Should I become a Christian?

Well, here's the thing...

If you are atheist and there is a God, you will lose your soul.

If you believe in God, but He is not real, no harm done as then you will simply turn to dust after you are buried.

So what have you got to lose by believing, right?

I really do have to log off, so i will have to be brief for now. I will try to return later...

But for now, I'll say that I would rather lose my self-respect in this brief life for believing in God than to lose my salvation and burn for eternity.

Faith is not something that can be tangibly proven... no more so than our love for our children can be proven in textbooks. It just happens. I know that even when I was 6 months pregnant with my son, I couldn't even IMAGINE the love I would feel for him once he was born.

Our love of God is like that in a way. When we do not KNOW Him, we can not begin to imagine what a relationship will be like with Him. It is something that grows with time.

If you are sincere in learning, start with your local Church. Is there a denomination that appeals to you? If so, talk to the Pastor there. Find out if they have a class for new believers.

It's all really scary, believe me, I know. You may fear making the wrong choice. I know I currently wonder about that myself. Like.. if I remain Catholic and they are actually corrupted, will I have made the wrong choice? Or if I leave the Catholic Church to be Methodist, will that be the wrong choice because they do not have Apostolic Succession?

It is definitely very confusing and scary, but it's at least worth learning about.

3sigma said:

[FONT=&quot]Is there some net benefit to be gained, either for me or for society, by my becoming a Christian that could not be gained by my remaining an atheist? Bear in mind that I am sceptical by nature, which probably explains my atheism, so please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that whatever benefit you propose is real.[/FONT]

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Hope.

Instead of believing in the hopeless nothingness of an a-theistic universe. You could put your faith in God. Now, I say faith because atheism is an equal metaphysic to any other religion. It takes just as much faith to believe that God does not as exist as it take to believe that God exists. Both are unprovable claims.

It you were a true skeptic you would be agnostic and skeptical of both faith claims that God exists or does not exist.

But like I said, to begin with, if you were to believe in God you would gain an existential hope that proclaims there is a reason for our existence.

I hope that answers your question.

RevCowboy

I believe that the Earth and all creation gives evidence to God's existance. I believe that looking at the face of a newborn child gives evidence of a divine creator. Scriptures talk about these very things. Psalm 139 says that we are knit together in our mother's womb.

I cannot argue logic, but can tell you that I believe that the God of the Universe loves you so much He sent His Son to die so that you could have a relationship with Him. He does not want you to spend your life apart from Him. By believing on Christ, you have the opportunity to develop an intimate relationship with God.

We have a void in our lives that only He can fill. Logic and intellectual reason will not provide this, only a right relationship with God can do that.

My reasons for believing are based on scriptures and personal experience. I have been through my own personal wringer as life has given me several trials which God has allowed me to get through with His help and strength. He has also given me a purpose for living.

Reading the Bible has taught me the nature of God's love and is the source of my strength. If you want to know where I get my information, read it. Start with the gospel of John. It is a good place to start.

3sigma said:

[FONT=&quot]RevCowboy,

I already have hope. I hope that one day we will see an end to sectarian violence and that people will relinquish their superstitions (probably a forlorn hope, I know, but a hope nonetheless). I hope that I will live a full life without too much hardship and pain and without causing harm to others. I hope that mankind continues to learn more about the natural world and that this knowledge will benefit mankind by allowing us to reduce suffering. I don’t believe in hopeless nothingness (whatever that means). I already have hope in many things so it doesn’t appear to be a benefit of becoming Christian that I would otherwise not have by remaining atheist.

I also don’t believe that God doesn’t exist. As you say, that conclusion would require faith without any evidence to support it. I simply don’t believe that God exists. That’s what atheism means, no God belief. I try not to accept things as true if there is no sound, objective evidence to show that they are real so I don’t believe in any gods, fairies, vampires, leprechauns or Santa Claus. My lack of belief in God is probably similar to your lack of belief in Santa Claus. Even though many people are taught to believe in Santa Claus as a child, eventually they grow up and see that there is no sound, objective evidence to support the belief so they let it go.


Not really. As I said, I already have hope so it doesn’t appear to be a benefit of becoming a Christian that I would otherwise not have. Could you please explain how a hope that there is a reason for our existence would be a benefit to me? I can’t see how such a hope would be of any use to me.[/FONT]

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I guess I should have more clear, my apologies.

Existential Hope is what I am pointing to. Hope that there is meaning and purpose to our existence. This is a big part of all religion, it helps us to explain the "why" of it all. You are most certainly correct in saying that you can Hope for all sorts of things as an Atheist.

If, as atheists assume, that God does not exist, than our existence was the product of random chance, or in effect, random chance is the pre-existing source of existence. Random chance holds no directive meaning and thus, there can be no meaning or purpose to our existence. Thus there can be no hope that existence has purpose or that there is anything beyond this existence.

Now as far as atheism goes, it indeed does have what we theologians call a metaphysical blind spot. When it comes to God there are three option. God exists, God does not exist, or we don't know. If you don't believe that God exists, than you are making the metaphysical leap that God does not exist. The only way to not make the metaphysical leap is to say that you don't know and choose not to believe either way, Agnosticism.

God, by definition, is beyond measurable and empirical reality. You can neither disprove through physical, or scientific means, that God exists or not. Thus believing God exists or does not is a metaphysical assumption, whether you are conscious of it or not.

Now, just to be clear, I am not in anyway saying that Atheism is not a valid belief or that you shouldn't be one. If you choose to hold that belief, hold it proudly!

Well I liked RevCB's first answer at least (didn't read any further, so...)

Strange that you should frame the question in such terms.
That being said, however, you could avoid an eternity of torment. It's still a very odd way to frame the question, however.
I won't be around to read your comments, most likely....
But either believe or don't believe. Is there any benefit in a (theoretical) world without God in believing in God? It's an impossible question. Without God there wouldn't be a world. Therefore any premise built upon a theory of anti-theism is therefore invalid. It's an impossible question.

Hello 3sigma,

3sigma said:

[FONT=&quot]Is there some net benefit to be gained, either for me or for society, by my becoming a Christian that could not be gained by my remaining an atheist? Bear in mind that I am sceptical by nature, which probably explains my atheism, so please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that whatever benefit you propose is real.[/FONT]

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The problem you will face with this line of approach, is that last part I highlighted. Not because God is not real, but beacuse our realities differ, in much the same way that reality for a colour-blind person, and reality for someone who does not have that disability, are two very different things - but not because coloured light does not exist, understand.

The best that I imagine you can hope for, if you are looking to find God, or something that testifies to His presence in our universe is one of two things: 1) You will have a strong, spiritual encounter, that will leave no room for doubt in your mind, or 2) You will find the idea of God so believable and convincing, that you will feel the same way as in the first point. There is quite likely a third point, in which neither 1 nor 2 will apply to you, and you will remain a non-theist. I would not lose heart at that prospect, as it took me almost 28 years to come to believe in God, so perhaps (for whatever reason) the time is simply not right for you at the moment.

In regards to your question, and ignoring the issue I raised about reality for you and I, I think there are some strong benefits. First and foremost, a relationship with God or (since I cannot provide evidence for you in such a small post for God) lets say being spiritual, has benefits. I think, looking back in our lives, many of us can identify that we often fuel our lives with various things. We spend long hours at work, strive for perfection and success and other times we adopt more unhealthy habits such as drugs or drink. To the degree, that it feels like we are constantly seeking something, yet we cannot put our finger on what that is. Christians will be able to tell you in an instant, because for us, God has filled that hole - which nothing else could. Where others are still waking up years later, feeling like they've lost out on something, they are missing something and so on, we have God and do not feel this way.

Another benefit, aside from salvation and eternal life which I don't think there is any way you are going to buy in to currently is that we do out utmost to uphold Christlike integrity. This covers many aspects, but chiefly I know because of this, I can trust any Christian implicitly, and I do so, and we operate from a common set of rules, those which God put forth for us. Skipping over the main ones like not commiting murder, we place a great deal of importance on doing the right thing, even when no one else will know. That's what real integrity is, and being surrounded by people who share that vision is fantastic, especially in this world we live in where really, people think twice before even offering a homeless person a single dollar, that is, if they even acknowledge that person at all. The chief message of Christianity is hope, and being a part of that and working towards making things better, I think, is a fulfilling life. Essentially, if you were in a bad position and called for help, would you not want someone to come to your aid? I would, and that's what Christianity is saying, treat others how you wish to be treated.

Many countries were built on these principles, the USA was, Australia and the UK were too. Most of mankinds common law that we take for granted is an extrapolated version of the ten commandments.

Ultimately we live in a world that is fast rejecting God, and His principles. It's easy to look at the Bible and think "Conspiracy", that it was man-made and orchestrated and simply a story, yet that raises so many questions with highly unprobably answers that I'm often surprised it's believed more than the concept of a God. That's a whole other topic, but what I am hinting at is that most people today, in this world we live in, understand (to a basic leve) the Big Bang theory, and many people believe that prior to this, our physical world, our time, matter and space did not exist. Yet for some reason, no one asks, "What did?" and we so easily reject any notion of the spiritual, despite so many people finding truth in the Bible, and believing in God. It seems illogical to me, that given how often our scientific and medical theories change, from a day to day basis, that based on our tiny window of existence on this world, we are so certain that there is no God, and life is what we have of it.

Which raises another interesting point, why if this is all there is to life, do we have this unsatisfied hunger for more? We have people in this world who can do anything, money is no issue for them and some have even booked space tours when the technology is available, but all of them, are unfulfilled. I wish I could remember the interview I read recently, from a star who admitted deep lonliness and solitude.

This is turning into a long post, and I understand that you may feel many of these do not require God, which, to a degree, is true. But, I can create an original work of art, and someone can copy it thus eliminating the requirement of me doing it - that does not mean however that I do not exist or have nothing to offer. I started it all, in the first place. Just like I believe God did.

Digit

3sigma said:

Digit,

I have a few things I would like you to clarify, please. But first let me repeat a point I made earlier so that you and others don’t misunderstand my situation. I do not have a hole in my life. I do not feel that I have lost out on something or I’m missing something. I do not feel the need to hope that there is some meaning or purpose to life other than that which I create myself. So any alleged benefits arising from God filling this non-existent hole are of no use to me personally.

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As honestly as you say that, I will honestly say I do not believe it. As I said, it took me 28 years plus/minus, to come to terms with the fact that despite what I thought throughout all my life, I was indeed unhappy about things and desperately wanted more. If someone how approached me as I have you, and told me that, I would have said the same thing as you. I understand how frustrating it can be to be told something that you know for certain is not so, is in fact, so, and how arrogant it may seem, but it's the truth. There is a hole there, yet you may not be aware of it.

3sigma said:

Granted, there may be many insecure people who feel the need for this hope, but you would still need to provide some sound, objective evidence to show that becoming Christian results in a net benefit to society before I will accept it and there is some evidence to suggest that this is not the case.

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It's not to do with insecurity at all.

Think about this for a second, the Bible says that God placed eternity in man's heart. Meaning, we are made for eternity. The promise of all religions, if you boil right down to it, is eternal life. It is evident we are made in this way, because we just have to look at mankinds desires to know it's true.

Yet not everyone is able to acknowledge this, as by our nature, our hearts are wicked. Augustine once said that as a baby, had he the power in him, he would likely strangle his mother for milk. There are no innocent or good humans. From the day we are born, we are filled with selfish desires. It's a harsh way to view things, but ultimtely I cannot disagree with it, if I did, I would fly in the face of facts that I see everyday. Through sin, we close that hole. Only the Holy Spirit can create it again for us. It was only until I found a real reason to consider the existence of God that I became aware of it myself.

Read more here.

3sigma said:

Could you clarify this, please? Are you saying that all Christians can be trusted implicitly and that Christians commit fewer murders and other crimes than non-Christians? You almost seem to be implying that a Christian would not commit a murder or other crime.

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It's not so much that we never do these things, we are still fallen humans, just as everyone else. The only thing that makes us different is that we have a way out of sin, whereas non-theists do not. So, I do trust Christians I know more so than someone without God in their life, not because I believe they will never make a mistake, but because I know they are honest and open about it, and will try their best to do the right thing given the circumstances.

Consdier this - people pirate movies, games and music all the time. For some reason, they have managed to do the mental gymnastics required to convince themself it is not a crime, and not wrong. I've had some conversations with people like this before, and ultimately it comes down to two results: 1) They understand what they did was wrong and make amends. 2) They understand what they did was wrong and don't care. In fact, that was the exact reply I got once, "I guess I just don't care.".

Is that a good person? Someone who just doesn't care, if there is an easy road to take, they will take it no matter what the cost? Think about factory farming for a moment. Many businesses make their profit from the torture of animals. My wife watched a video a while back, one of the major supplies of chicken meat for KFC, who has been awarded numerous health and safety awards, and humane treatment notices for their factory farms. An undercover reporter went and worked there over 6 months. During this time he videotaped people taking chickens and hurling them against the walls, jumping on them until they ruptured, squeezing them until they defecated themselves. The birds are kept in cages which are not cleaned, their waste accumulates and the concentration of amonia burns the skin off their legs. They are de-feathered by being dunked in boiling oil. Prior to this, a machine electrocutes them to stun them, yet this had a very low success rate, and the video showed live chickens flapping about in the boilding oil.

But, none of that matters to anyone, because we are distanced from it, just as we are from the effects of digital piracy. How much do you know about the industries you support? Can we really be good people when we "just don't care" about these things?

I think having God in our lives, is a healthy pressure in a way, as every action, every thought must come from Him, so we know what we do is right. Having Him there, being a constant reminder of our actions and behaviour helps us to negate the worst in ourselves.

3sigma said:

Are you implying that Christians will render aid to others more readily than non-Christians? Are you implying that the golden rule is followed more by Christians than non-Christians?

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Yes.

3sigma said:

[FONT=&quot]Who is certain there is no God? I would have thought that Christians were certain that there is a God.[/FONT]

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Apparenlty you are. Else you would be agnostic, no? Much of the world is very certain. My boss is, Richard Dawkins is. Where did this certainty come from?

Digit

3sigma said:

If you substitute Santa Claus for God in your quote above, does it coincide with your lack of belief in Santa Claus? Do you believe that Santa Claus doesn’t exist; do you not believe that Santa Claus exists; or are you agnostic about your belief in Santa Claus? Ask yourself why you don’t believe in Santa Claus. Is it because there is a lack of evidence supporting that belief? I’m not trying to be combative; I’m just trying to explain my lack of God belief.

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Santa Claus is not a good example. Santa Claus is not believed to be a transcendant being that is the source of all existence. Besides, St. Nicolas was an actual person who lived during 4th century.

A better example would Zeus or Krishna. I do not believe that either of these gods exist. But I admit that I am making a metaphysical assumption by doing so, because I cannot prove or disprove their existence.

As I had said before, whether you admit that you are making a metaphysical in regards to the non-existence of God or not, it still is what it is. This is why we theologians calls this the metaphysical blind spot of atheism, because most atheists do not see the leap of faith that they are making. As a Christian and a graduate student of theology I fully admit that my belief in God and disbelief in others is a metaphysical assumption.

3sigma said:

But this still doesn’t answer my question. What benefit is there to me or to society to have hope that there is meaning and purpose to our existence? I don’t feel the need to hope that there is some meaning or purpose to our existence other than that which we provide for ourselves. And even if I did feel this need, do I need to become a Christian to have this unnecessary hope?

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Many people in our world need to have a meaning and purpose to existence. And mean to say this in the least condescending way possible. But there will likely be time in your life, probably later in life, when you ask was your life worth it? Have the things you have done in this life made some sort of meaning for your life beyond it? Was there a point to your being here at all once you are gone.?

Christian are not the only ones who have engaged in this discourse. All of philosophy and religion has endeavored to explore this question.

3sigma said:

[FONT=&quot]What is the ‘why’ to which you refer; what is the explanation of this ‘why’; and how does that benefit society or me? Do I need to become a Christian to receive the benefit of this explanation?[/FONT]

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The "why" is the reason we are hear, it is the thing that give meaning to our lives before we exist and after we die. For Christians the why is the Love of God who freely offers grace and mercy to all. The "why" is promise that suffering and death are not the thing which ultimately qualify our existence, rather that there something or someone else that is the meaning maker of our existence.

You do not need to become anything to have a explanation of "why", if you are satisfied that random chance was the reason we are here and that once you are gone, once the universe is gone, that there was no purpose to existence at all, than fine. If it wouldn't have made a difference if nothing existed at all after we are gone, then why don't we just blow up the planet since there is no reason to exist? I for one would find life far too hopeless to life if I believed our existence has that value and purpose as absolute nothingness.

I am sorry if I am sounding "preachy", it is not my intent. Nor am I using this forum to try to convert you.

I would suggest that seeking to gain something by believing in Christianity or any religion will probably not be satisfying. I think the only way you could truly answer your OP question would be to go and try church. Attend a church, of any religion, for a few months and see if it works for you and you find the answer to your question. Otherwise, I don't think your question will be answered satisfactorily in this forum.

3sigma said:

[FONT=&quot]Is there some net benefit to be gained, either for me or for society, by my becoming a Christian that could not be gained by my remaining an atheist? Bear in mind that I am sceptical by nature, which probably explains my atheism, so please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that whatever benefit you propose is real.[/FONT]

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3sig -- your earnest questions are very moving. I surely hope you will ask and keep on asking until you get an answer that fully satisfies you. When I have had these kind of questions, I re-read a very good book for questioners, and that is C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity". He starts more or less where you are and I recommend it wholeheartedly. Available at any bookstore, Christian or otherwise [I even saw a copy at Half Price books this week ]

John