Should Christians Walk in the God's Ways?

Should Christians walk in God's Ways?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 90.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10

FreeAtLast

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Fulfilling the Law also refers to filling up or completing one's understanding of it or to meeting one's obligation to it,

NO, it does not. I'm sorry but you are ignoring the real definitions and creating and cherry picking ones that fit your opinion. Please read them again. Fulfill is to complete. The Mosaic law requirements were completed, filled up, by Yeshua. There are no more requirements left.

To say otherwise is to disregard what Yeshua did and state that there is more needed to be pleasing to G-d. However, that is in direct contrast to the Scriptures.

Please consider this dangerous doctrine you are espousing. The sacrifice that Yeshua made, His death, resurrection and implementing of His New Covenant is all well and good, but Adonai still *requires* us to adhere to the OLD system that He said has passed away. So, you are preaching another Gospel, one of works, or aka Jesus PLUS the Law. That is very, very dangerous.

In Matthew 5:17-19, after Yeshua said he came to fulfill the Law, not to abolish, he said that not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and until all has been accomplished, neither of which has happened yet, both of which refer to end times are are ways of saying that it is never gonna happen.

That is the view that you choose to believe, just like you cherry picked a definition for fulfill that matched your views. That is not proper hermeneutics. The view that I see in the Scriptures is inline with the entire Word where the Law has been made null and void, yet remains as lessons to us. The Law of Moses was Adonai's intricate plan to show us that we needed a Savior because of our sin. It was never meant to last once Yeshua came. So Yeshua told us not to disregard what we should learn about it, but He did NOT say any place to observe the Law under the New Covenant, that just isn't there, no matter how much you want it to be. Hermeneutics is having the Scriptures speak the truth, not reading into them what is not there.

Look at the verses you quoted closely:

1) Yeshua did not come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. As stated previously, this upholds the whole counsel of Scripture, the Law is not evil, the Law is good, the Law showed us our sin and need for a Savior as well as G-d's wisdom and how He dealt with His children - for our education and edification. We are not to disregard it.

We know that this is the correct understanding because He also brings in the Prophets. He is not telling us to act like the Prophets! He is saying the same as about the Law. Do not disregard them, they are for our education. Your view does not hold up when we view these verses in context and in detail.

2) Yeshua fulfilled the Law. As previously pointed out, that means He completed it. It's done and finished. Complete. You cannot simply cherry pick a definition that you like because it fits your view, when the definition says something different.

3) He said that not one tiny part of the Law would disappear until it was "all accomplished". He just finished saying that He had fulfilled the Law, every tiny part, every jot, every iota, He completed. And He is now affirming that it is "all accomplished". By Him. Done and completed.

4) Then Yeshua goes on to say not to relax "these commandments" and not to teach others to do the same. What commandments? The Old Covenant ones? No! He just told us that He completed them, so they are no more to follow. The "commandments" Yeshua is referring to are the ones He spoke of just a few moments before, the Sermon on the Mount. His NEW commandments in the New Covenant.

He went on to warn that whoever relaxed the least of the commands or taught others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom, while whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom, and this is a warning that I think you should take seriously because I would much rather be called great in the Kingdom.

Why thank you for your concern, but you need not worry about me. I believe you are misinterpreting the Scriptures and elevating the Law where Yeshua freed us from it. So, you see, you are the one who had better take this seriously because what you're preaching denies Yeshua's work on the cross.

Furthermore, Yeshua did not say anything throughout his entire ministry specifically in regard to the concept of how you've defined the term.

Wrong. If you look at His words with the correct understanding, as I've explained above, His words clearly explain that we are to obey His NEW commandments, not the old and the correct definition, which is upheld by the whole of Scripture, is that the Mosaic Law was completed by Yeshua.

I believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, do you? To say that the way to act in accordance with God's attributes has changed is to say that God's attributes have changed, but God's attributes are eternal and do not change.

That is a fallacious argument. G-d's attributes can never change, but how He deals with His people did. Look through the Old Testament, there are several changes and they are all different. Yet, HE never changes. Your fallacy is in stating that recognizing the truth that how G-d deals with His people had changed, somehow says His attributes have changed. Wrong conclusion. They are two different issues and not one that you have mashed them into. Actions are not attributes.

Look, honestly, I've seen you post this same old false doctrine over and over and over. Nothing anyone says makes any difference to you. So, why do you keep on posting it? Just go ahead and place yourself under the Law if that's what you believe. And go in peace.
 
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Bob S

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God doesn't change. He planned the way He was going to save mankind and all up to this moment are part of the plan. The plan has gone through several covenant relationships. God's plan for Noah was to eat anything he desired. God's plan for Abraham was for circumcision which Noah was not subject. The Israelites were given days to keep and many more prohibitions like the unclean meat laws, health laws, civil laws and on and on. Christians have a plan too. It is very similar to Abraham's plan, but our circumcision is of the heart. Please do not use the excuse that because God does not change so we have to keep laws of another plan.
 
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Bob S

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To tell us that Jesus didn't do all that is to be done is really telling us that Jesus was not able to accomplish all He came to do. The last word He uttered was "it is finished". And to tell us that it is not finished because Heaven and Earth are still here is not reasonable. Jesus used those words not as something that was to happen in the future, He used it as an allegory and then modified it with the word "until".
 
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FreeAtLast

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To tell us that Jesus didn't do all that is to be done is really telling us that Jesus was not able to accomplish all He came to do. The last word He uttered was "it is finished". And to tell us that it is not finished because Heaven and Earth are still here is not reasonable. Jesus used those words not as something that was to happen in the future, He used it as an allegory and then modified it with the word "until".

This "Torah observance" false doctrine is a dangerous one and it elevates US over Yeshua and HE accomplished. He did it all! He already accomplished it all when He fulfilled the Law of Moses.
 
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SAAN

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This "Torah observance" false doctrine is a dangerous one and it elevates US over Yeshua and HE accomplished. He did it all! He already accomplished it all when He fulfilled the Law of Moses.

Like it or not, Christians do observe a good 80%+ of the Torah. Dont lie, steal, kill, commit adultery, worship other Gods, etc, are ALL commands from Torah. There was no such thing as the New Testament back then, so all they had was the Torah, so every commands you see them teaching and repeating is from the Old Testament. The main difference between OC and NC is that the OC had the blood of animals cover your sin and the NC had the blood of the Messiah cover your sin.

Why and how can God write his Laws on our hearts in the New Covenant if they are abolished?

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

This verse makes it pretty clear that God does nothing that he doesn't reveal through his prophets first. There are the Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus and other examples like sending a messenger(John the baptist), the telling of the future in Daniel and some of the other Prophets that agree with Revelations, and more.


So where in any of the prophets did God reveal to them that the 10 commandments were temporary or that he was going to abolish all of his commands in the future???
 
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Soyeong

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NO, it does not. I'm sorry but you are ignoring the real definitions and creating and cherry picking ones that fit your opinion. Please read them again. Fulfill is to complete. The Mosaic law requirements were completed, filled up, by Yeshua. There are no more requirements left.

Can you please acknowledge that "to perform or execute a matter of duty" and "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should" are real definitions that are listed as possibilities that the term can mean and that I've given reasons for why I think Yeshua was using the term in accordance with those definitions and why I think he wasn't using the other definitions? I hope that you can dispense with the rhetoric of "ignoring the real definitions and creating and cherry picking ones that fit your opinion" so that we can have a fruitful discussion about how to word should be correctly interpreted. I've even given reasons for why the other definitions fit with filling up our knowledge of the Law, which is something Yeshua did throughout Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly obey it, so I'm not ignoring definitions, and I would appreciate it if you would at least consider the possibility that Yeshua was using the definition I listed.

Again, this is the way that the term is used in other verses and other Jewish writings. For example, you do not interpret "fulfilling the Law of Christ" in Galatians 6:2 or "fulfilling the Gospel" in Romans 15:18-19 in a way that is consistent with how you interpret "fulfilling the Law and the Prophets".

To say otherwise is to disregard what Yeshua did and state that there is more needed to be pleasing to G-d. However, that is in direct contrast to the Scriptures.

I am not disregarding what he said, but rather I interpret what he said differently than you do. The way to please God is to live by faith and living by faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's will. For instance, every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone submitting to God's will. Yeshua said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law, so you should not consider submitting to God's commands as adding something more apart from faith.

Please consider this dangerous doctrine you are espousing. The sacrifice that Yeshua made, His death, resurrection and implementing of His New Covenant is all well and good, but Adonai still *requires* us to adhere to the OLD system that He said has passed away. So, you are preaching another Gospel, one of works, or aka Jesus PLUS the Law. That is very, very dangerous.

In Mark 4:17, 23, Yeshua began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law is how his audience knew what sin was, so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message. In Acts 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel message also involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and indeed, so he was on the same page as Yeshua in teaching repentance from our sins, and I am teaching the same Gospel as they did. This obedience is not adding our works to the Gospel, but rather it is an integral part of the Gospel and why it is good news.

That is the view that you choose to believe, just like you cherry picked a definition for fulfill that matched your views. That is not proper hermeneutics. The view that I see in the Scriptures is inline with the entire Word where the Law has been made null and void, yet remains as lessons to us. The Law of Moses was Adonai's intricate plan to show us that we needed a Savior because of our sin. It was never meant to last once Yeshua came. So Yeshua told us not to disregard what we should learn about it, but He did NOT say any place to observe the Law under the New Covenant, that just isn't there, no matter how much you want it to be. Hermeneutics is having the Scriptures speak the truth, not reading into them what is not there.

I agree that the Law was given to reveal what sin is to show our need for a Savior, but it was also given to teach us how to walk in God's ways like our Savior. Our sanctification is about being made into someone who does what is holy, righteous, and good like Christ, or in other words being made into someone who is Torah observant like him in reflecting God's image to the world. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being training to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, so following God's instructions for how to do that is not adding to our salvation, but is part of what our salvation from sin is, and is no less part of the New Covenant.

According to Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, so there is nothing about that that is temporary. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness has become null and void, then it would only be because God's righteousness has first become null and void, but God's righteousness is likewise eternal (Psalms 119:142).

Look at the verses you quoted closely:

1) Yeshua did not come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. As stated previously, this upholds the whole counsel of Scripture, the Law is not evil, the Law is good, the Law showed us our sin and need for a Savior as well as G-d's wisdom and how He dealt with His children - for our education and edification. We are not to disregard it.

We know that this is the correct understanding because He also brings in the Prophets. He is not telling us to act like the Prophets! He is saying the same as about the Law. Do not disregard them, they are for our education. Your view does not hold up when we view these verses in context and in detail.

You just said that the Law has been made null and void and now you say that he did not come to abolish it? In the New Covenant, we are required to actually do what is holy, righteous, and good, and to refrain from sin, not just learn about how to do that. In James 2:20, faith without works is dead, and in Romans 2:13, it is not the hearers of the Law who will be justified, but the doers.

2) Yeshua fulfilled the Law. As previously pointed out, that means He completed it. It's done and finished. Complete. You cannot simply cherry pick a definition that you like because it fits your view, when the definition says something different.

We are discussing what he meant by that, so asserting your conclusion as a reason for why I should accept your conclusion is circular.

3) He said that not one tiny part of the Law would disappear until it was "all accomplished". He just finished saying that He had fulfilled the Law, every tiny part, every jot, every iota, He completed. And He is now affirming that it is "all accomplished". By Him. Done and completed.

A major problem with this is that Yeshua also said that it would not happen until heaven and earth disappeared, which last I checked are still here, and will not disappear until the events spoken in Revelation 21:1 come to pass, so "until all is accomplished" is inclusive of everything that happens in the end times. A 2nd problem is that Yeshua did not obey the jot and tiddle of single Law before his death, such as the laws relating to a woman's period or giving birth, or that pertained to the duties of the High Priest. A 3rd problem is that Titus 2:14 says that Yeshua gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, not that he gave himself to free us from the Law and from having to do the good works that it instructs. A 4th problem is that it would not have made sense for him to have spent his entire ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law by word and by example and commissioning his disciples to make their own disciples teaching them everything that he had taught them, if he was planning on completing it so that his followers no longer had to follow him, but rather he set an example so that he followers would follow it, as we are instructed to do (1 Peter 2:21-22). A 5th problem is that Yeshua said nothing specifically in regard to his death in Matthew 5 and did not teach anything specifically about concept of completing the law so that people would no longer have to follow it after his death, nor would his audience have understood him as referring to that.

4) Then Yeshua goes on to say not to relax "these commandments" and not to teach others to do the same. What commandments? The Old Covenant ones? No! He just told us that He completed them, so they are no more to follow. The "commandments" Yeshua is referring to are the ones He spoke of just a few moments before, the Sermon on the Mount. His NEW commandments in the New Covenant.

The Beatitudes are rooted in the OT, such as with Psalms 24, Psalms 37:11 and Isaiah 61:1-9 (Luke 4:16-21), so he was not saying anything brand new and the commandments are all in accordance with the Law. In John 14:23-24, Yeshua said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, and in John 6:38 that he came only to do the Father's will, so he did not depart from the teachings of the Father in the slightest.

Why thank you for your concern, but you need not worry about me. I believe you are misinterpreting the Scriptures and elevating the Law where Yeshua freed us from it. So, you see, you are the one who had better take this seriously because what you're preaching denies Yeshua's work on the cross.

Our salvation is from sin and sin, the Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is, and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law, so our salvation is not from the Law, but from living in transgression of the Law. Again, Titus 2:14 does not say that he came to free us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness, so to return to our Lawlessness is to deny what he gave himself to accomplish.

Wrong. If you look at His words with the correct understanding, as I've explained above, His words clearly explain that we are to obey His NEW commandments, not the old and the correct definition, which is upheld by the whole of Scripture, is that the Mosaic Law was completed by Yeshua.

Yeshua did not say anything along these lines:

"I am giving myself to complete the Law and free you from having to follow it, my teachings, and my example."

That is a fallacious argument. G-d's attributes can never change, but how He deals with His people did. Look through the Old Testament, there are several changes and they are all different. Yet, HE never changes. Your fallacy is in stating that recognizing the truth that how G-d deals with His people had changed, somehow says His attributes have changed. Wrong conclusion. They are two different issues and not one that you have mashed them into. Actions are not attributes.

God's commands are not arbitrary, but rather they were given to instruct people how to walk in His ways, which are in accordance with His attributes. For example, when we follow the Law's instructions to help the poor, we are reflecting God's righteousness to the world. If at some point in the future helping the poor is no longer reflecting God's righteousness, then that wouldn't just be God dealing with people differently, but would mean that God's righteousness is no longer what it once was. God can perhaps reveal more instructions about how to practice righteousness, but practicing righteousness will always be inclusive of helping the poor and everything else that God has revealed to for how to reflect His righteousness.

Look, honestly, I've seen you post this same old false doctrine over and over and over. Nothing anyone says makes any difference to you. So, why do you keep on posting it? Just go ahead and place yourself under the Law if that's what you believe. And go in peace.

I've only interacted with you a few times, so I've hardly had time to do anything over and over and over or for you to have grounds to say that nothing anyone says makes any difference. I've been persuaded to change my opinion many times, even about something as major as the role of the Mosaic Law in our lives, so that proves that I am not unwilling to consider whether there is any merit to positions that I disagree with. I keep posting both because I want to continue to learn and because I love others enough to share what I've learned. I see that the Law was given to reveal what sin is, that we should not do what God has revealed to be sin, and I seek to gently correct those who are caught in sin.
 
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Soyeong

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This "Torah observance" false doctrine is a dangerous one and it elevates US over Yeshua and HE accomplished. He did it all! He already accomplished it all when He fulfilled the Law of Moses.

Do you believe that according to according to 1 John 3:4-6 that sin is defined as the transgression of the Law and we a required to refrain from practicing sin? Do you believe that according to 1 John 3:10, that those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God and that according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that all OT Scriptures are profitable for training in righteousness? Do you agree that practicing righteousness means that we are require to follow the instructions that God has given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness? Do you agree that God's righteousness does not change, so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness does not change, which means that anything that God has ever instructed for how to practice righteousness will always be a valid?

Torah observance is not about elevating us over what Yeshua accomplished but about what we ought to do because of what he accomplished and about follow his teachings and his example. In Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as doing things in accordance with the Law, which are not adding to our salvation, but it what our salvation from sin involves. It says that he gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so this training to obey the Law is part of what he accomplished.
 
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Soyeong

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God doesn't change. He planned the way He was going to save mankind and all up to this moment are part of the plan. The plan has gone through several covenant relationships. God's plan for Noah was to eat anything he desired. God's plan for Abraham was for circumcision which Noah was not subject. The Israelites were given days to keep and many more prohibitions like the unclean meat laws, health laws, civil laws and on and on. Christians have a plan too. It is very similar to Abraham's plan, but our circumcision is of the heart. Please do not use the excuse that because God does not change so we have to keep laws of another plan.

I see no reason to think that if Adam and Eve were permitted to kill animals for clothing that they were not also permitted to kill them for food. There is much evidence of many of God's Laws being in place throughout Genesis, and we can see an example of this in the fact that Noah was instructed what to do with clean and unclean animals without being instructed how to differentiate between them, so it follows that he had been given prior instructions about not eating unclean animals. While on the Ark, Noah was temporarily restricted to eating the same food as the other animals for obvious reason (Genesis 6:21), so so God giving him permission to eat animals again was lifting the prohibition, not granting him anything new. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are instructed to do what is holy for God is holy, so refraining from eating unclean animals is about walking in God's ways in accordance with His eternal holiness. It is also fairly straightforward that having a holy conduct involves observing God's holy days. The way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law (Romans 2:26), which is the same way to recognize that a Jew has a circumcised heart (Deuteronomy 30:6). God only has one plan of redemption.

To tell us that Jesus didn't do all that is to be done is really telling us that Jesus was not able to accomplish all He came to do. The last word He uttered was "it is finished". And to tell us that it is not finished because Heaven and Earth are still here is not reasonable. Jesus used those words not as something that was to happen in the future, He used it as an allegory and then modified it with the word "until".

According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, so following God's instructions by grace through faith for how to do that is not adding to our salvation, but is part of what our salvation from sin is. Furthermore, it says that Christ gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so again being purified as someone of his own possession who is zealous for following God's instructions for how to do good works is not about adding to what he accomplished or saying that he was not able to accomplish what he came to do, but it is part of what he accomplished. When Jesus said that it was finished, he was not referring to the Law, but to his redemptive work and when Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, he said nothing to indicate that he was speaking in regard to his death, but rather "until heaven and earth pass" indicates that he was speaking about end times. So what Jesus was referring to was certainly finished, but not everything has been accomplished yet because there is still the 2nd coming and everything Revelation says comes with that.
 
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Bob S

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I see no reason to think that if Adam and Eve were permitted to kill animals for clothing that they were not also permitted to kill them for food. There is much evidence of many of God's Laws being in place throughout Genesis, and we can see an example of this in the fact that Noah was instructed what to do with clean and unclean animals without being instructed how to differentiate between them, so it follows that he had been given prior instructions about not eating unclean animals. While on the Ark, Noah was temporarily restricted to eating the same food as the other animals for obvious reason (Genesis 6:21), so so God giving him permission to eat animals again was lifting the prohibition, not granting him anything new. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are instructed to do what is holy for God is holy, so refraining from eating unclean animals is about walking in God's ways in accordance with His eternal holiness. It is also fairly straightforward that having a holy conduct involves observing God's holy days. The way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law (Romans 2:26),25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. *26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? which is the same way to recognize that a Jew has a circumcised heart (Deuteronomy 30:6). 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. God only has one plan of redemption.
I see that you have added your own thoughts to scripture. We do not know what Noah ate while on the ark. Maybe a cow or a pig gave birth while floating around. He may have had a delicious meal of veal or a pig roast. All that is speculation as is what you wrote All we have to go by is God's words as quoted by Moses. Noah was allowed to eat anything he wanted, period. No "buts" or "Ifs".
* added since the writer didn't.

As to God only having one plan of salvation I fully agree. The problem kies that you will not agree to the plan taking several different courses for different peoples.


According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, so following God's instructions by grace through faith for how to do that is not adding to our salvation,
I agree. the problem is we do not agree what constitutes sin. You say it is a sin to not walk under the law as Jesus did. I adamantly do not agree with that belief. If we are not under the law then we are not sinning when we do not observe ritual commands given only to Israel for their way of life.

but is part of what our salvation from sin is. Furthermore, it says that Christ gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so again being purified as someone of his own possession who is zealous for following God's instructions for how to do good works is not about adding to what he accomplished or saying that he was not able to accomplish what he came to do, but it is part of what he accomplished.
I hope you are not referring to works of the law because if you are you are denying all that Paul wrote concerning the subject. You admitted we are not under the law and still insist we must keep parts of the law that are never definable by scripture or you.


When Jesus said that it was finished, he was not referring to the Law, but to his redemptive work and when Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, he said nothing to indicate that he was speaking in regard to his death, but rather "until heaven and earth pass" indicates that he was speaking about end times. So what Jesus was referring to was certainly finished, but not everything has been accomplished yet because there is still the 2nd coming and everything Revelation says comes with that.
I didn't write that what He said indicated His death. How did you derive at that? I wrote that the He came did ALL that He came to do, fulfilled all the law and uttered the words "it is finished" indicating the law was to an end, Satan was defeated. Mankind does not have to worry about the ministry that brought death or any of the other 603 laws that governed Israel. We are under a new and better government.
 
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FreeAtLast

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Do you believe that according to according to 1 John 3:4-6 that sin is defined as the transgression of the Law and we a required to refrain from practicing sin? Do you believe that according to 1 John 3:10, that those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God and that according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that all OT Scriptures are profitable for training in righteousness? Do you agree that practicing righteousness means that we are require to follow the instructions that God has given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness? Do you agree that God's righteousness does not change, so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness does not change, which means that anything that God has ever instructed for how to practice righteousness will always be a valid?

The point is, I DISAGREE with your interpretation of the Scriptures you posted. I absolutely disagree with your opinions about the Scriptures that you are espousing and I believe you are completely wrong. You are indeed elevating the Law of Moses when Yeshua replaced it with His New Covenant and that, is a dangerous false doctrine. You are saying that Yeshua's sacrifice was not enough, that to be saved and pleasing to G-d WE must perform works when that is a false Gospel.

Yeshua paid it all. Finished it all. Completed it all. Fulfilled it all. There is nothing more required of the Law of Moses, nothing. We are not required to observe the Law of Moses to be saved, sanctified, a child of G-d or pleasing to Him. It is not us, but Yeshua who practices righteousness, we cannot.

Preaching required Torah observance to born again Believers in Yeshua (His children) is denying Him, His power, His sacrifice and lifting the Law of Moses as an idol.

Paul tells us that if we cling to the Law of Moses when Yeshua freed us from it, we're doing the same as committing adultery against G-d. Please read Romans 7.

6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


  1. "We are not under the law" (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18).
  2. We are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4).
  3. We are delivered from the law (Rom. 7:6).
  4. Yeshua is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4).
  5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Yeshua .... we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24, 25).
  6. "The law" has been abolished (Eph. 2:15).
 
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FreeAtLast

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Can you please acknowledge that "to perform or execute a matter of duty" and "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should" are real definitions that are listed as possibilities

No, because you go past the actual definitions to the very bottom, to the least accurate one simply because it agrees with your opinion. Look at the other definitions, they are in direct opposition to your view, yet you disregard them completely and choose one that is not consistent with other Scriptures, and not accurate.

I have also given reasons why your choice is not what I believe the Scriptures state and taking the whole of Scripture into consideration, the term you are using and applying opposes other Scripture, as I explained.

Again, this is the way that the term is used in other verses and other Jewish writings.

What other verses and what "Jewish writings" are you referring to please. Source proof please.
Are you Jewish?

I posted the Greek word, its definition and application and it does not fit with your opinion, in fact, it is in opposition to it.


You just said that the Law has been made null and void and now you say that he did not come to abolish it?

Please read the rest of what I wrote where I explain what that means. :) Yes, Yeshua made the Law of Moses null and void and yes, Yeshua said He did not abolish it. Please re-read my post.

A major problem with this is that Yeshua also said that it would not happen until heaven and earth disappeared, which last I checked are still here...

I already addressed that and showed you where Yeshua was speaking of the New Covenant commands, not the Old. And yet you come back with the same argument as if I never responded. As I said, you keep posting the same things over and over and over and don't actually listen to what anyone says.

I've only interacted with you a few times, so I've hardly had time to do anything over and over and over

Please actually read what I wrote. Please. I did not say "interact" I said I've seen. One can read the forums without posting and interacting.
 
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FreeAtLast

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or for you to have grounds to say that nothing anyone says makes any difference.

Yes, it is exactly as I pointed out above. You are posting the exact same things even though we've already had this discussion.
 
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FreeAtLast

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Why and how can God write his Laws on our hearts in the New Covenant if they are abolished?

Please read my posts more carefully. I pointed out that Yeshua said that he fulfilled (completed) the Law of Moses, and He said He did not come to abolish it. So, please re-word your question to reflect the facts.

As to why and how G-d can write the laws on our hearts in the New Covenant with the Law of Moses being null and void in the life of the born again Believer...

Please read Jeremiah 31:31-34 for the answer straight from G-d.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the L-rd, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the L-rd. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the L-rd: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the L-rd,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the L-rd. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

You see, what is written on our hearts is NOT the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses), but NEW Covenant, the commands of Yeshua. That is because Yeshua fulfilled the Law of Moses rendering it null and void.


So where in any of the prophets did God reveal to them that the 10 commandments were temporary or that he was going to abolish all of his commands in the future???

Again, read the words of the prophet Jeremiah that was posted which states the NEW Covenant is not the Old one. It was the prophecy fulfilled by Yeshua in Luke 22:20
20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Very clear. I hope that helps you understand.
 
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FreeAtLast

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In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are instructed to do what is holy for God is holy, so refraining from eating unclean animals is about walking in God's ways in accordance with His eternal holiness.

These verses do not say anything about eating "unclean" animals, so your argument here is your opinion, not Scripture. You make an assumption here that is not supported by Scripture. Let's look at these verses:

1 Peter 13-16
13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Where do you see anything about adhering to the Law of Moses? Your opinion of "holy" is not what the Scriptures say here.

It is also fairly straightforward that having a holy conduct involves observing God's holy days.

No it is not. Again, that is your opinion and view, but not Scripture.
 
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Bob S

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Like it or not, Christians do observe a good 80%+ of the Torah. Dont lie, steal, kill, commit adultery, worship other Gods, etc, are ALL commands from Torah. There was no such thing as the New Testament back then, so all they had was the Torah, so every commands you see them teaching and repeating is from the Old Testament. The main difference between OC and NC is that the OC had the blood of animals cover your sin and the NC had the blood of the Messiah cover your sin.
You have to be pulling you percentage out of thin air. Sure some laws concerning morality overlap. That doesn't prove we are under Torah and what about jots and tittles. Believe Jesus has not fulfilled all of Torah then ALL of Torah is still binding. Build the Temple so that you can really be kosher. Torah doesn't have pardons for excuses.

Why and how can God write his Laws on our hearts in the New Covenant if they are abolished?
Because the laws written on our hearts is not Torah. Jesus fulfilled Torah and gave us His commands.

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

This verse makes it pretty clear that God does nothing that he doesn't reveal through his prophets first. There are the Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus and other examples like sending a messenger(John the baptist), the telling of the future in Daniel and some of the other Prophets that agree with Revelations, and more.
Exactly, ever hear of John the Baptist. He told the Pharisees and Sadducees that the one coming could raise the seed of Abraham from stones. The Jews thought their Messiah would come just for them. They had it all figured out so they thought. That was the first change then all the remainder of changes you do not believe came. The Jews would not accept the new covenant as being the replacement for the expired one. Do you?

So where in any of the prophets did God reveal to them that the 10 commandments were temporary or that he was going to abolish all of his commands in the future???
Jesus is a Prophet and He commissioned Paul to write in 2Cor 3:7-11 that the 10 commandments were temporary. Gal 3:19 tells us Torah was until Jesus. That completely blows your theory out of the water doesn't it. You cannot believe Paul's writings and still hold on to your beliefs. If a prophet didn't reveal it first then what Paul wrote cannot be verified. Well Jesus the prophet revealed it Himself, He fulfilled the law on the Cross and that solves the problem of not being able to believe Paul. Paul is the thorn in the Messianic belief system.

So, are you trying to tell us that Paul was a fake and that we cannot believe what he so plainly wrote?
 
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These verses do not say anything about eating "unclean" animals, so your argument here is your opinion, not Scripture. You make an assumption here that is not supported by Scripture. Let's look at these verses:

1 Peter 13-16
13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Where do you see anything about adhering to the Law of Moses? Your opinion of "holy" is not what the Scriptures say here.



No it is not. Again, that is your opinion and view, but not Scripture.
Hi FreeAtLast, Welcome to the forum. I am not trying to be nosey, well maybe just a might bit. I would like to know why you write like a new covenant Christian and claim to be Messianic? What are you free from? I am free from SDAism and have no affiliation except for the universal church of believers in Jesus as Savior. I have millions and millions of brothers and sisters that claim the promises Jesus teaches.

I am thrilled that you have shared your beliefs and I totally agree with your posts.
 
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FreeAtLast

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Hi FreeAtLast, Welcome to the forum. I am not trying to be nosey, well maybe just a might bit. I would like to know why you write like a new covenant Christian and claim to be Messianic? What are you free from? I am free from SDAism and have no affiliation except for the universal church of believers in Jesus as Savior. I have millions and millions of brothers and sisters that claim the promises Jesus teaches.

I am thrilled that you have shared your beliefs and I totally agree with your posts.

Shalom Bob!

I don't mind answering at all! It is interesting to see where the posters are affiliated. For example, I am very curious about the OP because he/she state they are "Messianic" yet they write like an SDA or one of the offshoot groups of true Messianic Judaism which gives us a bad rap.

As for me, I am Jewish by birth and upbringing and I am a born again Believer in Yeshua the Mashiach (thus the moniker of "Messianic" because that is what true Messianic Judaism is). I believe Yeshua to be the Second Person in the Tri-Unity of G-d, fully G-d and fully man and SO GRATEFUL what He did for us! He accomplished the will of the Father, completed the requirements of the Law, gave us the New Covenant to save us, free us and teach us how to be more like Him, filled us with the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit) and has called us (Jew and Gentile) to be His children and live with Him eternally one day.

I believe the Scriptures state explicitly that the Law of Moses was completed by Yeshua, the Law is null and void in the Believer's life, and I am deeply concerned about those that preach "Torah Observance" as a requirement for Believers as it is a false doctrine that have led many astray from true salvation in Yeshua. I interact with many who espouse this false doctrine in the Facebook group I run, "Messianic Believers in Yeshua".

I am a non-denom Believer. I attend a church and a Messianic synagogue. :)

Feel free to ask me any questions about what I believe.

As for my screen name, I am an older woman (a Bubbe akak grandmother) a born again Believer for more than 35 years and in my personal life, this year, I have been freed from a bondage for which I am thankful to G-d.

I was on this board in 2008 under a different screen name and just got an invitation to return. So I did.

I appreciate YOUR posts and where you come from because you know exactly the erroneous doctrine being put forth. Thank you for your bold, accurate stand!
 
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Shalom Bob!

I don't mind answering at all! It is interesting to see where the posters are affiliated. For example, I am very curious about the OP because he/she state they are "Messianic" yet they write like an SDA or one of the offshoot groups of true Messianic Judaism which gives us a bad rap.

As for me, I am Jewish by birth and upbringing and I am a born again Believer in Yeshua the Mashiach (thus the moniker of "Messianic" because that is what true Messianic Judaism is). I believe Yeshua to be the Second Person in the Tri-Unity of G-d, fully G-d and fully man and SO GRATEFUL what He did for us! He accomplished the will of the Father, completed the requirements of the Law, gave us the New Covenant to save us, free us and teach us how to be more like Him, filled us with the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit) and has called us (Jew and Gentile) to be His children and live with Him eternally one day.

I believe the Scriptures state explicitly that the Law of Moses was completed by Yeshua, the Law is null and void in the Believer's life, and I am deeply concerned about those that preach "Torah Observance" as a requirement for Believers as it is a false doctrine that have led many astray from true salvation in Yeshua. I interact with many who espouse this false doctrine in the Facebook group I run, "Messianic Believers in Yeshua".

I am a non-denom Believer. I attend a church and a Messianic synagogue. :)

Feel free to ask me any questions about what I believe.

As for my screen name, I am an older woman (a Bubbe akak grandmother) a born again Believer for more than 35 years and in my personal life, this year, I have been freed from a bondage for which I am thankful to G-d.

I was on this board in 2008 under a different screen name and just got an invitation to return. So I did.

I appreciate YOUR posts and where you come from because you know exactly the erroneous doctrine being put forth. Thank you for your bold, accurate stand!
Bless your heart, you made my day. Thank you so much for sharing. Please stay with us. Your posts beautifully reflect what Jesus came to do for all mankind. Praise the Lordbondage has been removed from your life. God is great.

I too have roots in Judaism. My father was Jewish by birth, but did not practice that faith. Some my family converted to Christianity. My Jewish relatives accepted my mother, brother and me. I grew up a Christian and in my early 20s my wife and I became SDA, long story. Years later when I had the time to really study doctrines I started seeing cracks in the foundation of Adventism. The more I studied the bigger the cracks became. I know it was the Holy Spirit that has led me to become a new covenant Christian. God has been so good to my family and me. It is so thrilling to see all of us grow in Grace. I kinda kid that I have gone through the fire for a good part of my 82 years and have come out of bondage well tempered. I am vigorous to keep spreading the good news of salvation in Jesus.


Keep lookin up, Jesus IS coming again. Bob

I could not fathom going back under any part of the rituals of Torah when Jesus has fulfilled the requirements and set Jews free from all the rituals found in Israel's law. He is the Lamb slain for all mankind. He is the author of the new way.
 
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Like it or not, Christians do observe a good 80%+ of the Torah. Dont lie, steal, kill, commit adultery, worship other Gods, etc, are ALL commands from Torah. There was no such thing as the New Testament back then, so all they had was the Torah, so every commands you see them teaching and repeating is from the Old Testament. The main difference between OC and NC is that the OC had the blood of animals cover your sin and the NC had the blood of the Messiah cover your sin.
Would you explain how a Christian in compliance with John 13:34 is doing anything you mention above? What about this from Luke 6:31:And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. You must be saying being in compliance with either of those verses is really obeying the law when is isn't.
Why and how can God write his Laws on our hearts in the New Covenant if they are abolished?
What laws are you talking about? Jeremiah says law. Jeremiah doesn't say laws.
Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

This verse makes it pretty clear that God does nothing that he doesn't reveal through his prophets first. There are the Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus and other examples like sending a messenger(John the baptist), the telling of the future in Daniel and some of the other Prophets that agree with Revelations, and more.
God revealed the dissolvement of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai and its replacement.
So where in any of the prophets did God reveal to them that the 10 commandments were temporary or that he was going to abolish all of his commands in the future???
Jeremiah 31:31-33.
 
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Please read my posts more carefully. I pointed out that Yeshua said that he fulfilled (completed) the Law of Moses, and He said He did not come to abolish it. So, please re-word your question to reflect the facts.

As to why and how G-d can write the laws on our hearts in the New Covenant with the Law of Moses being null and void in the life of the born again Believer...

Please read Jeremiah 31:31-34 for the answer straight from G-d.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the L-rd, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the L-rd. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the L-rd: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the L-rd,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the L-rd. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

You see, what is written on our hearts is NOT the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses), but NEW Covenant, the commands of Yeshua. That is because Yeshua fulfilled the Law of Moses rendering it null and void.




Again, read the words of the prophet Jeremiah that was posted which states the NEW Covenant is not the Old one. It was the prophecy fulfilled by Yeshua in Luke 22:20
20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Very clear. I hope that helps you understand.
Jesus has NO new commands. He said he came to do the will of the father, so he was upholding his commands. All Jesus did was expand the meanings of the existing commands on the sermon and the mount.

Deuteronomy 4:2
2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Jesus expanded on many of the commands and that they start from your heart whether it was murder can start from hate or adultery can start from lust. He summed up the commands into 2, but a sum doesnt not equal a cancellation of it.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

These 2 commands came from:
Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 6:5
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.


So back to Deut 4:2, Jesus could not add any New Commands to the word of God, so the excuses used on here by some that the only thing they have to follow is the one NEW command in John 13:34-35, and disregard everything else is FALSE.


Jesus was not giving his disciples a new command, he was just giving them a lesson on a original command for the first time and showing them the example on how he lived it out for them.


I agree we are under a New Covenant where the Messiah is the high priest at the right hand of the father. Outside of the sacrificial system that changed, everything else still stands if it still applies to us.

Say the laws of the Torah no longer apply is like someone saying since you passed your driving test, you fulfilled the traffic laws, so now none of them apply. Go 80mph in a 25 and tell the cop, Im not under the traffic law, im under the law of Love and see how that works.
 
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