Should I become a Christian?

[Sunshine11]

I don’t think that the respondents are proving there is no God. I don’t even think it is possible to prove there is no God. I’m just saying that they’ve convinced me that becoming a Christian is not something that would be good for me.

Your choice Sigma.

But when you see God and are about to face judgement....then I hope you remember that you were warned.

You will search out what your heart desires apart from what anyone on here says to you. And I doubt that anyone can say anything to you that would change your mind.

But just like someone said earlier.....if you want to know the benefits...then just read the Bible.

You will also get to understand what some of the dangers are too.

Sunshine

 

[flameingcrouton]

Ok, well without getting to much into the creation evolution debate, Since it's a very long, arduous, and ultimately unresolvable topic, I can tell you my personal reason for choosing Christianity, witch I consider objective and logical.

1. The Universe is here. It exists. If you don't assume that then you can't have a discussion about anything.

2. Universes Don't create them selfs, despite what modern day science will tell you. I don't think I can help anyone who really believes the whole of existence just magically poofed it's self into being. It's not logical and it sure as heck isn't science.

3. Given that, Someone had to create it (I promise I have a point to all this).

4. If someone created it, that means that it belongs to them. And if it belongs to them then they get to make the rules. And since you're part of their creation, that means the rules apply to you.

Now here's the problem. Every religion claims that they serve the real God, the real maker of the universe, and that everyone else has it wrong and is worshiping a false god. This is where I would encourage you to objectively look at all the religions (sounds like a lot I know, but there are only so many) and figure out witch one seems the most logical. Thats what I did and Christianity won out with me. Any way

5. Now if the Christians are right, witch I believe we are, That means that you get a handy dandy little text book that tells you the rules. There are 10 main ones to be aware of, and about a million other ones that mostly branch off from the big 10.

6. Now here's the important part, If we're right, that means that God gave you (and everyone else in existence) an ultimatum. Choose him (follow his rules) and get eternal paradise, or don't choose him and get eternal suffering.

7. So after all that, your big gain is eternal bliss, happiness, hungerlessness, thirstlessness, and if you like singing you get to do that for the rest of eternity. Of course you don't get all this till you die. Until then your stuck in the same suck as everyone else.

Hope that was helpful. And I hope you're still reading this thread, I'm gunna be mad if i wrote all this and no one ever reads it.

 

[3sigma]

I am still reading this thread so your post wasn’t in vain (well… sort of).

3. Given that, Someone had to create it

[FONT=&quot]Can you please provide some sound, objective evidence to support this statement? All your following statements rely on this being true, but it appears to me that this is just an assumption on your part without any sound, objective evidence to support it. Unless you can show that this is true, your following statements are all just baseless assumptions.[/FONT]

 

[apsalmistspraise]

And back to square one. :O) Does anyone wish to sing"ring around the rosy" with me now? lol

 

[flameingcrouton]

I am still reading this thread so your post wasn’t in vain (well… sort of).


[FONT=&quot]Can you please provide some sound, objective evidence to support this statement? All your following statements rely on this being true, but it appears to me that this is just an assumption on your part without any sound, objective evidence to support it. Unless you can show that this is true, your following statements are all just baseless assumptions.[/FONT]

My objective reason is that there is nothing to my knowledge in this universe that created it's self. If you see a chair, you don't just assume that it built it's self just because you didn't actually witness the carpenter building it. And if something as simple as a chair can't create it's self, how on earth could something as unimaginably complex as the universe construct it's self. Where did the laws of physics come from anyway? Theres no good reason why the laws of physics act the way they do. And what a coincidence that they work flawlessly (some would say it almost looks "designed") to support life. How fortunate for us living beings.

It's just common since. Any logically thinking person, Christian or non-Christian (even an atheist) could come to this conclusion. Theres not one ounce of religion in that theory.

 

[3sigma]

My objective reason is that there is nothing to my knowledge in this universe that created it's self.

How about snowflakes? Snowflakes are complex and look designed. Did someone create every single snowflake or did they grow from water molecules and ice crystals?

How about you? Your body is amazingly complex, but did anyone create you fully formed? Didn’t your body grow from a single diploid cell just like every other sexually reproducing organism on this planet? That single cell grew and divided to form other cells that differentiated into the various organs such as the heart, liver, lungs and brain. You had no heart, liver, lung and brain cells at all when you were conceived; they were created by your body as it grew. Your brain is probably one of the most complex lumps of matter in the universe consisting of up to 100 billion neurons, each with up to 10,000 connections to other neurons, yet it grew from virtually nothing.

…how on earth could something as unimaginably complex as the universe construct it's self.

The universe grew from simple beginnings into the complex structure it is today over a period of approximately 13.7 billion years. We can observe the universe and discover how the planets, stars and galaxies formed from virtually nothing. We can reason ourselves all the way back to Planck time, but there is absolutely no information available about what ‘existed before’ that point so there is no way of knowing how the universe came into existence. There is zero evidence to suggest that someone or something created it. Reaching a conclusion on how the universe came into being is nothing more than an assumption based on wishful thinking.

[FONT=&quot]Do you know how the universe came into being? Do you have any sound, objective evidence to support your conclusion or is your reasoning just an assumption based on your religious beliefs? What does any of this have to do with whether I should become a Christian or not?[/FONT]

 

[Digit]

Hi 3sigma,

How about snowflakes? Snowflakes are complex and look designed. Did someone create every single snowflake or did they grow from water molecules and ice crystals?

That wasn't the argument, the argument was that nothing created itself. I hope you don't believe snowflakes created themselves...

How about you? Your body is amazingly complex, but did anyone create you fully formed? Didn’t your body grow from a single diploid cell just like every other sexually reproducing organism on this planet? That single cell grew and divided to form other cells that differentiated into the various organs such as the heart, liver, lungs and brain. You had no heart, liver, lung and brain cells at all when you were conceived; they were created by your body as it grew. Your brain is probably one of the most complex lumps of matter in the universe consisting of up to 100 billion neurons, each with up to 10,000 connections to other neurons, yet it grew from virtually nothing.

Either you love misunderstanding things on purpose, or everyone here is on the same page, and only you are at crossed wires with us. Eitehr way, that was not the argument, I didn't create myself. My parents created me and I can trace this line back many generations through my family tree to all my ancestors - none of whome, created themselves.

The universe grew from simple beginnings into the complex structure it is today over a period of approximately 13.7 billion years.

Just as I grew from simple beginings in my mothers womb, to the complex organism I am today... I was still created by SOMEONE or SOMETHING though. I didn't make myself.

Digit

 

[3sigma]

Digit,

I was pointing out to flamingcrouton that many things are not created in their current form; that they grow or evolve over time from very simple beginnings into extremely complex forms. Take your brain for instance. It is a long bow to draw to say that your parents created it when no brain cells even existed in your zygote and, even now, your brain is changing every second.

[FONT=&quot]Be that as it may, I notice that you didn’t attempt to answer my questions; in particular, what does this have to do with whether or not I should become a Christian?[/FONT]

 

[Digit]

Digit,

I was pointing out to flamingcrouton that many things are not created in their current form; that they grow or evolve over time from very simple beginnings into extremely complex forms. Take your brain for instance. It is a long bow to draw to say that your parents created it when no brain cells even existed in your zygote and, even now, your brain is changing every second.

[FONT=&quot]Be that as it may, I notice that you didn’t attempt to answer my questions; in particular, what does this have to do with whether or not I should become a Christian?[/FONT]

I'm not sure what it has to do with whether you should be a Christian or not, I was merely pointing out the error.

The cells themselves did not exist, as that would mean we appear fully formed, which we do not. Yet the code for them does exist. And just as we are created via our parents, so was that code created via God.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[3sigma]

And just as we are created via our parents, so was that code created via God.

[FONT=&quot]I’m guessing that I’ll be reported again for debating if I have the temerity to ask you to provide some sound, objective evidence that God created your genetic code?[/FONT]

 

[Digit]

[FONT=&quot]I’m guessing that I’ll be reported again for debating if I have the temerity to ask you to provide some sound, objective evidence that God created your genetic code?[/FONT]

Then if you are sincere, PM me. Why is it, that as soon as a non-Christian looses the spotlight of Questions for Non-Christians, they go all quiet. Is it about arguing publicly, or finding truth?

The sincere always PM, the others just fade away.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[Chaplain David]

[FONT=&quot]I’m guessing that I’ll be reported again for debating if I have the temerity to ask you to provide some sound, objective evidence that God created your genetic code?[/FONT]

Good work Christians and to everyone who's tried to help this fellow. God bless everyone.

 

[3sigma]

Then if you are sincere, PM me. Why is it, that as soon as a non-Christian looses the spotlight of Questions for Non-Christians, they go all quiet. Is it about arguing publicly, or finding truth?

It’s about both. It’s about finding the truth and doing so in a public forum where those who are seeking the truth can see the evidence (or lack thereof) and decide for themselves what is true and what is make believe. For every person who posts in this forum, there are many more who read it without ever posting. I’m not just asking questions and seeking clarification of answers for my own benefit; I’m doing it for the other readers here as well. Sending you a private message doesn’t help those people discover the truth. Unfortunately, it appears that I am prevented from finding the truth because when I challenge or seek clarification of the vague, ambiguous and unsupported assertions I receive as answers, I’m reported for debating. It’s almost as though many Christians aren’t sincere about finding the truth at all.

The sincere always PM, the others just fade away.

[FONT=&quot]People who are sincere about finding the truth will question their beliefs and seek sound, objective evidence to support them. You seem incapable of doing either so sending you a private message would probably be a pointless waste of my time and doesn’t help the other readers here who are sincere about finding the truth.[/FONT]

 

[Digit]

You see no matter what excuses people offer up, it comes down to one thing and one thing only, do you want answers, or do you want to argue about things that you don't really care about either way.

A reported post doesn't mean you can't post here, it just means there are rules to follow. I'm not a great fan of those roles myself, as I find debate one on one rewarding and I've had several people thank me for it here, what I dislike is posting in General Apologetics much, since there you have dozens from all sides and it gets totally sidetracked and confused.

If you read the forum rules, debating is not allowed here. I was reported too, but I'm not about to have an aneurysm about it.

Long and short of this is that you aren't sincere and I guess 10 pages was good enough to get to that conclusion. Have a good day.

All the best,
Digit

 

[3sigma]

I'm not a great fan of those rules myself, as I find debate one on one rewarding and I've had several people thank me for it here, what I dislike is posting in General Apologetics much, since there you have dozens from all sides and it gets totally sidetracked and confused.

I agree with you about General Apologetics and I noted this earlier, but now on top of having my threads closed, one of my posts in a closed thread has been selectively deleted. How do you feel about that?

Long and short of this is that you aren't sincere and I guess 10 pages was good enough to get to that conclusion.

[FONT=&quot]I am completely sincere about finding the truth, which is why I ask questions and seek sound, objective evidence. What makes you think I am not sincere? About what do you think I am not sincere?[/FONT]

 

[Digit]

Hi 3sigma,

I agree with you about General Apologetics and I noted this earlier, but now on top of having my threads closed, one of my posts in a closed thread has been selectively deleted. How do you feel about that?

I understand it may be difficult to come here as an outsider in many respects and experience moderation when asking questions as it can seem related, "Hmm, I asked about this, no answer was forthcoming and my post was deleted... what are they hiding/scared of?". That's pretty understandable, but I don't know if I can say enough how this is not the case here. There are rules for this forum, some I don't agree with, but ultimately I have no mod powers here (I'm only a trainee) and for the record I didn't report/delete any of your posts/threads.

[FONT=&quot]I am completely sincere about finding the truth, which is why I ask questions and seek sound, objective evidence. What makes you think I am not sincere? About what do you think I am not sincere?[/FONT]

Well it's not up to me to dictate what you feel, but from experience here and in other debates and conversations with people, I think I (and quite likely other posters here) recognise sincerity in a snap. From what you have posted it, it is apparent you have a very strong emotional attachment to your worldview, which is not uncommon, every one of us has an emotional attachment of some degree to our worldview, it's impossibe not to - but you certainly hold on to some arguments ferociously, and have a great reluctance to accept anything that would alleviate any perceived issues you have. Lets look at the God and omniscience question you posted. There were several replies in there the two main being that God knows everything, fine details included and that doesn't interfere with our free-will because it doesn't constrain our decisions or force us to choose in any way, the other is that God has limited omniscience, this would explain prophecy but also accomodate free-will even if you (that's you) believe that by God knowing all God would restrict our choices.

You didn't like either of these views. Also, soemone earlier demonstrated that sound, objective evidence is a red-herring, yet you are still clinging to that, as per your emotional attachment to your worldview.

So, my conclusion, and I don't think I am alone, is that you certainly have an interest in this, but you are by no means ready or willing to change anything you currently, believe, unless by only a tiny margin.

I don't think that's an unfair assessment, do you? Also as I mentioned earlier, one way to find someone who is genuinely interested, is to ask for them to PM you to continue a discussion where the forum rules do not permit, and out of all the people I've offered that too, I've had maybe 5 total take me up on that offer, in about a years worth of posts here.

Also, and this is the kicker, the type of questions people post, reveal volumes about their intent. Most, come here with a supposed magic-bullet question, one that they believe is the end-all to Christianity. I don't think I've met anyone who has had issues with whether God knew everything or not, whether we had free-will or not, whether we believed in evolution or not and having those questions/answers be the foundational issue with their disbelief in God. Which is why I said to you earlier, that regardless of what we (Christians) believe about the details, we all proclaim the same thing, and thus, the details are not important - that's not saying we can believe untrue things, we all believe we hold the right view about things such as evolution or omniscience, but IF that view changes, our belief in God does not, which is dearest to us.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[3sigma]

I understand it may be difficult to come here as an outsider in many respects and experience moderation when asking questions as it can seem related, "Hmm, I asked about this, no answer was forthcoming and my post was deleted... what are they hiding/scared of?".

You’re right again, Digit; it is difficult for me to accept that a person would delete a post apparently arbitrarily. I’ve been posting on many forums for years now and this is the first time I have ever had a post deleted. I admit that this is the first time I’ve posted on a forum run by Christians so maybe that has something to do with it. The post that was deleted had been answered, by you as it happens. It was between your posts 103 and 104. I am puzzled because the reason given for the deletion was “debate is not allowed in Questions by Non-Christians”, yet debate had already ceased because the thread was closed hours before the post was deleted and there were plenty of similar posts from all parties in that thread that weren’t deleted. It seems odd to me that well after the debate had ceased, one particular post six posts from the end was deleted. Perhaps this is just one more example of Christian behaviour that I’m going to have to endure if I continue to post on this site.

…God knows everything, fine details included and that doesn't interfere with our free-will because it doesn't constrain our decisions or force us to choose in any way…

Actually, that’s what was in dispute, but of course we cannot debate that here.

Also, soemone earlier demonstrated that sound, objective evidence is a red-herring, yet you are still clinging to that, as per your emotional attachment to your worldview.

Oh, please. So this is why debate is not allowed in this forum, is it? It allows Christians to make blatantly false statements without fear of redress? It is pointless trying to have a discussion with this ‘no debate’ rule in force. I’m not going to bother with this forum any longer. I’ll see you in General Apologetics.

…we all believe we hold the right view about things such as evolution or omniscience, but IF that view changes, our belief in God does not, which is dearest to us.

[FONT=&quot]Therein lies the problem. You are admitting that no matter what evidence is presented that shows that what you believe is make believe, you will go right on believing it.[/FONT]

 

[Kelly]

[FONT=&quot]Therein lies the problem. You are admitting that no matter what evidence is presented that shows that what you believe is make believe, you will go right on believing it.[/FONT]

Amen.

1 Peter 1:6-8

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

 

[Digit]

You’re right again, Digit; it is difficult for me to accept that a person would delete a post apparently arbitrarily. I’ve been posting on many forums for years now and this is the first time I have ever had a post deleted. I admit that this is the first time I’ve posted on a forum run by Christians so maybe that has something to do with it. The post that was deleted had been answered, by you as it happens. It was between your posts 103 and 104. I am puzzled because the reason given for the deletion was “debate is not allowed in Questions by Non-Christians”, yet debate had already ceased because the thread was closed hours before the post was deleted and there were plenty of similar posts from all parties in that thread that weren’t deleted. It seems odd to me that well after the debate had ceased, one particular post six posts from the end was deleted. Perhaps this is just one more example of Christian behaviour that I’m going to have to endure if I continue to post on this site.


Actually, that’s what was in dispute, but of course we cannot debate that here.


Oh, please. So this is why debate is not allowed in this forum, is it? It allows Christians to make blatantly false statements without fear of redress? It is pointless trying to have a discussion with this ‘no debate’ rule in force. I’m not going to bother with this forum any longer. I’ll see you in General Apologetics.


[FONT=&quot]Therein lies the problem. You are admitting that no matter what evidence is presented that shows that what you believe is make believe, you will go right on believing it.[/FONT]

Hi 3sigma,

All I see here is complaints, you didn't address anything I raised in my other post. *sigh*

Digit