Should Christians Walk in the God's Ways?

[listed]

Can you please acknowledge that "to perform or execute a matter of duty" and "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should" are real definitions that are listed as possibilities that the term can mean and that I've given reasons for why I think Yeshua was using the term in accordance with those definitions and why I think he wasn't using the other definitions? I hope that you can dispense with the rhetoric of "ignoring the real definitions and creating and cherry picking ones that fit your opinion" so that we can have a fruitful discussion about how to word should be correctly interpreted. I've even given reasons for why the other definitions fit with filling up our knowledge of the Law, which is something Yeshua did throughout Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly obey it, so I'm not ignoring definitions, and I would appreciate it if you would at least consider the possibility that Yeshua was using the definition I listed.

Again, this is the way that the term is used in other verses and other Jewish writings. For example, you do not interpret "fulfilling the Law of Christ" in Galatians 6:2 or "fulfilling the Gospel" in Romans 15:18-19 in a way that is consistent with how you interpret "fulfilling the Law and the Prophets".



I am not disregarding what he said, but rather I interpret what he said differently than you do. The way to please God is to live by faith and living by faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's will. For instance, every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone submitting to God's will. Yeshua said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law, so you should not consider submitting to God's commands as adding something more apart from faith.

Where in the NT dose it say submit to the law for salvation?

 

[SAAN]

You have to be pulling you percentage out of thin air. Sure some laws concerning morality overlap. That doesn't prove we are under Torah and what about jots and tittles. Believe Jesus has not fulfilled all of Torah then ALL of Torah is still binding. Build the Temple so that you can really be kosher. Torah doesn't have pardons for excuses.

Because the laws written on our hearts is not Torah. Jesus fulfilled Torah and gave us His commands.

Amos 3:7

Exactly, ever hear of John the Baptist. He told the Pharisees and Sadducees that the one coming could raise the seed of Abraham from stones. The Jews thought their Messiah would come just for them. They had it all figured out so they thought. That was the first change then all the remainder of changes you do not believe came. The Jews would not accept the new covenant as being the replacement for the expired one. Do you?


Jesus is a Prophet and He commissioned Paul to write in 2Cor 3:7-11 that the 10 commandments were temporary. Gal 3:19 tells us Torah was until Jesus. That completely blows your theory out of the water doesn't it. You cannot believe Paul's writings and still hold on to your beliefs. If a prophet didn't reveal it first then what Paul wrote cannot be verified. Well Jesus the prophet revealed it Himself, He fulfilled the law on the Cross and that solves the problem of not being able to believe Paul. Paul is the thorn in the Messianic belief system.

So, are you trying to tell us that Paul was a fake and that we cannot believe what he so plainly wrote?

I dont need a temple because Jesus fulfilled the animal sacrifice system with his blood.

No one here has ever said we are under under the new covenant and you still to this day cant show one verse in the bible where Jesus said these will be the commands of the New Covenant. You never will because Jesus, Paul, an all the disciples taught from the Torah. Ive said numerous times and will repeat it again if it doesnt apply to you, you are not accountable to do it, just like back then. A woman didnt have to do commands that applied to a priest, king, farmer and a man didnt have to do commands that applied to woman only, kings, etc. the laws written on your heart ARE DIRECTLY FROM THE TORAH.

Paul has ZERO authority to change or abolish any commands, so since the bible always requires 2 or more witnesses to validate something, you need to show 1 more prophet or disciple in the NT who taught the 10C's were temporary. Its utter insanity that you are a Christian and believe the 10 Commandments were temporary. Go commit murder see who that turns out for you here and judgement day.

 

[SAAN]

Where in the NT dose it say submit to the law for salvation?

He is not saying that and has never said that. What he always states is when you are saved, you should be following the commands of God because you are saved, NOT to try to be saved.

 

[christianforumsuser]

Doing good is better....but why try to appear to follow the Law while being hateful and unloving
Then as a man appears loving as he says "I love you" but acts what's clearly hateful to God and man in his arrogance

 

[listed]

Do you believe that according to according to 1 John 3:4-6 that sin is defined as the transgression of the Law and we a required to refrain from practicing sin? Do you believe that according to 1 John 3:10, that those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God and that according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that all OT Scriptures are profitable for training in righteousness? Do you agree that practicing righteousness means that we are require to follow the instructions that God has given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness? Do you agree that God's righteousness does not change, so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness does not change, which means that anything that God has ever instructed for how to practice righteousness will always be a valid?

No. Sin is also violation of the law. Sin isn't only a violation of the law.

No again to your practicing the law. Simply doing right or practicing righteousness isn't necessarily keeping the law.

Torah observance is not about elevating us over what Yeshua accomplished but about what we ought to do because of what he accomplished and about follow his teachings and his example. In Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as doing things in accordance with the Law, which are not adding to our salvation, but it what our salvation from sin involves. It says that he gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so this training to obey the Law is part of what he accomplished.

Your chosen verses says nothing about the law.

 

[christianforumsuser]

But why follow idolatry and an evil master..
If people taught spiritual things, not giving the carnal flesh everything it desires in its wicked ways and deceit...
Oh but people complain so much about not getting their way
They'll want some money...some status...they love sin and lies in the world, say it's not a harlot

 

[listed]

He is not saying tat and has never said that. What he always states is when you are saved, you should be following the commands of God because you are saved, NOT to try to be saved.

What are those commands? Is this one of them: 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

What did Jesus say to do if we loved Him? Did Jesus say keep His commandments or follow Moses? Are we disciples of Moses or Jesus?

 

[christianforumsuser]

Don't follow a man
Be spiritually minded

If you reject mercy and sacrifice yet claim to adhere to the law pretty well...what are you but an imitation who does pretty well in boasting of flesh
What is your nature
And which sacrifice...

 

[listed]

I see no reason to think that if Adam and Eve were permitted to kill animals for clothing that they were not also permitted to kill them for food. There is much evidence of many of God's Laws being in place throughout Genesis, and we can see an example of this in the fact that Noah was instructed what to do with clean and unclean animals without being instructed how to differentiate between them, so it follows that he had been given prior instructions about not eating unclean animals. While on the Ark, Noah was temporarily restricted to eating the same food as the other animals for obvious reason (Genesis 6:21), so so God giving him permission to eat animals again was lifting the prohibition, not granting him anything new. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are instructed to do what is holy for God is holy, so refraining from eating unclean animals is about walking in God's ways in accordance with His eternal holiness. It is also fairly straightforward that having a holy conduct involves observing God's holy days. The way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law (Romans 2:26), which is the same way to recognize that a Jew has a circumcised heart (Deuteronomy 30:6). God only has one plan of redemption.



According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, so following God's instructions by grace through faith for how to do that is not adding to our salvation, but is part of what our salvation from sin is. Furthermore, it says that Christ gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so again being purified as someone of his own possession who is zealous for following God's instructions for how to do good works is not about adding to what he accomplished or saying that he was not able to accomplish what he came to do, but it is part of what he accomplished. When Jesus said that it was finished, he was not referring to the Law, but to his redemptive work and when Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, he said nothing to indicate that he was speaking in regard to his death, but rather "until heaven and earth pass" indicates that he was speaking about end times. So what Jesus was referring to was certainly finished, but not everything has been accomplished yet because there is still the 2nd coming and everything Revelation says comes with that.

Having a holy conduct has nothing to do with observing the holy days given to Israel as a sign.

 

[christianforumsuser]

Pharisees held the letter of the law and tradition and their thoughts higher than God Himself who came in flesh

The Word Logos stood right there and they were carnally minded in the world
They thought they were good and holy by nature, but were called a brood of vipers

 

[listed]

No, because you go past the actual definitions to the very bottom, to the least accurate one simply because it agrees with your opinion. Look at the other definitions, they are in direct opposition to your view, yet you disregard them completely and choose one that is not consistent with other Scriptures, and not accurate.

I have also given reasons why your choice is not what I believe the Scriptures state and taking the whole of Scripture into consideration, the term you are using and applying opposes other Scripture, as I explained.



What other verses and what "Jewish writings" are you referring to please. Source proof please.
Are you Jewish?

I posted the Greek word, its definition and application and it does not fit with your opinion, in fact, it is in opposition to it.




Please read the rest of what I wrote where I explain what that means. Yes, Yeshua made the Law of Moses null and void and yes, Yeshua said He did not abolish it. Please re-read my post.



I already addressed that and showed you where Yeshua was speaking of the New Covenant commands, not the Old. And yet you come back with the same argument as if I never responded. As I said, you keep posting the same things over and over and over and don't actually listen to what anyone says.



Please actually read what I wrote. Please. I did not say "interact" I said I've seen. One can read the forums without posting and interacting.

I think he doesn't much like Christians.

 

[Bob S]

I agree we are under a New Covenant where the Messiah is the high priest at the right hand of the father. Outside of the sacrificial system that changed, everything else still stands if it still applies to us.

Just where do I find the modifier "if"? Not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Some laws may not directly involve your immediate observance, but You are required to support the laws that do not directly apply to the layman. Paul writes that the law has been fulfilled. You write that it isn't. Knowing what Paul wrote about the law I choose to agree with Paul. Gal 3:19, 2Cor3:7-11 Rom 7. I have been released from the law and bound to Christ.

 

[SAAN]

Just where do I find the modifier "if"? Not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Some laws may not directly involve your immediate observance, but You are required to support the laws that do not directly apply to the layman. Paul writes that the law has been fulfilled. You write that it isn't. Knowing what Paul wrote about the law I choose to agree with Paul. Gal 3:19, 2Cor3:7-11 Rom 7. I have been released from the law and bound to Christ.

FULFILL does not mean ABOLISH.

ful·fill
fo͝olˈfil/
verb
verb: fulfil; 3rd person present: fulfils; past tense: fulfilled; past participle: fulfilled; gerund or present participle: fulfilling; verb: fulfill; 3rd person present: fulfills

1. 1.
   bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
   "he wouldn't be able to fulfill his ambition to visit Naples"
   synonyms: achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in, bring to completion, bring to fruition, satisfy
   "he fulfilled his ambition to travel the world"
   • gain happiness or satisfaction by fully developing one's abilities or character.
   • archaic
     complete (a period of time or piece of work).
2. 2.
   carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected.
   "some officials were dismissed because they could not fulfill their duties"
   synonyms: carry out, perform, accomplish, execute, do, discharge, conduct; More
   
   • satisfy or meet (a requirement or condition).
     "goods must fulfill three basic conditions"
     synonyms: meet, satisfy, comply with, conform to, fill, answer
     "they fulfilled the criteria"

Origin


You choose #1 and I choose #2, as #2 is in much more context of the scriptures than #1.

Matthew 5:17
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

IT DOES NOT SAY

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to abolish them.

Jesus would have sounded like a fool to say, im not here to abolish the law, but actually abolish them. Like it or not, it they are not needed, we do have the free license to sin away, because there are no laws now to keep, so you cant be wrong on sexual immorality, because the laws about that were fulfilled and no longer needed, so stealing, lies, coveting, worshiping other Gods are now all okay too, because Jesus fulfilled those requirements. SMH

 

[FreeAtLast]

Jesus has NO new commands.

Really? Are you reading the New Covenant? So, since Yeshua said He gave us new commands Himself and He gave us a completely New Covenant, He was lying?

Read HIS own words...

Here are some new commandments of Yeshua for your reading pleasure:
** Commandment to believe in Yeshua

John 3:16 "For G-d so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

1 John 3:21-24 "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before G-d and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

** Commandment to love one another

John 13:34-35 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

a. John 14:15-18 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you."

b. John 14:21 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

c. John 15:9-11 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love."

d. John 15:14-15 "You are my friends if you do what I command."

What does Yeshua command?

e. John 15:12-13 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

f. John 15:17 "This is my command: Love each other."


**Commandment to preach the gospel

Matt 28:18-20 "Then Yeshua came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Acts 10:42 "He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom G-d appointed as judge of the living and the dead."

 

[FreeAtLast]

Bless your heart, you made my day. Thank you so much for sharing. Please stay with us. Your posts beautifully reflect what Jesus came to do for all mankind. Praise the Lordbondage has been removed from your life. God is great.

Amen Brother G-d is great and thank you for your reply.

I too have roots in Judaism. My father was Jewish by birth, but did not practice that faith. Some my family converted to Christianity. My Jewish relatives accepted my mother, brother and me. I grew up a Christian and in my early 20s my wife and I became SDA, long story. Years later when I had the time to really study doctrines I started seeing cracks in the foundation of Adventism. The more I studied the bigger the cracks became. I know it was the Holy Spirit that has led me to become a new covenant Christian. God has been so good to my family and me. It is so thrilling to see all of us grow in Grace. I kinda kid that I have gone through the fire for a good part of my 82 years and have come out of bondage well tempered. I am vigorous to keep spreading the good news of salvation in Jesus.

WOW!! That knocks my socks off! How wonderful. How blessed you are and how blessed we are to have have your wisdom. Keep on posting and standing strong for the truth! (btw, I am not far behind you in age! We need to help teach the young ones how to correctly understand G-d's Word.)

I look forward to reading more of your wisdom as you share Yeshua's truth!

 

[FreeAtLast]

FULFILL does not mean ABOLISH.

This is nonsensical. Please read the posts more carefully as you are attributing words and arguments that the other poster never wrote.

Bob S did not say the Law of Moses was abolished, so your whole argument rabbit trail is moot.

Please read what Bob DID say and respond instead of arguing what he didn't say

 

[FreeAtLast]

Jesus would have sounded like a fool to say, im not here to abolish the law, but actually abolish them. Like it or not, it they are not needed, we do have the free license to sin away, because there are no laws now to keep, so you cant be wrong on sexual immorality, because the laws about that were fulfilled and no longer needed, so stealing, lies, coveting, worshiping other Gods are now all okay too, because Jesus fulfilled those requirements. SMH

Oh my, I see this tired old fallacy argument ad nauseam. It's not even worth refuting because it is so ridiculous, but I want to help you to understand.

1) Again, Yeshua said that He came to FULFILL the Law of Moses, not abolish it. You posted such a fine argument for this, so you surely must agree.

2) All over the New Covenant, it is made clear that the Law of Moses is a) FULFILLED and b) is an important learning tool for us, born again Believers in Yeshua. To abolish the Law of Moses means to completely ignore and disregard it. However, G-d wanted us to learn from it because His intricate plan was to enact the Law of Moses as a covenant between Himself and Israel, and show us what sin is, that sin is so important it takes blood to atone for it, show us that WE are sinners and show us that the Law cannot save us from our sin, we need the Messiah, Yeshua.

3) However, it is also clear in the Scriptures that since Yeshua FULFILLED the Law of Moses (completed it, filled it up to completion so there are no more open requirements for born again Believers) the Law of Moses does not apply to us IF we are truly in Yeshua.

4) Your fallacy refuted: Read the NEW Covenant commands of Yeshua - He addresses your fallacious argument by addressing each one of these sins and commands us not to sin. So you saying what you did indicates that you do not know and understand the New Covenant, or you don't believe it. In which case you would not be a Christian.

 

[SAAN]

Really? Are you reading the New Covenant? So, since Yeshua said He gave us new commands Himself and He gave us a completely New Covenant, He was lying?

Read HIS own words...

Here are some new commandments of Yeshua for your reading pleasure:
** Commandment to believe in Yeshua

John 3:16 "For G-d so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

1 John 3:21-24 "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before G-d and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

** Commandment to love one another

John 13:34-35 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

a. John 14:15-18 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you."

b. John 14:21 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

c. John 15:9-11 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love."

d. John 15:14-15 "You are my friends if you do what I command."

What does Yeshua command?

e. John 15:12-13 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

f. John 15:17 "This is my command: Love each other."


**Commandment to preach the gospel

Matt 28:18-20 "Then Yeshua came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Acts 10:42 "He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom G-d appointed as judge of the living and the dead."

Yes we are to believe in the messiah and that he died on the cross for our sins, but after that we still have a life to live, and if you love Jesus you will keep the commandments. Jesus said to Love God and one another are the commandment SUMMED up, not canceled out. Gods command shows you how to Love him and others.

And correct, we should be out there telling others about Jesus and why he died for our sins, but there is more to the Christian walk than believing in Jesus, loving others and telling others about Jesus. there is still an obedience required to God. Plenty of Christians and even not Christian believe in Jesus, but are the most sexually immoral people out there, the biggest drunkards, the most foul language people, and biggest liars too, but they all believe in Jesus, so in order for them to fulfill the command to Love one another, they need to keep the commands like refrain from sexual immorality, adultery, bearing false witness coveting etc.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Yes we are to believe in the messiah and that he died on the cross for our sins, but after that we still have a life to live, and if you love Jesus you will keep the commandments. Jesus said to Love God and one another are the commandment SUMMED up, not canceled out. Gods command shows you how to Love him and others.

According to the Scriptures, we are to follow Yeshua's commandments since the Old Covenant Law of Moses has been made null and void in the Believer's life. These are the commandments we are to keep.

And correct, we should be out there telling others about Jesus and why he died for our sins, but there is more to the Christian walk than believing in Jesus, loving others and telling others about Jesus. there is still an obedience required to God. Plenty of Christians and even not Christian believe in Jesus, but are the most sexually immoral people out there, the biggest drunkards, the most foul language people, and biggest liars too, but they all believe in Jesus, so in order for them to fulfill the command to Love one another, they need to keep the commands like refrain from sexual immorality, adultery, bearing false witness coveting etc.

You seem to be confused here. In response to you saying Yeshua gave us no NEW commands, I posted some of those very NEW commands that He gave. There are more. I posted to show you that you were wrong when you said Yeshua did not give us new commands.

These are what we are to be following if we love Him. He tells us how to walk, how to be obedience, that is by following all of HIS commands of the New Covenant. These commands include the specific sins you reference. I encourage you to read the New Covenant and you will see that the New Covenant commands cover all these sins and more.

As far as what other people do, ALL have sinned, even you, and we ALL need Yeshua's forgiveness by grace. The Law of Moses cannot do that, only Yeshua can.

 

[christianforumsuser]

Was he referencing this
Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2 - New King James Version
Verse 7
7 Brethren,a]">[a] I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.b]">[b]