Should I become a Christian?

[vle045]

Do you believe historians? Do you believe the history books that you read in school... about george Washington and all that?

Jesus came to tell us the truth about the afterlife thousands of years ago. God trusted the people of those times to pass down those words to future generations. He does not need to prove Himself over and over. It is now through the Words that have been passed down (The Bible) that we know what happened during our ancestors times.

Can anyone prove anything about the afterlife? Of course not, because once you reach that knowledge, you are no longer in this world. It's not like you can get on the phone and call your friends and tell them about it.

The decision is yours to make, all we can do is tell you what we believe. We can't force you to believe anything.

If your question is sincere and not an attempt to just try to ruffle some feathers, your best bet would be to seek out a Pastor in your area. They are our spiritual leaders and are able to answer those kids of questions.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't see where you said if you were interested in any particular denomination. If you are, go to that Pastor. If not, try one at the Church of a relative or close friend.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[3sigma]

Do you believe historians? Do you believe the history books that you read in school... about george Washington and all that?

I accept what historians say when they can support it with sound, objective evidence. That evidence is in the form of primary sources. Let’s take your example of George Washington. The Papers of George Washington project at the University of Virginia houses a collection of 135,000 of Washington’s letters, orders, reports, proclamations, addresses and other documents. This collection comprises photocopies of the original documents, but those original documents still exist in the Library of Congress and hundreds of other US and foreign repositories as well as in the hands of private individuals. There are probably other articles describing George Washington in newspaper archives and elsewhere around the world. Anyone doubting that George Washington was real need only view these originals to dispel any doubts.

Jesus came to tell us the truth about the afterlife thousands of years ago. God trusted the people of those times to pass down those words to future generations. He does not need to prove Himself over and over. It is now through the Words that have been passed down (The Bible) that we know what happened during our ancestors times.

Ah, but here we have an entirely different story. Now you are relying on a self-serving religious text for which no originals exist and which has been transcribed and translated innumerable times. You are telling me to believe something simply because the Bible says so. This does not qualify in any way as sound, objective evidence that an afterlife exists. As I said before, I will accept that an afterlife exists if anyone can provide me with such evidence.

If your question is sincere and not an attempt to just try to ruffle some feathers, your best bet would be to seek out a Pastor in your area.If your question is sincere and not an attempt to just try to ruffle some feathers, your best bet would be to seek out a Pastor in your area.

My original question was indeed sincere. Here is my original post again.

“Is there some net benefit to be gained, either for me or for society, by my becoming a Christian that could not be gained by my remaining an atheist? Bear in mind that I am sceptical by nature, which probably explains my atheism, so please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that whatever benefit you propose is real.”

Some here have tried to answer that question, but others have just tried to convince me that God is real, that I have a void in my life and that Christians are better people than non-Christians, none of which was supported by any sound, objective evidence. You tried to convince me by saying that I will lose my soul and burn in hell for all eternity unless I become a Christian, again without providing any evidence that these things are real. Do you honestly think that making such threats is a reasonable answer?

[FONT=&quot]I must say that, after the responses I’ve received to my question, it certainly seems that I would be better off remaining an atheist than becoming a Christian. Can anyone please provide a positive benefit to my becoming a Christian that is supported by sound, objective evidence?[/FONT]

 

[apsalmistspraise]

Hey there. I have read the entire thread before answering you. I figured after reading the whole thing I would have so much to say. But I do not have much to say at all. All the evidence that I would bring to the table would be on a spiritual level at best because I utilize what I consider to be my spirit indwelled by the Holy Spirit to make all my choices. Some would call it subconsciouses. On a level of experience I have only as much as my 30 years holds. some days it was bad and some days it was good. For a year I decided to have no belief in God at all. Yet I do not feel the need to say "I was an atheist" after all, one would not believe that, as all good atheists stay atheists as much as one can tell. lol So at best my experience only benefits me. Just as your experience would only benefit you NOT others UNTIL after you so conceded to live with a new faith in a Jesus Christ you, as of now, do not believe in. So, why have I bothered to write you and even give an answer knowin this answer will not constitute as being anywhere close to enough? Because of my experiencing the Holy Spirit leading me, urging me to say, even if you do not believe, that he does love you. and whether or not you believe it, does not change it. The only way it would benefit others in your believing would be after you believed and shared with others of the power of God which would THEN be evident in your life. You would then be in the same boat as we are trying to explain by faith and experience alone that there is power in the precious blood of Jesus. So, I end my answer, knowing you are probably very disappointed in the answer that you have read, but knowing that I said all that I believe led to say... And i do think that many non-christians are LESS selfish than christians, because some christians are only in it for fire insurance and they will be sorely disappointed when they see, fire insurance was NOT what the choice of a life lived for Christ was. the point of a life lived for Christ would be for the creation to glorify the creator. and since you believe that you just became, and serve no purpose, then i can see how you would feel that changing your mind is of no consequence :O) I leave you no scripture references, because it is the Holy Spirit within me that helps me realize what a scripture means to me, and since you do not believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, there is no reason to share scripture that satisfies MY soul when I read it. I do hope an answer for you will one day satisfy you, as that is one thing all men have within them is the desire to be satisfied.

 

[vle045]

I accept what historians say when they can support it with sound, objective evidence. That evidence is in the form of primary sources. Let’s take your example of George Washington. The Papers of George Washington project at the University of Virginia houses a collection of 135,000 of Washington’s letters, orders, reports, proclamations, addresses and other documents. This collection comprises photocopies of the original documents, but those original documents still exist in the Library of Congress and hundreds of other US and foreign repositories as well as in the hands of private individuals. There are probably other articles describing George Washington in newspaper archives and elsewhere around the world. Anyone doubting that George Washington was real need only view these originals to dispel any doubts.


Ah, but here we have an entirely different story. Now you are relying on a self-serving religious text for which no originals exist and which has been transcribed and translated innumerable times. You are telling me to believe something simply because the Bible says so. This does not qualify in any way as sound, objective evidence that an afterlife exists. As I said before, I will accept that an afterlife exists if anyone can provide me with such evidence.


My original question was indeed sincere. Here is my original post again.

“Is there some net benefit to be gained, either for me or for society, by my becoming a Christian that could not be gained by my remaining an atheist? Bear in mind that I am sceptical by nature, which probably explains my atheism, so please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that whatever benefit you propose is real.”

Some here have tried to answer that question, but others have just tried to convince me that God is real, that I have a void in my life and that Christians are better people than non-Christians, none of which was supported by any sound, objective evidence. You tried to convince me by saying that I will lose my soul and burn in hell for all eternity unless I become a Christian, again without providing any evidence that these things are real. Do you honestly think that making such threats is a reasonable answer?

[FONT=&quot]I must say that, after the responses I’ve received to my question, it certainly seems that I would be better off remaining an atheist than becoming a Christian. Can anyone please provide a positive benefit to my becoming a Christian that is supported by sound, objective evidence?[/FONT]

Again, I will tell you that if you truly seek an answer, go visit a Pastor. Unless I somehow missed it, you seem to be ignoring THAT advice. I believe I suggested it more than once. Pastors are there to help answer those types of questions.

 

[apsalmistspraise]

Again, I will tell you that if you truly seek an answer, go visit a Pastor. Unless I somehow missed it, you seem to be ignoring THAT advice. I believe I suggested it more than once. Pastors are there to help answer those types of questions.

ok here is what i think. i do not think he wishes to go to someone in pastorship. he wants to see what the everyday believers that sit in the pews have to say...how well do they KNOW what they believe. am i right?

 

[Fin1234]

Well, here's the thing...

If you are atheist and there is a God, you will lose your soul.

If you believe in God, but He is not real, no harm done as then you will simply turn to dust after you are buried.

So what have you got to lose by believing, right?

You just used pascals wager.


I hope you realise the sheer Irony of being a theist and using pascals wager.

 

[apsalmistspraise]

You just used pascals wager.


I hope you realise the sheer Irony of being a theist and using pascals wager.

not to mention the fact that to use the wager does not really use faith, it tries to assume logical resposibility for existence and God. If one were to believe this way then would they truly be saved? because it says in scripture that with the heart man believeth and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. i cannot believe based on chosing the 'lesser of two evils' as one would say. then it is only a head choice and not heart knowledge.

 

[Fin1234]

Also the fact that pascals wager relies on two options. I mean whats to stop pascals wager being used in; anubis versus thor; or christian god vs allah.

Thats the irony I was referring to, but what you said is true pascals wager doesn't take into fact that true belief is a sincere thing.

 

[3sigma]

Again, I will tell you that if you truly seek an answer, go visit a Pastor.

Well, vle045, the problem is that I’ve already spoken to Pastors about this and all they offered me was mindless platitudes. They tried to convince me that God is real, that it created the universe, the Earth and life, that Noah’s flood actually occurred and that the theory of evolution is wrong. None could support his claims with sound, objective evidence, some of their claims are flatly contradicted by such evidence and none of them really answered my question, which is why I ignored your advice. Having failed to receive an answer from the clergy, I decided to appeal to a wider audience by asking the question here and, as Fin1234 pointed out, all you offered me was Pascal’s wager.

I’ve heard the Pascal’s wager ploy many times before and I was disappointed that the first response I received to my question was the standard boilerplate. I pointed out some of the problems I have with Pascal’s wager and you switched to threats of burning in hell for eternity and trying to convince me to simply have faith, but without providing any evidence. Your responses have made me think that the net benefit of my becoming a Christian would be negative.

ok here is what i think. i do not think he wishes to go to someone in pastorship. he wants to see what the everyday believers that sit in the pews have to say...how well do they KNOW what they believe. am i right?

Yes, APP, you are correct. Of all the respondents so far, you seem to have understood my question most clearly and given the most considered response. I appreciate that you took the time to read the thread before responding and, even though you didn’t provide an answer to my question, I was less disappointed by your response than I was by the first response I received.

 

[apsalmistspraise]

Well, vle045, the problem is that I’ve already spoken to Pastors about this and all they offered me was mindless platitudes. They tried to convince me that God is real, that it created the universe, the Earth and life, that Noah’s flood actually occurred and that the theory of evolution is wrong. None could support his claims with sound, objective evidence, some of their claims are flatly contradicted by such evidence and none of them really answered my question, which is why I ignored your advice. Having failed to receive an answer from the clergy, I decided to appeal to a wider audience by asking the question here and, as Fin1234 pointed out, all you offered me was Pascal’s wager.

I’ve heard the Pascal’s wager ploy many times before and I was disappointed that the first response I received to my question was the standard boilerplate. I pointed out some of the problems I have with Pascal’s wager and you switched to threats of burning in hell for eternity and trying to convince me to simply have faith, but without providing any evidence. Your responses have made me think that the net benefit of my becoming a Christian would be negative.


Yes, APP, you are correct. Of all the respondents so far, you seem to have understood my question most clearly and given the most considered response. I appreciate that you took the time to read the thread before responding and, even though you didn’t provide an answer to my question, I was less disappointed by your response than I was by the first response I received.

thank you for the compliment lol as i will take it as...lol like i said, there is no benifit to others, you becoming a believer, until after that committment, there really is no benefit to anyone until that moment... sorry if that also disappoints you.

 

[indagroove]

[FONT=&quot]Is there some net benefit to be gained, either for me or for society, by my becoming a Christian that could not be gained by my remaining an atheist? Bear in mind that I am sceptical by nature, which probably explains my atheism, so please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that whatever benefit you propose is real.[/FONT]

In short, you are the only one that can answer this.

You are not able to just proclaim yourself a Christian, so that questions is out. Christianity is a belief, not a proclaimation. It comes from the revelation of truth. We want to believe that we have a handle on all things, especialy the world around us in science. We naturaly want to refuse the supernatural, and only believe in the tangible.

In my younger years, I was well educated, and way to smart to believe in a super being without evidence. No way I was going to be made a fool of. And certainly, there was no human that was going to talk me into it.

As I got older, I started to have many things revealed to me. I also realized it took a whole lot more faith to believe that our world and creation is a result of random events. A random universe that randomly created this wonderous planet we live on, with all the majestic animals, and the human race. Just believing the human body and soul alone is a mass of random chemistry takes way more faith then me now believing in a creator.

I also used to believe in Santa Claus. But that is a bad example because there is no proof and truth to sustain that belief beyond age 7, out side of the spirit of ole' St. Nick . On the other hand, there is a lot of evidence in Christ if you are truely interested, but it requires work on your part. I could sit here and type everything I have learned in my life, but 1). you wouldn't believe me 2). I have 5 kids, so no time for that 3). Takes all the fun out of it.

Read Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ" Use it to gain the foot notes and interviews he performed. Then research the people he Interviewed.

That's if you are genuinely interested.

Wish you the best in your journey.

 

[apsalmistspraise]

In short, you are the only one that can answer this.

You are not able to just proclaim yourself a Christian, so that questions is out. Christianity is a belief, not a proclaimation. It comes from the revelation of truth. We want to believe that we have a handle on all things, especialy the world around us in science. We naturaly want to refuse the supernatural, and only believe in the tangible.

In my younger years, I was well educated, and way to smart to believe in a super being without evidence. No way I was going to be made a fool of. And certainly, there was no human that was going to talk me into it.

As I got older, I started to have many things revealed to me. I also realized it took a whole lot more faith to believe that our world and creation is a result of random events. A random universe that randomly created this wonderous planet we live on, with all the majestic animals, and the human race. Just believing the human body and soul alone is a mass of random chemistry takes way more faith then me now believing in a creator.

I also used to believe in Santa Claus. But that is a bad example because there is no proof and truth to sustain that belief beyond age 7, out side of the spirit of ole' St. Nick . On the other hand, there is a lot of evidence in Christ if you are truely interested, but it requires work on your part. I could sit here and type everything I have learned in my life, but 1). you wouldn't believe me 2). I have 5 kids, so no time for that 3). Takes all the fun out of it.

Read Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ" Use it to gain the foot notes and interviews he performed. Then research the people he Interviewed.

That's if you are genuinely interested.

Wish you the best in your journey.

sadly, after reading what I have read from an atheistic view point: he is not going to be 'moved' by Lee Strobel's Case For Christ.... *lol* It is very moving for the Christian...not so much the atheists. *lol*

 

[3sigma]

indagroove,

Most of your post seems to be more apologetics trying to convince me to believe things without evidence rather than answering my question.

On the other hand, there is a lot of evidence in Christ if you are truely interested, but it requires work on your part.

I have read enough reviews of The Case for Christ to know that it is a Christian apologetics piece trying to convince people that Jesus was real. From what I’ve read, it does a poor job of that, but that isn’t the point. The point is that it doesn’t answer my original question: am I better off being a Christian or an atheist? This was the closest I thing I could find to an answer in your response.

As I got older, I started to have many things revealed to me. I also realized it took a whole lot more faith to believe that our world and creation is a result of random events. A random universe that randomly created this wonderous planet we live on, with all the majestic animals, and the human race. Just believing the human body and soul alone is a mass of random chemistry takes way more faith then me now believing in a creator.

I would have expressed this somewhat differently. I would have said that it takes a lot more thought and effort, not faith, to discover and understand the true explanation for the origin of the universe and life rather than simply believing that God did it—so much effort, in fact, that we still don’t have an answer to these questions despite working on it for quite some time now. So it seems that the benefit of becoming a Christian that you are espousing is that we no longer need to think. Again, I don’t see this as a positive benefit.

 

[vle045]

indagroove,

Most of your post seems to be more apologetics trying to convince me to believe things without evidence rather than answering my question.


I have read enough reviews of The Case for Christ to know that it is a Christian apologetics piece trying to convince people that Jesus was real. From what I’ve read, it does a poor job of that, but that isn’t the point. The point is that it doesn’t answer my original question: am I better off being a Christian or an atheist? This was the closest I thing I could find to an answer in your response.


I would have expressed this somewhat differently. I would have said that it takes a lot more thought and effort, not faith, to discover and understand the true explanation for the origin of the universe and life rather than simply believing that God did it—so much effort, in fact, that we still don’t have an answer to these questions despite working on it for quite some time now. So it seems that the benefit of becoming a Christian that you are espousing is that we no longer need to think. Again, I don’t see this as a positive benefit.

I think what we are seeing here is that "evidence" is very different for every person. I don't know what specifically you are looking for.

Are you looking for someone to say, yes, it's real. I met him in the flesh. We had coffee. He took me up to heaven and I saw it with my own eyes... here are some pictures. Maybe we can go there next Tuesday so you can see it too.

I don't mean that to be snarky. But you really can't just dismiss everything you are told and giving back remarks that come off as though you are somehow better than those who do believe. Because that is the impression I am getting.

How do you know you fall in love? How do you know your parents love you? How do you know you love your kids? You can't prove it with statistics or deeds or what you see, touch, hear and smell. Because with love all those things can be misleading. People may love you, but can't show it. People might act like they love you but they don't.

I could tell you my personal story where it was revealed to me. But that might not be something that has meaning to you.

For me, it was an act of healing. When I was 14, I stepped on a rusty nail. My foot became badly infected. I had to go to the ER and have a quarter inch hole cut in my foot to literally dig out the infection. I was on crutches and had a yucky hole in my foot. Several days later, I was in Church to see a speaker. His words were "Someone will walk out of here better than they came in." At that moment, I stood right up out of my chair.

Mind you, he was speaking spiritually, but for me it was literally.

I don't know what made me decide to stand up at that moment, but we went out in to the hall because my foot didn't hurt. We unwrapped the bandage on my foot and there was not a mark on me. The size of that hole should have left a scar. A big ugly indented scar.

The doctor was amazed. There was no explanation.

Divine healing? Maybe. Why? Who knows. Maybe it was just so that it would be known to me.... or maybe it was a message to everyone around me... or maybe it was so that I can share the story years later.

Or maybe I am some freak who has healing powers like Claire on Heroes. I doubt that.

But if you don't want to believe, that's your choice. I'm not going to try to make you. I have plenty of friends who have other faiths... Jewish, Wiccan, Muslim, Atheist... whatever works for them is fine with me. All I can do is speak of my own experiences. That's all I have.

 

[seekHisMercy]

Should I become a Christian?

[FONT=&quot]Is there some net benefit to be gained, either for me or for society, by my becoming a Christian that could not be gained by my remaining an atheist? Bear in mind that I am sceptical by nature, which probably explains my atheism, so please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that whatever benefit you propose is real.[/FONT]

Lets look at it like this. If you don't believe in God, you'd better be right.

Many people have died and come back to fully explain their experiences with going to heaven or hell, instantly. Some have come back with stern messages about your fate if you don't turn to God. Some of these people knew nothing of God or the Bible, heaven or hell.

As for net gains I wouldn't expect a thing. God has been patient with us all. When I returned to the Lord it was no walk through the park. but I see things only I can explain now as the work of God in my life. If eternal life isn't a "net benefit" then what is? What do you really have to lose by it?

My warning would be don't ever walk into church expecting anything. I was given sound advice about improving my personal relationship with Jesus, and letting the Lord fix me first.

However if your looking to improve your social life you'll find yourself liking Christians a whole lot better. My parting shot would be- Crack open the NASB translation of the KJV Bible and read the Gospel starting with Matthew.

 

[3sigma]

Are you looking for someone to say, yes, it's real.

Yes, that would help. It would help more if the person could provide some sound, objective evidence to support that statement, but again that isn’t answering my question. Most people seem to be trying to convince me that God is real rather than showing me what positive benefit there is to my becoming a Christian.

You appear to be doing it again in this last response. You seem to be trying to convince me that God is real by using some analogy with ‘love’, but what does that mean? Are you saying that God is just an emotion, a feeling you have, that it’s all in your mind? What is it you are trying to say?

You also give me a personal anecdote, but personal anecdotes are subjective experiences that can be coloured by a person’s beliefs, biases and memory. They don’t constitute sound, objective evidence.

Again, though, you seem to be concentrating on trying to convince me that God is real rather than telling me what positive benefit there is to my becoming a Christian. Unless you are saying that I will gain amazing healing powers if I become a Christian? If so, you would need to support that with sound, objective evidence before a reasonable person would believe you.

[FONT=&quot]Can someone please provide a positive benefit to my becoming a Christian and support it with sound, objective evidence.[/FONT]

 

[3sigma]

Many people have died and come back to fully explain their experiences with going to heaven or hell, instantly. Some have come back with stern messages about your fate if you don't turn to God. Some of these people knew nothing of God or the Bible, heaven or hell.

Now we are getting somewhere. If this were true then an afterlife and avoiding hell would be positive benefits to my becoming a Christian. However, is any of this true? Are God, heaven and hell real? Please provide me with some sound, objective evidence to support those assertions. Could you also please provide some sound, objective evidence that many people have died and come back to life after having been to heaven or hell? I would be most interested to see this evidence.

If eternal life isn't a "net benefit" then what is? What do you really have to lose by it?

Again, this appears to be a resort to Pascal’s wager. And, again, I would like you to support your contention that there is such a thing as eternal life with some sound, objective evidence.

My parting shot would be- Crack open the NASB translation of the KJV Bible and read the Gospel starting with Matthew.

A translation of a translation who knows how many times removed of a book of myths and legends is not in any sense sound, objective evidence for anything other than the fact that some people have vivid imaginations.

[FONT=&quot]Can no one provide any sound, objective evidence to support his or her claims? I’m beginning to think that God, heaven and hell are not real at all, but purely imaginary.[/FONT]

 

[vle045]

Honey, death from this world is final. You will not get the answer that you are looking for until it is too late.

Do whatever you feel is right for you. If you do not mind gambling with your soul, that's your choice.

I've never heard of Pascal's Wager.. or whatever you call it. I am not a theologian. I am not a Sunday School teacher, I am not an historian. I am a wife, a mother and a daughter.

You want to refute everything that everyone tells you. That makes me think that you are not sincere. You just want to try to shake the faith of others by suggesting that what they have to say is worthless and meaningless.

I believe that you are being led by Satan. He wants to weaken the foundation of Christ. He wants to trick us into doubting God.

You also missed my point. My point in my story was that it is different for everyone. Not trying to suggest that you would gain healing powers.

And if you seek Christ because of what YOU will get out of it, then your reasons are selfish and will not lead you to Christ anyways.

Good luck to you.

 

[Dime]

think of it like this, it's like a multiple choice question on a test, if you have no Idea of the answer, just guess randomly, because you can't get it right if you don't answer.

 

[EgbertTheFourth]

If you are atheist and there is a God, you will lose your soul.

If you believe in God, but He is not real, no harm done as then you will simply turn to dust after you are buried.

So what have you got to lose by believing, right?

Well, that's true if there are only two possibilities. Let's say the Bible is partly true and Jesus is in fact evil, but hiding it in a very good manner. Perhaps Jesus wants to steal our souls, so that all Christians will go to hell, while non-Christians would go to heaven.

I'm not saying that this is plausible or likely, but it's a possibility. So when you take that in consideration, yes, you've got something to lose. Although, not likely.

- EgbertTheFourth