Should Ministers get paid???

[LoveofTruth]

If God sets up plurality of elders in every church and the church met in their homes, and lets say an average home could hold 25 -35 people. and there were manybe 4 elders. Would such a small gathering be expected to pay these four men a full time wage? wouldn't this burden the church. What about the poor among them and what about the jobs these elders had?

 

[Tangible]

Paul had a miraculous, direct, and unique encounter with the risen Christ in a way that no longer occurs. He was baptized by the Church, and then went away and studied the scriptures for years. There were no seminaries at the time. After his years of study, he presented himself for review with the apostles at Jerusalem. They granted him the authority to preach Christ in accordance with what they had heard him preach.

Paul had the equivalent of a degree from the Apostle's seminary.

 

[Norah63]

thank you for that answer LoveofTruth, its mine too.
can't put a price tag on truth sharing.

 

[Tangible]

This is not true what you say here in so many ways. God gives the gifts, no man can buy his way into them or have others teach the gifts. Yes brothers can teach others from the anointing that teaches all things. but it is not a bought ministry. And there are no such things as Masters of Divinity in the body of Christ. Jesus alone is the master. Jesus said call no man master. So why do many do this?

Why do many people just stress the one man pastor, God gave a five fold aspect of gifts apostle, prophets, evangelist pastors and teachers. Yet somehow this one gift dominates Christendom.

and there is no justification in scripture for such a one man pastor getting a salary form the body. Only itinerant apostolic workers and preachers can get some benefits for their work. If a person wants to bless an elder from time to time that is ok, but not in a salary wage for him alone to dominate over all in his ministry. The whole body can minister to one another under Christ leading and they are commanded to be allowed to do this and let God work 1 Cor 14;26-38

A man prepares himself properly for the ministry. Jesus Christ calls him to the office of pastor through the calling of a local congregation.

 

[Tangible]

That's just silly. If you're going at it full time, you need to provide for the physical needs of yourself and your family. It is the congregations responsibility to support their pastor in his body so that he may support them in their faith.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul had a miraculous, direct, and unique encounter with the risen Christ in a way that no longer occurs. He was baptized by the Church, and then went away and studied the scriptures for years. There were no seminaries at the time. After his years of study, he presented himself for review with the apostles at Jerusalem. They granted him the authority to preach Christ in accordance with what they had heard him preach.

Paul had the equivalent of a degree from the Apostle's seminary.

lol lol

not true, he did not have a degree from any apostle seminary . Here's what Paul actually said,

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:1,11,12)

then he said

"But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:...But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."(Galatians 2:6,11)

a bit different than you are trying to twist it

 

[Tangible]

If God sets up plurality of elders in every church and the church met in their homes, and lets say an average home could hold 25 -35 people. and there were manybe 4 elders. Would such a small gathering be expected to pay these four men a full time wage? wouldn't this burden the church. What about the poor among them and what about the jobs these elders had?

That's why the early churches were set up on the synagogue model. Ten men were required to form a synagogue, who when giving one tenth of their earnings for the common good could support another man who lived off the ten one-tenth tithes of his congregation. Christians just changed from the tithe to whatever the congregational members could or would give for the support of the needs of the pastor.

 

[Tangible]

lol lol

not true, he did not have a degree from any apostle seminary . Here's what Paul actually said,

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:1,11,12)

then he said

"But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:...But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."(Galatians 2:6,11)

a bit different than you are trying to twist it

That's ridiculous. I'm out.

(Edited by poster to remove personal insult.)

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's just silly. If you're going at it full time, you need to provide for the physical needs of yourself and your family. It is the congregations responsibility to support their pastor in his body so that he may support them in their faith.

I use scripture and you just say "thats silly" hmmm

and show me scripture that says its "congregations responsibility to support their pastor". This is nowhere in the NT. We see elders plural over all, never a one man pastor over all. The times we see men dominating over others we see them in the negative read 3rd John 9,10 about Diotrephese who loved to have the pre eminnance among them, and 2 Cor 11 about the marks of false ministers and Acts 20 Paul warned night and day with tears that men would rise up among them to draw away disciples after them. And it is not just the pastor that helps the body, "every joint supplies" and every part of the body edifies itself in love, not just the pastor. What you speak here is the traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect. You go contrary to the scriptures in many places

read Ephesians 4;15,16 and Eph 4:10,11, and see that there is not just a pastor gift

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's why the early churches were set up on the synagogue model. Ten men were required to form a synagogue, who when giving one tenth of their earnings for the common good could support another man who lived off the ten one-tenth tithes of his congregation. Christians just changed from the tithe to whatever the congregational members could or would give for the support of the needs of the pastor.

absolutley wrong. Where do you get this stuff, you just make up whatever you think. Nowhere do we read that the early church which met in homes for about 300 years as led by the Spirit through the apostles were set up on the synagogue model. and tithing is not a New testament practice. Only the Levites had a command to take tithes and that was according to the law hebrews 7:5.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You're delusional. I'm out.

I quote scripture and you say Im delusional

and you come with your mans ideas and contrary to scripture

 

[Liberasit]

Here in the Church of England, the minister's package (stipend, housing, pension) is designed to be in line with a headteacher of a large primary school, to match their standing in society.

 

[LoveofTruth]

A man prepares himself properly for the ministry. Jesus Christ calls him to the office of pastor through the calling of a local congregation.

wrong again, God gave GIFTS unto men, some apostles ( which are for today also) some prophets ( which are for today also) some evangelist ( for today ) some pastors ( for today) and teachers ( for today)

no man can give these tho himself or study at a school to buy his way into these gifts, or have any other men make them in these gifts Paul was an apostle not of man or by man....

 

[Tangible]

May the spirit of Christ guide you into all truth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Here in the Church of England, the minister's package (stipend, housing, pension) is designed to be in line with a headteacher of a large primary school, to match their standing in society.

hello and God bless,

but read my original post again and slowly and consider what i say and read this from Paul

"And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words....Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Colossians 2:4,8)

 

[LoveofTruth]

May the spirit of Christ guide you into all truth.

all believers have the anointing that teaches them all things and john said we have no need that any man should teach us. Consider his words there

and I pray you come out of man made religion and gather with believers under Christ headship in homes and wait on him. Let no man think himself more highly than he ought to considering that God has dealt to every man the measure of faith and given to every man gifts for the body. Let the word of Christ dwell in all richly teaching and admonishing one another.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Heloo and God bless,

first of all you use the word "some churches are so big"

if you refer to the large man made Babylonian type edifices unbiblically called churches, this is not right. The church is the body of Christ not a building of man made of brick and mortar

And also there is nowhere in the NT that we see a man called a pastor over a whole church. yes there are pastor giftings, but there are also apostle, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, not just pastor gifts. And elders plural are in every church.

also, the function of the body, (not just pastor giftings) does many things, visits the poor and those who are sick, and evangelises, etc etc etc

You are confused over something. there are two churches, that are different, and the same thing. the universal church.. which is all christians everywhere, and the local church.. the one in the community that meet and worship together. You are also confused on church roles. The ROLE of a pastor doesn't make him king of the church. it is his role, just like we have the role of deacon, and other church roles. no church role is greater than the other, they are all equal in importance. we just add importance to the role subconsciously.

edit: what do I mean add importance? in every culture you have woman roles and men roles.. jobs that they do that are culturally acceptable. now in some cultures milking cows is the woman's job, and in other cultures it is the mens job. but there is one universal thing that applies in all cultures.. the men's role is always seen as more important for some reason. The pastor is usually a man and I think it applies to that as well. it a "mans role" and so people apply unbiblical prestige to the role of a pastor.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are confused over something. there are two churches, that are different, and the same thing. the universal church.. which is all christians everywhere, and the local church.. the one in the community that meet and worship together. You are also confused on church roles. The ROLE of a pastor doesn't make him king of the church. it is his role, just like we have the role of deacon, and other church roles. no church role is greater than the other, they are all equal in importance. we just add importance to the role subconsciously.

edit: what do I mean add importance? in every culture you have woman roles and men roles.. jobs that they do that are culturally acceptable. now in some cultures milking cows is the woman's job, and in other cultures it is the mens job. but there is one universal thing that applies in all cultures.. the men's role is always seen as more important for some reason. The pastor is usually a man and I think it applies to that as well. it a "mans role" and so people apply unbiblical prestige to the role of a pastor.

The church is the body of Christ where he is the head as scripture teaches. yes the church (meaning ekklesia, or the called out assembly) does meet in homes in different areas. And when i speak of the function of the church I speak of when the whole church comes together in one place 1 Cor 14.

 

[CalmRon]

Hello and God bless,


You use the word "laymen". This is an error. There is a false clergy and laity division in the body, that is not biblical. the word clergy comes from the Greek word Kleros, meaning a lot or inheritance , and all believers are the inheritance of God. The word laity comes form "the people", and all believers are the people of God. By creating this dominance of men over others the church followed in the 3rd century, the pagan leaders in gentile rule, that Jesus said we are not to be like.

"they looked for a pastor"..This sounds like the OT when they didnt want to hear God speak directly and rule over them through His word in the prophets. They said "give us a king to rule over us" God rebuked them for it and told the prophet to warn them and said they rejected God from ruling over them. This is similar today in many places I fear.

Also, if your gathering had followed Gods order they would have ordained elders in every church. Not one man over all. We never see this one man pastor gift over a whole church in the NT. and pastors are just one of the gifts. God gave apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. Not just pastors.

Well in my church there are no prophets, or apostles. There are evangelists and teachers but those are more just tossed around rather than actual offices and titles. There is pastor, deacons and lay people.

Its not for you to determine whose church or denomination have followed God, because there is no church that is what Jesus intended. Reading the first few chapters of revelation will tell you that much.

 

[Albion]

Hello again and God bless,

I believe there is a right and wrong way. As Jesus said freely you have received and freely give.

And Paul showed by example and word that the Ephesians elders should work with their own hands and not covet mens gold or silver.

Hello again. If that's the kind of do-it-yourself church you admire...go for it. I've known some myself, and they were OK, just barely. They were nothing that could be called better than those with paid pastors.

The smaller gatherings were wheat the early church used to change the world. They met in homes around Christ.

...which shows you, right there, that those were small gatherings. As I said before, those are the only ones that can make do with volunteer pastors these days.