Should I stay, go or wait?

[Dave-W]

cling to Puritanical traditions not founded in scripture.

Perhaps that should read "cling to Puritanical traditions not founded on my interpretation of scripture..."

Whether something is "founded in scripture" or not (unless it says it flat out in your face THOU SHALT NOT...) is a matter of interpretation; and that varies widely according to faith tradition and personal conviction.

Many interpret Matt 5.28 as an absolute ban on seeing nude women.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Perhaps that should read "cling to Puritanical traditions not founded on my interpretation of scripture..."

Whether something is "founded in scripture" or not (unless it says it flat out in your face THOU SHALT NOT...) is a matter of interpretation; and that varies widely according to faith tradition and personal conviction.

Perhaps.

Of course, you're second paragraph is basically a paraphrase of what I just said.

 

[Mudinyeri]

And if looking at nudity is not sin, why don't dirty old men under lenient leadership bring their favorite magazines to church? Or do they?

To everything there is a time and place.

I attended a VERY conservative, legalistic "Christian" university. In their art museum were paintings that depicted nudity. Was church the place for those? Probably not. Was their museum? Apparently so.

 

[unfinishedclay]

Perhaps that should read "cling to Puritanical traditions not founded on my interpretation of scripture..."

Whether something is "founded in scripture" or not (unless it says it flat out in your face THOU SHALT NOT...) is a matter of interpretation; and that varies widely according to faith tradition and personal conviction.

Many interpret Matt 5.28 as an absolute ban on seeing nude women.

And what about crack cocaine usage? Or other dangerous drugs?

Bottom Line
Matthew 7:21 tells us that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of God but he who does the will of the Father.

And what's the point in pointing out the sin of looking at naked women to you, when you with your prudent assessment of passages (Matthew 11:25, Luke 8:10), have already negated how it relates to lust. Sorry. But you're too full of your own accomplished knowledge to even have a discussion with on why it's sin for a man to be looking at naked women whether he's married or not. (I Corinthians 1:25-31)

To even point out that looking at another woman naked violate Jesus' command that we do unto others as we'd have them do unto us (which covers so much; as His command to love covers all), you'd have something to argue. (Luke 6:31) This sister's husband wouldn't want her betraying him with certain types of act, so why would he commit one against her by looking at naked women? Even a man who doesn't want his wife flirting with another man is not doing unto her as he would have her do unto him if he looks at porn.

Brother, study your own history of posts. You're full of your own accomplished knowledge and you can't tune in to what the Lord is telling His people like that. Even coveting anything of our neighbors includes coveting a view of their body - whether they willfully make it available for us to view or not. It's an act of lovelessness to be looking at such photos or stripping or whatever. And the law hangs on loving the Lord with all our heart, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. Would you let a man look at a naked photo of your mother? your sister? your daughter? Your WIFE?? Why would you look at a naked photo of someone who could be someone's loved one?

(Exodus 20:17; Matthew 22:37-40; Luke 6:31)

 

[Dave-W]

I attended a VERY conservative, legalistic "Christian" university. In their art museum were paintings that depicted nudity. Was church the place for those? Probably not. Was their museum? Apparently so.

Interesting. I remember when Bush 2 appointed an Attorney General (Ashcroft) who was offended by "lady justice" statues that had bare breasts.

When my son was looking for a college we purviewed many including some very conservative christian ones. There was one in Florida that had in their rules how long a belt could stick thru the buckle, so as to not look like a "phallus."

 

[Mudinyeri]

When my son was looking for a college we purviewed many including some very conservative christian ones. There was one in Florida that had in their rules how long a belt could stick thru the buckle, so as to not look like a "phallus."

This one was slightly north of that one and had an even larger rule book.

 

[unfinishedclay]

Interesting. I remember when Bush 2 appointed an Attorney General (Ashcroft) who was offended by "lady justice" statues that had bare breasts.

When my son was looking for a college we purviewed many including some very conservative christian ones. There was one in Florida that had in their rules how long a belt could stick thru the buckle, so as to not look like a "phallus."

When has how we decorate our universities set the standards for God?

 

[unfinishedclay]

Brothers, you two are two examples of why many wives become discouraged even after marital counseling. Trying to take husbands before witnesses to explain actions as being wrong, unfair, unloving, and, yes, sinful can be very frustrating for women who are trying their best but can find no one with sound judgment to speak up. Too full of your accomplishments and grading yourselves with Ace knowledge on your theologies. You can't even be effective.

And that's not stone-throwing. That's saddening observation.

 

[Dave-W]

Brothers, you two are two examples of why many wives become discouraged even after marital counseling.

You know nothing of my marriage. (assuming I am one of those "two.") I have had plenty of reason and opportunity to take my wife before a counselor and/or other authority figure to work on things. But the reason she is the way she is is because of ongoing abuse as a child and some very bad teaching from her mother and church. It has not allowed her and I to emotionally bond which affects other things as well. That has pretty much left me in a vacuum for 39 years. And it will continue on the same for the rest of our lives.

I demand nothing from her. In fact, I have spent years convincing her my desires and "needs" are inconsequential. And I have tried to give her every emotional and physical (and financial) support I can. If she did not want to have a job, she could be sitting around the house doing what ever or going wherever she wanted any time she wanted.

How exactly are my actions "... wrong, unfair, unloving, and, yes, sinful?"

 

[Mudinyeri]

When has how we decorate our universities set the standards for God?

You missed my point.

Brothers, you two are two examples of why many wives become discouraged even after marital counseling. Trying to take husbands before witnesses to explain actions as being wrong, unfair, unloving, and, yes, sinful can be very frustrating for women who are trying their best but can find no one with sound judgment to speak up. Too full of your accomplishments and grading yourselves with Ace knowledge on your theologies. You can't even be effective.

And that's not stone-throwing. That's saddening observation.

Here's the odd thing. My wife and I are very much in love after nearly 28 years together. She is not discouraged. She needs no "counseling." She is a strong, confident and beautiful woman. If your "saddening observation" was true, my marriage would be a shambles and my wife would be a mess.

What you don't account for in your worldview is liberty. As a Christian and a good husband - my wife might even say "husband of the year" - my liberty is limited by expediency. If my wife came to me and said, "I don't want to go to any more cabaret shows (her idea, by the way) because the nudity bothers me," it would be my duty as a husband to agree. (No big argument from me on that point. I don't particularly like cabaret shows.)

In addition to liberty, your worldview leaves out a personal relationship with Christ - a relationship where the Holy Spirit convicts me differently than he does you or Dave or anyone else. I'm not talking about quenching the spirit and ignoring conviction. I'm talking about seeking out conviction, about wrestling with sin and fleeing temptation.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Which two brothers are you referring to?

I believe you and me, brother.

 

[Dave-W]

I believe you and me, brother.

Yeah - I got that after re-reading the last pages of the posts.

 

[unfinishedclay]

You missed my point.

Happy for your wife. I admit I advocate the sisters often. BTW she is ONE woman.

Here's the odd thing. My wife and I are very much in love after nearly 28 years together. She is not discouraged. She needs no "counseling." She is a strong, confident and beautiful woman. If your "saddening observation" was true, my marriage would be a shambles and my wife would be a mess.

What you don't account for in your worldview is liberty. As a Christian and a good husband - my wife might even say "husband of the year" - my liberty is limited by expediency. If my wife came to me and said, "I don't want to go to any more cabaret shows (her idea, by the way) because the nudity bothers me," it would be my duty as a husband to agree. (No big argument from me on that point. I don't particularly like cabaret shows.)

In addition to liberty, your worldview leaves out a personal relationship with Christ - a relationship where the Holy Spirit convicts me differently than he does you or Dave or anyone else. I'm not talking about quenching the spirit and ignoring conviction. I'm talking about seeking out conviction, about wrestling with sin and fleeing temptation.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Happy for your wife. I admit I advocate the sisters often. BTW she is ONE woman.

Thank you for being happy for my wife. You've demonstrated my point exactly! We are all individuals with individual relationships ... with Christ and with one another. Had I married another woman, I would have treated her differently. The butter-spread approach rarely works.

I, too, advocate for "the sisters." I work with a number of charities that help women. I don't, however, advocate for the exact same treatment of every single woman ... or man, for that matter.

 

[FireDragon76]

God has forgiven you, so you should forgive your husband. He's said he's sorry. Just accept it, move on, and if need be, seeking counselling. Don't be so moralistic, it actually sounds like both of you have had a really tough time, and sometimes that can motivate people to do the wrong thing. Until you can admit that, you are going to find forgiveness hard.

 

[unfinishedclay]

Thank you for being happy for my wife. You've demonstrated my point exactly! We are all individuals with individual relationships ... with Christ and with one another. Had I married another woman, I would have treated her differently. The butter-spread approach rarely works.

I, too, advocate for "the sisters." I work with a number of charities that help women. I don't, however, advocate for the exact same treatment of every single woman ... or man, for that matter.

Okay Brother. You have won your argument of the day. You get an A. Now maybe swill can feel a whole lot better about her concern in her original post. Good for you. It's your world and all wives and husbands should pattern themselves out of y'all's marriage-saving pattern.

 

[unfinishedclay]

God has forgiven you, so you should forgive your husband. He's said he's sorry. Just accept it, move on, and if need be, seeking counselling. Don't be so moralistic, it actually sounds like both of you have had a really tough time, and sometimes that can motivate people to do the wrong thing. Until you can admit that, you are going to find forgiveness hard.

If she expresses an issue of distress over what he's doing in this detail that doesn't necessarily make this an issue of whether she forgives him. (And she may need to forgive him in other case.) But after forgiveness, the problem still needs to be dealt with if she's having a hard time and many people with hearts would see why she would have an issue. Forgiveness is a first step. There is more for healing. That's the case with many couples.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Okay Brother. You have won your argument of the day. You get an A. Now maybe swill can feel a whole lot better about her concern in her original post. Good for you. It's your world and all wives and husbands should pattern themselves out of y'all's marriage-saving pattern.

I wish I could lay claim to the idea of treating individuals ... as individuals.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

 

[unfinishedclay]

How exactly are my actions "... wrong, unfair, unloving, and, yes, sinful?"

I have to clarify that I was posting about ineffectiveness as a witness or counselor in a setting where a couple needs your help as a leader.