Should flag burners lose citizenship?

[TLK Valentine]

As I said earlier, destroying the symbol of the nation is expressing a desire to destroy the nation. For those who see burning as "speech" this is clearly what such speech is saying.

And since when is expressing a desire to destroy the nation illegal in this nation? When did we start policing desires?

Case in point:

I WANT TO BURN AMERICA TO THE GROUND.

Go ahead; call the cops on me. I dare you...

 

[GoldenBoy89]

And if you take this route, then you're okay with anything that's legal but not moral by conventional standards.

If we are talking about destroying the flag, then yes. You can morally object to it all you want but that doesn't change what anyone is legally allowed to do. If you think it's wrong, then you are free to not take part in it.

Got it.

I seriously doubt that.

You'd be okay with torture at any extent, as long as it's legal.

Now you're just making stuff up about me without even knowing me. I'd appreciate it if you stop lying about positions I've never taken and statements I've never made. Thanks in advance.

Awesome, then we just make it a law and you lose.

Sure, just go right ahead and change the most fundamental law our country was founded upon, the First Amendement.

I'd love to see you try it. If the poll taken in this thread is any indication of the support your side might get in this fight, you have a very long way to go before flag burning is ever made illegal.

FYI, it was a law for quite awhile, so I guess you support anything that is a law by this logic.

You guess wrong.

 

[Chesterton]

Can someone not express a desire to destroy the nation? I mean this sincerely. If I saw someone post on here that they'd like to see the United States crumble and be replaced by anarchy, I'd assume it was their right to express such a desire.

And since when is expressing a desire to destroy the nation illegal in this nation? When did we start policing desires?

In answer to both of you I'd remind you that Obama regularly has people killed for doing such.

Case in point:

I WANT TO BURN AMERICA TO THE GROUND.

Go ahead; call the cops on me. I dare you...

Well that's dumb because this thread is about whether such should be make illegal. It's acknowledged that it's not illegal now. However I would refer you to the recent announcement that probably makes that reportable in this forum: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/all-read-anti-americanism.7975732/

 

[Aryeh]

Can someone not express a desire to destroy the nation? I mean this sincerely. If I saw someone post on here that they'd like to see the United States crumble and be replaced by anarchy, I'd assume it was their right to express such a desire.

Absolutely.

Patriotism, nationalism and the nation itself are tertiarily joined in philosophy and practice by many. So, it is hard to see how someone could dislike the NATION, but also be patriotic and even nationalstic.

Many of the Americans who burn American flags are incredibly oppressed, disenfranchised groups of people who are using their constitutional rights to show their disdain for the NATION'S TRAJECTORY, not necessarily the nation itself. Those persons may LOVE the nation that used to be, and not the monster it has become. So, burning the symbol of that monster is a PROTEST to the MONSTER, not the nation.

That is protected by the constitution; the action does not automatically constitute hate for country, or hate for what it [is supposed to] represents.

You can absolutely dislike the nation without intentions to destroy it. The push back comes from the idolatry of the flag: it means more to some than the actual veterans who fought for the country! The flag is not the country.

 

[TLK Valentine]

In answer to both of you I'd remind you that Obama regularly has people killed for doing such.

We're referring to the real world; the "conspiracy theory" forum is elsewhere.

Well that's dumb because this thread is about whether such should be make illegal. It's acknowledged that it's not illegal now. However I would refer you to the recent announcement that probably makes that reportable in this forum: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/all-read-anti-americanism.7975732/

Report me, then.

 

[LoAmmi]

In answer to both of you I'd remind you that Obama regularly has people killed for doing such.

US citizens in the US?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

As I said earlier, destroying the symbol of the nation is expressing a desire to destroy the nation. For those who see burning as "speech" this is clearly what such speech is saying.

Personally, I'd rather have the America haters make themselves known publicly instead of keeping it to themselves where it creates resentment and possibly leads to much more violent outbursts against the country.

 

[Aryeh]

If you have intentions of destroying any nation, and act on it in a threatening way, you are not protected. You are an enemy of the state. So please let's stop the insinuation that flag burning protests equates to an enemy of the state. That is the argument of Trump, and Mousellini (or perhaps more contemporary, Berlusconi.)

 

[LouisBooth]

Now you're just making stuff up about me without even knowing me.

So you're saying you're logically inconsistent. Got it. Love your circular reasoning here though. It's entertaining.

Sure, just go right ahead and change the most fundamental law our country was founded upon, the First Amendement

LOL. No, that's not how it works. It's called redefining what flag burning is, just as it was redefined when it was protected. You really ARE not getting this

If the poll taken in this thread is any indication of the support your side might get

so judging by the posts, quite a few atheists, a few Christians, and 1-2 "other". Ya, that's not even close to the country make up.

 

[Chesterton]

We're referring to the real world; the "conspiracy theory" forum is elsewhere.

You've never heard of drone strikes?

Report me, then.

That wasn't a threat. I've never hit the report button on anyone. Just sayin'.

US citizens in the US?

U.S. citizens.

Personally, I'd rather have the America haters make themselves known publicly instead of keeping it to themselves where it creates resentment and possibly leads to much more violent outbursts against the country.

I agree.

 

[LoAmmi]

U.S. citizens.

You could just answer no. Being on US soil is very different from being abroad. Now, I don't think that US citizens SHOULD be targeted even if they are abroad, since I still think they should have due process.

Do you believe if I said openly that I think the US government should topple so that a grand monarchy can rise, would you view that as something I should be arrested for?

 

[LoAmmi]

If you have intentions of destroying any nation, and act on it in a threatening way, you are not protected. You are an enemy of the state. So please let's stop the insinuation that flag burning protests equates to an enemy of the state. That is the argument of Trump, and Mousellini (or perhaps more contemporary, Berlusconi.)

Acting on it illegally I'd say. Someone could, in theory, run for office under the platform of destroying the US government and that should be protected. Or petition their congress members to work toward taking down the Constitutional Republic.

 

[Chesterton]

You could just answer no. Being on US soil is very different from being abroad. Now, I don't think that US citizens SHOULD be targeted even if they are abroad, since I still think they should have due process.

Well the question was irrelevant. People can be arrested on U.S. soil for treason.

Do you believe if I said openly that I think the US government should topple so that a grand monarchy can rise, would you view that as something I should be arrested for?

Depends on circumstances I guess.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

So you're saying you're logically inconsistent. Got it. Love your circular reasoning here though.

No, I'm saying you are making stuff up about me without knowing a thing about me... It was in plain English. Or do you need me to translate it for you? Please stop.

LOL. No, that's not how it works. It's called redefining what flag burning is, just as it was redefined when it was protected.

Like I said, change the First Amendment. That's where the Supreme Court pulled it's definition from.

You really ARE not getting this

I get it just fine. You don't have any real argument against flag burning so your hope is that someday there will be enough Supreme Court justices with as limited of an understanding of the constitution as the flag worshipers have, and that apparently includes now, our President-elect.

so judging by the posts, quite a few atheists, a few Christians, and 1-2 "other". Ya, that's not even close to the country make up.

I guess my point went over your head. Either way, it is not the flag burners who have to convince anyone of their argument. It's up to those who want to criminalize freedom to come up with a good enough argument to pull it off.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well the question was irrelevant. People can be arrested on U.S. soil for treason.

They can be, but would what we're describing be treason?

Depends on circumstances I guess.

Exactly.

 

[pgp_protector]

In answer to both of you I'd remind you that Obama regularly has people killed for doing such.



Well that's dumb because this thread is about whether such should be make illegal. It's acknowledged that it's not illegal now. However I would refer you to the recent announcement that probably makes that reportable in this forum: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/all-read-anti-americanism.7975732/

Are you thinking that CF is the American Government now?
Any private entity can ban what ever they want.
They don't like your name? Guess what they can ban it.

 

[Chesterton]

They can be, but would what we're describing be treason?

Exactly.

Flag burning? It looks like it to me. Or expressing a desire to commit treason.

Are you thinking that CF is the American Government now?
Any private entity can ban what ever they want.
They don't like your name? Guess what they can ban it.

No, I was just giving our friend a friendly reminder in case he might want to edit that lest some reporting type person decides to report it.

 

[LoAmmi]

Flag burning? It looks like it to me. Or expressing a desire to commit treason.

Or just expressing a desire for the government to be gone. But without actions, it's just speech. Not all speech is protected, of course, but I don't think expressing displeasure at our government qualifies for treason.

 

[pgp_protector]

Flag burning? It looks like it to me. Or expressing a desire to commit treason.

No, I was just giving our friend a friendly reminder in case he might want to edit that lest some reporting type person decides to report it.

Well it's not goading, it IS relevant to the post, does not personally attack anyone, so there's nothing to report.

 

[Chesterton]

Well it's not goading, it IS relevant to the post, does not personally attack anyone, so there's nothing to report.

If only I had a dollar for every time I've used those exact words trying to explain to a mod...