Should I protest or let them be?

[Gukkor]

The whole point and purpose of neo-paganism is to somehow be "spiritual" without having to be Christian. I have yet to find a pagan who actually believes in a "horned god" or a "goddess", it's simply a means of proclaiming "I'm not a Christian, so there!" It isn't a religion so much as it is a role-playing game gone amok.

And I'm supposed to respect that? Fat chance.

Wow, really? I do, in fact, know genuine believers in the Horned God and the Goddess. Way to judge an entire group based upon your experience with certain individuals, bud.

And you say they only do this to spite Christians? I've met precious few neo-pagans who are actually hostile toward Christianity, neither explicitly nor implicitly.

 

[OnTheWay]

If it's being sponsered in any way by local government sue, that's illegal promotion of religion.

 

[OnTheWay]

Wicca is a joke, truely a sign of the times when we've got plastic made to order paganism for sale on the internet.

There's nothing pagan about it. It's a mish mash of modern political movements and a few pagan symbols. If a Wiccan ever met a real pagan they'd wet themselves with fear. The Romans and the Vikings didn't sit around worshipping "the goddess" and some trees. They were brutal militarists, as were their gods, and they'd kill you just as soon as look at you. If you aren't scraficing a ram to Mithras on a regular basis you aren't a pagan.

OTW walks away mumbling, "granola eating nancy boys........"

 

[CardinalBaseball]

I just found out that the town I live in is having some kind of pagan/witch/whatever gathering in late September and I keep feeling like I should be doing something about this. They are having it in a public park, have invited the local media and are just flaunting their godlessness in everyone's faces. Of course everyone is invited. Should I just ignore it and go about my business or should I stand up and protest this "event?" A few friends and I have been talking about going to witness to these people but we have no idea how to talk about God and Jesus to them or even the best way to start. I want to do more than just hold up signs, I want to be more "hands on" with this. It just feels like God is telling me this is the path He wants me to take. Any advice? Has anyone ever seen one of these gatherings and been able to talk to the people there?

Well, protesting something that's completely legal is not right. So don't. Witnessing on the other hand is fine. It seems like it would be a great chance.

 

[Gukkor]

Wicca is a joke, truely a sign of the times when we've got plastic made to order paganism for sale on the internet.

There's nothing pagan about it. It's a mish mash of modern political movements and a few pagan symbols. If a Wiccan ever met a real pagan they'd wet themselves with fear. The Romans and the Vikings didn't sit around worshipping "the goddess" and some trees. They were brutal militarists, as were their gods, and they'd kill you just as soon as look at you. If you aren't scraficing a ram to Mithras on a regular basis you aren't a pagan.

OTW walks away mumbling, "granola eating nancy boys........"

Actually, there's a sect of neo-paganism that does, in fact, worship the Norse panetheon. Called Asatru, if I recall correctly.

Also, why would Vikings sacrifice a ram to Mithras on a regular basis? Are they then not pagan if they don't?

Yes, I was being hyper-anal on that last point. And yes, I did enjoy it.

 

[Konkurrent]

I find it absolutely hilarious that people are actually saying "unless they come and protest at your church you've got no reason to protest them".

Did we all skip Bible School? Does "turn the other cheek" sound familiar? Even if they were to protest at your church doesn't make protesting back the right thing to do. It's not "Do unto others as they have done unto you."

Unbelievable.


Leave them alone. Yes, they're headed down the wrong path but they have the right to go where they want. Every single human being has the right to go to hell if they wish. It's not your job to drag them kicking and screaming into heaven, and you're never going to convince me someone that lives in America hasn't heard of Jesus Christ and what he did for us.

There's a time and place to spread the Word. At someone else's religious ceremonies is not it. All you do there is teach more people that the Christian faith is one of aggression and intolerance, and frankly there's too many people doing that already.

 

[~A.Pure.Heart~]

If God were watching you, which He is, what would you do?

 

[OnTheWay]

Actually, there's a sect of neo-paganism that does, in fact, worship the Norse panetheon. Called Asatru, if I recall correctly.

Actually, I've known a fair share of "Asatruars." The vast majority of them are ethnic nationalists with quasi-National Socialist leanings. They are interested in Germanic gods from a cultural point of view. The non-political types like to dress up and play with swords in the woods. They neither believe in the literal existance of the Germanic gods nor to they actually practice the old German religion. Wiccans are even less pagan.

Also, why would Vikings sacrifice a ram to Mithras on a regular basis? Are they then not pagan if they don't?

If you knew much about the Viking religion you'd know there would be no reason not to worship Mithras. Vikings were very pragmatic about their religion and generally thought that divine help was divine help. Considering that Christianity was embraced at first as an addition to their religion they'd have been more than happy to add Mithras to the pantheon as well.

 

[Gukkor]

Actually, I've known a fair share of "Asatruars." The vast majority of them are ethnic nationalists with quasi-National Socialist leanings. They are interested in Germanic gods from a cultural point of view. The non-political types like to dress up and play with swords in the woods. They neither believe in the literal existance of the Germanic gods nor to they actually practice the old German religion. Wiccans are even less pagan.



If you knew much about the Viking religion you'd know there would be no reason not to worship Mithras. Vikings were very pragmatic about their religion and generally thought that divine help was divine help. Considering that Christianity was embraced at first as an addition to their religion they'd have been more than happy to add Mithras to the pantheon as well.

I'm fully aware of the Vikings' rather eclectic view of religion, but the fact of the matter is, they never did regularly sacrifice to Mithras, so according to that criterion, they wouldn't be pagan. Furthermore, I was being facetious, so this exchange is rather pointless.

In any case, I get your point. A "pagan" is not the same thing as a pagan. A nominal follower of a religion isn't a true follower of that religion at all.

 

[PaulAckermann]

I couldn't disagree more.

MikeMcK hit it dead on when he pointed out that this is a spiritual battle and not a political one. These people don't need lawyers. They need Jesus.

Sure its a spiritual one, but that does not mean we cannot use all of the means that God has given us at our disposal.

Using your logic, we Christians should not worry about voting for pro-life candidates because abortion is a spiritual battle not a political one. We Christians should not vote against same-sex marriages, because homosexuality is a spiritual battle not a political one.

Besides, if the ACLU is wrong when they do it to Christians, then wouldn't you be just as wrong doing it to pagans?

No, it is called equal protection under the law. If we are going to use separation of church and state as a reason for a town not promoting Christianity, then it cannot promote paganism, either. If you supress only one religion and not the another religion, the ones of the supressed religion are right to object that this is discriminating one religion over the other.


We Christians have every right to be treated by the government the same way as any other religion is. Even the Apostle used the Roman law to protest his right as a Roman citizen to have a a hearing before Caesar. Jesus told us to be wise as serpent but gentle as doves. As long as the government gives us an opportunity to pursue political and legal means, we should take it. Christians used their political influence to abolish the slave trade. The Christian abolitionists used political means to end slavery. If the government sponsors something pagan, then they should also sponsor something Christian. If the government suppresses something Christian, then they should suppress something pagan.

This is not at all what the ACLU is doing. They go after anything that is Christian and tolerate anything that is pagan. If the ACLU was being objective, they would themselves have filed a lawsuit against the town already. This shows that government-sponsored paganism is not on their radar. I would respect the ACLU if they had been applying separation of church and state across the board without exception. But they don't. What is wrong with the ACLU is that they only apply this separation of church and state against Christianity. There is nothing wrong in forcing the government to enforce this rule consistently, with paganism as well as Christianity.

 

[MadJack]

Jack, you don't happen to live in New Jersey, do you?

I just heard that there's going to be a similar gathering here on Sept 20.

No, I live just outside of the city of Rochester in NY. As far as the pagans having support of the town I'm not sure. I know they did have to get a permit to use the park for this because there will be people selling stuff so I'm not totally sure.

 

[Konkurrent]

Saying that the pagans have the support of the town because no one's kicking them out or burning them at the stake is like saying the Christians have the support of the town because it says "In God We Trust" on the money.

Oh wait, it does. Why are we complaining because they're allowed to not follow God?

 

[PaulAckermann]

I have no problem with allowing them follow their own pagan beliefs.

But if it is an event that is sponsored by the town, then that means that the taxes of Christians are paying for this event. This is wrong. In fact, it is illegal.

 

[Konkurrent]

Who's saying it's "sponsored by the town"? Is there any proof of that?

 

[PaulAckermann]

Who's saying it's "sponsored by the town"? Is there any proof of that?

That is how I read it.

I just found out that the town I live in is having some kind of pagan/witch/whatever gathering in late September and I keep feeling like I should be doing something about this.


If the town is having this event, then is an event sponsored by the town.

Now, if there is a miscommunication here, and it is not sponsored by the town, then I would agree not to pursue any legal action, or even to protest.

 

[Konkurrent]

Oh, I'd wager a hefty sum that this is just a bit of lazy language use. By saying the town is having it just means that it's happening in that town.

It's like saying "the town is having a new Wal-Mart built". The town isn't building the Wal-Mart... Satan is. Oh wait, I mean "Wal-Mart is". (Same thing, but I digress.)


What's most likely is that the group behind the gathering applied for permission to use a public park or something (as is everyone's right to do for a peaceful assembly under the US Constitution) and the town - not being a theocracy - approved them.


The town can no more deny a pagan group the right to assemble in a park because they're pagan than it could deny a church the right to have a church picnic in the park because they're Christian. Any reason for denial or approval must be independent of relgion.

 

[PastorJim]

Sure its a spiritual one, but that does not mean we cannot use all of the means that God has given us at our disposal.

Using your logic, we Christians should not worry about voting for pro-life candidates because abortion is a spiritual battle not a political one. We Christians should not vote against same-sex marriages, because homosexuality is a spiritual battle not a political one.

Two different things.

That would be voting to change public policy.

What you're talking about is just harrassing someone and taking away the same 1st Amendment that you claim is being taken away from you.

No, it is called equal protection under the law.

No, "equal protection under the law" means that the government must not show favoritism of one religion over another.

We don't know that the government has favored this group over any other group.

For more on this, see the Mergens and Lamb's Chapel cases.

If we are going to use separation of church and state as a reason for a town not promoting Christianity, then it cannot promote paganism, either.

The courts have consistently ruled that allowing a religious group to use public property is not promotion.

You don't know that the town has denied Christians similar access.

If you supress only one religion and not the another religion, the ones of the supressed religion are right to object that this is discriminating one religion over the other.

But no one has been supressed.

We Christians have every right to be treated by the government the same way as any other religion is.

And there is no evidence that we haven't been.

As long as the government gives us an opportunity to pursue political and legal means, we should take it.

But why should we harrass another religious group, just because we don't agree with them? If we deny someone their 1st Amendment right, then how can we claim it for ourselves?

If the government sponsors something pagan, then they should also sponsor something Christian. If the government suppresses something Christian, then they should suppress something pagan.

So far, there's no evidence that they've sponsored anything pagan.

 

[PastorJim]

Oh, I'd wager a hefty sum that this is just a bit of lazy language use. By saying the town is having it just means that it's happening in that town.

It's like saying "the town is having a new Wal-Mart built". The town isn't building the Wal-Mart... Satan is. Oh wait, I mean "Wal-Mart is". (Same thing, but I digress.)


What's most likely is that the group behind the gathering applied for permission to use a public park or something (as is everyone's right to do for a peaceful assembly under the US Constitution) and the town - not being a theocracy - approved them.


The town can no more deny a pagan group the right to assemble in a park because they're pagan than it could deny a church the right to have a church picnic in the park because they're Christian. Any reason for denial or approval must be independent of relgion.

Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.

There is no legal reason at all to deny them their permit to gather.

 

[strikerchris0411]

I just found out that the town I live in is having some kind of pagan/witch/whatever gathering in late September and I keep feeling like I should be doing something about this. They are having it in a public park, have invited the local media and are just flaunting their godlessness in everyone's faces. Of course everyone is invited. Should I just ignore it and go about my business or should I stand up and protest this "event?" A few friends and I have been talking about going to witness to these people but we have no idea how to talk about God and Jesus to them or even the best way to start. I want to do more than just hold up signs, I want to be more "hands on" with this. It just feels like God is telling me this is the path He wants me to take. Any advice? Has anyone ever seen one of these gatherings and been able to talk to the people there?

I would probably do something. but i would be very careful not to get hurt or anything. I would not be overly hands on but i would say something or at least try to stop it in some way.

 

[Godssong]

Sprinkle holy water on them. Maybe they will melt away.

Ooh...I like this idea...

Except, I know the story line of "Wicked." Fooey.