Should It Really Be Tolerated?

[Subordinationist]

Preserving sexual purity is needless and cruel. It subjugates young women and frustrates young men.

It is a choice: sex outside marriage, sex inside marriage, no sex at all, etc.; whether you feel "subjugated" or "frustrated" is up to you. I happen to not feel frustrated about being a virgin. I personally know about five young girls who are not "subjugated" nor feel "subjugated" by believing in no sex before marriage.

It may have value to a deity but that shouldn't be our concern.

"Our" concern? Who are you to decide the concerns of an entire nation of children, heck, all children?

Those little tykes who choose to be celibate will certainly find a way.

So those who want to be sexually pure are "tykes" (by definition, children who are crude, uncouth, or ill-bred)?

As to the rest, this is school we are talking about, not every aspect of life. School should be for grounding an individual in critical thought and the basic tools needed to become an employable member of society. Children and young adults lived for centuries making their own art, music, and sports without your help. They would again if we left them the hell alone. Now every kid plays sports and half of them can't read at their grade level.

I personally believe public school and school "standards" should be abolished. In favor of private schools and homeschooling and...no school at all! (experience is also a great teacher) On this subject I recommend the works of John Taylor Gatto.

I won, you lose, out.

How could you win an argument of opinions?



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[morningstar2651]

I have a few questions for all of you guys out there.

What would you consider sexual harrasment? What do you think schools should do to prevent it? Would you let it go on in your child's school? And what can be done to educate children about it?

I'll share part of my story to let you understand why Im asking this. I've always had a big problem in school, Starting in 8th grade several nasty rumors were started about me, including one about a hairbrush. I was harassed on a daily basis, and finally I decided to press charges on all the students, and the teachers that were involved (Yes the teachers were actually engaging in it.) By 9th grade the rumors escalated, and it went from rumors to people adding on and calling me a lesbian and a dike and spreading more rumors. After thanksgiving I got my hair cut short, which made the rumors short. Again we spent another year filing reports on students and teachers, and even had meetings with the district. And to this day- to a degree, the harrasment hasnt stopped. For the most part Ive learned to deal with it. But I want to know what could be done to prevent it for others in the future, and what might be different ways of handling situations like mine.

Thanks Very Much For Your Comments and Opinions!

It need not be sexual to be harassment.

The police are your friends.

One useful thing to do is to keep a journal of stuff people say and do -- one with dates and times.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Nonsense.

Quite correct. He was wrong to say that abstinence is 'cruel and pointless'. It obviously does have a point - whether that point is a desirable one is another question.

Abstinence preserves sexual purity (by definition).

Abstinence preserves virginity (assuming you were a virgin to start with). I'm not sure what 'sexual purity' is supposed to mean - if it just means 'virginity', then I agree.

The value of sexual purity can be seen

It can? Not by me.

in a culture where 50% of all worries revolve around sexual issues (especially teens, as you say).

Where did you pull that statistic from? Regardless, your point is that people have a lot of worries around sexual issues, which is true. However, what you haven't shown is how abstinence solves any of them. Do you honestly think that if teens were all abstinent, they would stop having worries about the opposite sex, about who 'likes' them, whether so-and-so even knows they're alive and so forth?

It terms of Christianity, abstinence has immense value.

And in terms of many religions, human sacrifice has immense value. So what?

Jesus

He was? Please cite any evidence you have that Jesus was abstinent for his lifetime.

Paul

Yeah, and look what it did to him.

several OT prophets, etc. were all seemingly abstinent.

Poor guys.

Paul himself says that abstinece is preferable to marriage, "but not a commandment of the Lord".

Pretty good thing nearly everyone ignored him, isn't it? Or the human race would have died out long ago. Not to mention that it's kind of funny...Paul saying abstinence is preferable to marriage, when marriage is supposedly a God-ordained union...

Paul said abstinence was preferable to marriage because he thought the world was going to end literally any day. He was wrong, so his thoughts on the matter are pretty irrelevant.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

I personally believe public school and school "standards" should be abolished. In favor of private schools and homeschooling and...no school at all! (experience is also a great teacher) On this subject I recommend the works of John Taylor Gatto.

That would be great. A nation - no, a world - of illiterates who think creationism is science.

 

[Clem is Me]

Yeah I did, But I dont see why you were discussing that in the first place....

Sexual aggression and cruelty does not occur in a vaccuum. I was a teenager and I remember all that stuff. It was torture, and I saw how it affected the girls, too. It makes you angry and fustrated and I can't imagine it doesn't spill out from time to time. After that I decided that, instead of trying to exacerbate the problem it might be nice to talk about solving it. Of couse that doesn't go over real well with the kind of people I inhabit the world with.

 

[Clem is Me]

It is a choice: sex outside marriage, sex inside marriage, no sex at all, etc.; whether you feel "subjugated" or "frustrated" is up to you. I happen to not feel frustrated about being a virgin. I personally know about five young girls who are not "subjugated" nor feel "subjugated" by believing in no sex before marriage.



"Our" concern? Who are you to decide the concerns of an entire nation of children, heck, all children?



So those who want to be sexually pure are "tykes" (by definition, children who are crude, uncouth, or ill-bred)?



I personally believe public school and school "standards" should be abolished. In favor of private schools and homeschooling and...no school at all! (experience is also a great teacher) On this subject I recommend the works of John Taylor Gatto.



How could you win an argument of opinions?



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I won because I was better at it than you. Who I am is someone who cares more about how we get along and achieve things than how some God wants us to be. Tykes is an expression and you are way too sensitive. And if you and five others are happy being celibate, you tykes are welcome to it.

 

[Subordinationist]

Regardless, your point is that people have a lot of worries around sexual issues, which is true. However, what you haven't shown is how abstinence solves any of them.

Some might say, that having no sex builds up the "pressure" and causes more worries (thankfully we have nocturnal emissions, which some people forget that we have), but abstinence is a religious and moral choice. In sex's place comes everything from sports to art to work to education to para-sailing. Again, abstinence is not for everyone, or even 1/5 of everyone. It is something that should be taught as an alternative, voluntary, and is regarded as something that should be widespread only for the teen years, when abolescents should be focusing on education and preparedness for their lives (unless you think teen pregnacy and sexual obsession is healthy for youth).

And in terms of many religions, human sacrifice has immense value. So what?

I'd just like to point you to the name of this forum: CHRISTIAN Forums. I am a Christian and I value Christian teachings and beliefs. The correlation between killing people and preserving virginity until marriage is nonexistent.

Please cite any evidence you have that Jesus was abstinent for his lifetime.

The Bible. You were expecting something else?

Or the human race would have died out long ago. Not to mention that it's kind of funny...Paul saying abstinence is preferable to marriage, when marriage is supposedly a God-ordained union...

If you actually think Paul expected the majority of the human race to be Christian, and follow his preference (because it was not a command) then you are mistaken. Paul's suggestion of lifelong celibacy was not mandatory, nor was marriage wrong in his eyes. He said "let them marry, they sin not". Just one more time for reference, it was Paul's opinion.

He was wrong, so his thoughts on the matter are pretty irrelevant.

He was not wrong in the eyes of over a billion individuals who happen to be Christians. I don't think the thoughts of Marx, Muhammad, the Buddha, Zeus, or Freud are irrelevant, even if they are wrong, isn't it arrogant to assume Paul's are?

That would be great. A nation - no, a world - of illiterates who think creationism is science.

Don't be silly, there would be just as many private Atheist Schools, as private Agnostic Schools, and Buddhist Schools, and Christian Schools, and Evolutionist Schools, and Islamic Schools, etc. Its very totalitarian of you to force-feed an entire nation - no, a world - your beliefs that people who go to private schools and homeschools are illiterate, and that creationism isn't just as much a valid theory as macro-evolution. Its also very authoritarian and statist of you to coerce people to have to go to government schools, and then by way of universal educational dictatorship shove whatever you want down their collective throats. Education should be left to the parents, the family, and when the child has reached a certain level, the child his-or-herself.

I won because I was better at it than you.

Better at stating opinions?

Who I am is someone who cares more about how we get along and achieve things than how some God wants us to be.

God cares about people too. Just because you don't think He does doesn't mean he doesn't. In fact, the way He wants us to be is directly helpful to achieving friendship, peace, and harmony.

Tykes is an expression and you are way too sensitive.

You are way too rude. Why not move to an agnostic forum where you can badger the believer's all you want?

And if you and five others are happy being celibate, you tykes are welcome to it..

Thank you, but I am probably going to get married when I am ready. Lifelong celibacy is most likely not going to happen. I am waiting until I am out of the teen years and find a great wife.



PS: I also like how you side-stepped almost all my responses into one several-sentenced reply.



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[morningstar2651]

Please cite any evidence you have that Jesus was abstinent for his lifetime.

The Bible. You were expecting something else?

The Bible skips quite a few years of his life.

Just because it isn't in the Bible, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The absence of proof is not the proof of absence. Argumentum ad ignorantium.

 

[Subordinationist]

The Bible skips quite a few years of his life.

Just because it isn't in the Bible, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The absence of proof is not the proof of absence. Argumentum ad ignorantium.

Granted. But the fact that his romantic life is totally ignored or seemingly nonexistent should be taken into account, when we read the views of Paul, whose beliefs were based on the teachings of Christ. Paul's preference for celibacy, the ignoring and absence of Jesus-romance and Apostle-romace, and Jesus' tale of no marriage in heaven, should not be over-looked or down-played.


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[Dukey]

I have a few questions for all of you guys out there.

What would you consider sexual harrasment? What do you think schools should do to prevent it? Would you let it go on in your child's school? And what can be done to educate children about it?

I'll share part of my story to let you understand why Im asking this. I've always had a big problem in school, Starting in 8th grade several nasty rumors were started about me, including one about a hairbrush. I was harassed on a daily basis, and finally I decided to press charges on all the students, and the teachers that were involved (Yes the teachers were actually engaging in it.) By 9th grade the rumors escalated, and it went from rumors to people adding on and calling me a lesbian and a dike and spreading more rumors. After thanksgiving I got my hair cut short, which made the rumors short. Again we spent another year filing reports on students and teachers, and even had meetings with the district. And to this day- to a degree, the harrasment hasnt stopped. For the most part Ive learned to deal with it. But I want to know what could be done to prevent it for others in the future, and what might be different ways of handling situations like mine.

Thanks Very Much For Your Comments and Opinions!

sexual harrassment is when some strange looking guy stares at a lady too many times

 

[Randall McNally]

Granted. But the fact that his romantic life is totally ignored or seemingly nonexistent should be taken into account, when we read the views of Paul, whose beliefs were based on the teachings of Christ. Paul's preference for celibacy, the ignoring and absence of Jesus-romance and Apostle-romace, and Jesus' tale of no marriage in heaven, should not be over-looked or down-played.

Paul's preference for celibacy should also not be overlooked as motivation for why he might have omitted certain... incongruous details about Jesus' life.

 

[alli_boo]

It need not be sexual to be harassment.

The police are your friends.

One useful thing to do is to keep a journal of stuff people say and do -- one with dates and times.

Doesnt help in a system that is corrupt. But I did write everything down with the dates of icendents, time it occured, witnesses, and I even had the date. Wich makes me very upset that nothing was done to anyone.

 

[alli_boo]

Sexual aggression and cruelty does not occur in a vaccuum. I was a teenager and I remember all that stuff. It was torture, and I saw how it affected the girls, too. It makes you angry and fustrated and I can't imagine it doesn't spill out from time to time. After that I decided that, instead of trying to exacerbate the problem it might be nice to talk about solving it. Of couse that doesn't go over real well with the kind of people I inhabit the world with.

Ok w/e.... not even going there.

 

[Subordinationist]

Paul's preference for celibacy should also not be overlooked as motivation for why he might have omitted certain... incongruous details about Jesus' life.

Paul did not write the Gospels, and there were also the other Apostles (and Prophets) whose romantic life was ignored and or nonexistent in non-Paulian Scriptures.



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[alli_boo]

I won because I was better at it than you. Who I am is someone who cares more about how we get along and achieve things than how some God wants us to be. Tykes is an expression and you are way too sensitive. And if you and five others are happy being celibate, you tykes are welcome to it.

Heh a pointless arguement that had nothing to do with the orginal post anyways. Im sorry but I dont see how you can win anyways, Its just everyone's opinions. So your winning over anothers opinions? Hmmm doesnt sound right does it? More like you just made a fool of yourself.

 

[tryptophan]

Make sure the teachers know that what they and the students are doing is sexual harassment. Then remind them that they need to report any sexual harassment that happens by law, or else they will face the legal system. And if they continue, they will lose their job and might even end up in jail.

P.S. Could we get off this pointless conversation which has nothing to do with the OP?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Sexual aggression and cruelty does not occur in a vaccuum. I was a teenager and I remember all that stuff. It was torture, and I saw how it affected the girls, too. It makes you angry and fustrated and I can't imagine it doesn't spill out from time to time. After that I decided that, instead of trying to exacerbate the problem it might be nice to talk about solving it. Of couse that doesn't go over real well with the kind of people I inhabit the world with.

Solve sexuality problems by using physical force and (apparently) the threat of starvation to "encourage" good grades along with eliminating the arts from school. Right.

Interestingly enough, the only suggestion you made with any merit at all,
single sex jr high and high school, was one of two that had any bearing on the subject.

The other being encouraging boys to think that sex is something you do with harlots... you never did answer me, are you allowing sex with spouses or boyfriend/girlfriends? And if so at what age?

You're right though, fascism doesn't go over well here-abouts

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

I won because I was better at it than you.

A legend in his own mind...

Who I am is someone who cares more about how we get along and achieve things than how some God wants us to be. Tykes is an expression and you are way too sensitive. And if you and five others are happy being celibate, you tykes are welcome to it.

Yes, it is an expression, one that is highly insulting when applied to anybody above the age 6.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

The Bible skips quite a few years of his life.
Just because it isn't in the Bible, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
The absence of proof is not the proof of absence. Argumentum ad ignorantium.

The Torah forbids sex outside of marriage, Jesus's family is mentioned, but no wife,
He put his mother in the care of the beloved disciple, but makes no arrangements for his wife or children (and apparently has no children who are old enough to take care of his mother),
Jesus declared that looking at women for the purpose of sexual pleasure was committing adultery in the heart,
He was the flawless lamb, i.e. sinless

You'll excuse me if I think you are the one engaging in argumentum ad ignorantium.

 

[Believer-in-Christ]

If you are sure that something isn't right baout how someone is behaving around you then you need to report it. It is a tricky issue to know what is and what isn't. It's better to be sure through investigation.