite of that information

First of all, I would challenge the notion that there are across the board wage increases, "for most". Wages have been static for hourly workers for years, even in decline when inflation is factored.
Secondly, IF<- if wages are increasing it is not due to Trump's policies because they were intended to do the opposite, “...the President’s tax cuts, which are going to stimulate a lot of investment, productivity growth and downward pressure on wages.” -Peter Navarro Assistant to the President, and Director of Trade and Manufacturing Policy, April 2018

.

US wages in the past 12 months:

In the United States, wages are benchmarked using average hourly earnings. Data relate to production employees in mining and logging and manufacturing, construction employees in construction, and nonsupervisory employees in the service-providing industries. These groups account for approximately four-fifths of the total employment on private nonfarm payrolls. This page provides - United States Average Hourly Wages - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. United States Average Hourly Wages - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on July of 2019.
United States Average Hourly Wages | 2019 | Data | Chart | Calendar

Jul 05, 2019 · U.S. workers are seeing the largest nominal wage increase in a decade, the Labor Department reported Wednesday, as companies compete harder for employees than they did in recent years. Wages rose ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

 

[Sparagmos]

I knew it! I knew you were going to sieze on the dates instead of any other information like uhhh businesses actually closing.

So, here's your logic. "That happened in the past. It's the present now, so all businesses are rich enough to pay double minimum wage."

It don't make much sense but...

No, since I negotiate wages for a living, I have kept up with the reporting on the issue. Those articles in 2015 were published right

I knew it! I knew you were going to sieze on the dates instead of any other information like uhhh businesses actually closing.

So, here's your logic. "That happened in the past. It's the present now, so all businesses are rich enough to pay double minimum wage."

It don't make much sense but...

You don’t seem to be very concerned with actual data. Very little data about the new minimum wage was available less than a year after the increase. As each year goes by, we have more data. Short term effects aren’t as important as long term effects. Now that we are a few years into Seattle’s increase, we can see that it has NOT caused a rise in unemployment. We know that it has NOT caused an increase in restaurant closures. Businesses close all of the time, and it can always be blamed on labor costs because labor is the largest expense of any business. I negotiate employee wages for a living and I have done plenty of research on this subject. I read the 2017 study when it was published, and all of the criticisms as well. Please tell me what is going on in Seattle right now that shows that workers are worse off because of a higher minimum wage. Anyone laid off when the wage went up had no problem getting another job, and at a higher wage.

 

[Fantine]

Most corporate executives could halve their stock options and fund modest wage increases for their lowest paid employees.

 

[Sparagmos]

That's always something to say when a claim has fallen flat, isn't it? And make no mistake...writing something like "Progressive economists say" is no rebuttal to the points made by the rest of us here.

Are you responding to my post? What claim have I made that has “fallen flat,” and when did I refer to “progressive economists?” What points have you made that were actually backed up by data? You can’t say the high min wage causes higher unemployment, when the unemployment rates are so very low in those cities. That defies logic. Here in Portland, the minimum wage is $12.50/hr and they still can’t fill all the openings for min wage work.

 

[FenderTL5]

US wages in the past 12 months:

In the United States, wages are benchmarked using average hourly earnings. Data relate to production employees in mining and logging and manufacturing, construction employees in construction, and nonsupervisory employees in the service-providing industries. These groups account for approximately four-fifths of the total employment on private nonfarm payrolls. This page provides - United States Average Hourly Wages - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. United States Average Hourly Wages - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on July of 2019.
United States Average Hourly Wages | 2019 | Data | Chart | Calendar

Jul 05, 2019 · U.S. workers are seeing the largest nominal wage increase in a decade, the Labor Department reported Wednesday, as companies compete harder for employees than they did in recent years. Wages rose ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Real Wage Growth is actually falling - Forbes
This article is from last September (2018) but not much has changed.

Here's the CPI from the same source you used for the nominal wages.


Here's the report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing real earnings.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

US wages in the past 12 months:

In the United States, wages are benchmarked using average hourly earnings. Data relate to production employees in mining and logging and manufacturing, construction employees in construction, and nonsupervisory employees in the service-providing industries. These groups account for approximately four-fifths of the total employment on private nonfarm payrolls. This page provides - United States Average Hourly Wages - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. United States Average Hourly Wages - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on July of 2019.
United States Average Hourly Wages | 2019 | Data | Chart | Calendar

Jul 05, 2019 · U.S. workers are seeing the largest nominal wage increase in a decade, the Labor Department reported Wednesday, as companies compete harder for employees than they did in recent years. Wages rose ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Adjusted for inflation the minimum wage (Wisconsin) is the same as it was in 1960.

1960- 85 cents/hr
2019- $7.50/hr

However, entry level pay in many traditionally minimum wage jobs is actually $9-$12 per hour. So gains have been made in some areas.

 

[miamited]

Hi foxfyre,

You responded to another post:

US wages in the past 12 months:

Average wage and minimum wage are two completely separate economic measurements.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[JacksBratt]

Lots of reasons for high prices and low wages. Greed is only one, but the easiest to blame.

Oh, I am aware of the fact that there are other factors... however, greed isn't only the one easiest to blame... it's the biggest.

 

[JacksBratt]

US wages in the past 12 months:

In the United States, wages are benchmarked using average hourly earnings. Data relate to production employees in mining and logging and manufacturing, construction employees in construction, and nonsupervisory employees in the service-providing industries. These groups account for approximately four-fifths of the total employment on private nonfarm payrolls. This page provides - United States Average Hourly Wages - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. United States Average Hourly Wages - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on July of 2019.
United States Average Hourly Wages | 2019 | Data | Chart | Calendar

Jul 05, 2019 · U.S. workers are seeing the largest nominal wage increase in a decade, the Labor Department reported Wednesday, as companies compete harder for employees than they did in recent years. Wages rose ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Hmmmmm.... there are no "Trump" haters here saying how it's all his fault.... Funny that.

 

[JacksBratt]

Most corporate executives could halve their stock options and fund modest wage increases for their lowest paid employees.

I heard or read a news report, in January of this year that stated the fact that by the end of January most CEO's had earned the equivalent of most of their workers annual salary...

Like I said.... it's all driven by greed.

Most people like these CEO's have more money than they could spend in a lifetime.... meanwhile the people working for them live paycheck to paycheck, dreading some emergency that could bankrupt them.

 

[blackribbon]

Hi mukk,

My two cents worth...

I believe that the federal minimum wage should be raised. Pretty much everyone pays better than that minimum wage already. However, I'm not sure that $15 should be the standard nationwide. For federal minimum wage I'd be happy with $10-11/hour. Local municipalities and states are always able to raise minimum wages for a particular area where the cost of living may well be higher than much of the rest of the nation.

There are always articles that decry the damage that will be done every time raising the minimum wage comes up. So far, we haven't suffered an serious or lasting harm. Unfortunately, it seems to be just a short gain objective. We raise the minimum wage and for a short while those at the bottom of the food chain are making a little better income. However, after a year or two prices adjust and those same people find their buying power no better than it was before it all began.

However, I do believe that the federal minimum wage is out of step with most wage floors today.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

The damage is to people like me. I don't get even get cost of living raises now. So every time the minimum wage increases my dollar goes less far because product prices increase. If I can make $15 an hour to assemble a hamburger and not have the stress of 12 hour shifts or worrying about any of my patients dying and not have to touch blood, vomit, or poop...it might be time for a career change. I can imagine anyone willing to be a nurse aide or push stretchers anymore. Not if they can make the same as a fast food worker or other minimum wage job. The healthcare industry isn't going to give us any raises to make them get more than the minimum wage even though they do make more than the current min wage now

 

[Hank77]

I understand your position. It would be a nice world when we could rely on that honor system. But in this world asking the government to stay out of minimum wage as a policing agency would be kind of, but not quite, like not having police resolve disputes.

I agree. I don't think we want to go back to when there were no labor laws. That's when the was the rich and the poor and no middle class.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oh, I am aware of the fact that there are other factors... however, greed isn't only the one easiest to blame... it's the biggest.

I think ignorance is the biggest reason.

"Ve get so soon oldt undt so late schmart....." -Old German proverb.