Should a Christian be friends with an occultist?

[Solomons Porch]

Christ has commissioned us to spread the good news of the gospel.

If you choose not to obey Christ, that's your thing. But do not bash us who are obedient to Christ. I think Lutherans are different than I thought. Have to study up on your beliefs.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christ has commissioned us to spread the good news of the gospel.

If you choose not to obey Christ, that's your thing. But do not bash us who are obedient to Christ. I think Lutherans are different than I thought. Have to study up on your beliefs.

Huh, that's a horrible leap of logic. I just believe in honest, nonviolent communication, as much as possible, including fairly representing the religions and worldviews of our neighbors. Wiccans do not think or operate like Christians, merely because they also are a religion. They don't put a feather in their cap when they've won a convert. If you wish to see warfare where there is none, that is your choice, but remember the words of St. Paul, "if it is possible, live in peace with all men". Our non-Christian neighbors are as deserving of our kindness and consideration, the stuff of friendship, as anybody else.

 

[FireDragon76]

Lutherans do not practice evangelism the same way as other Christians. Not all are called to preach or pastor. Those who do not have that gift are not obligated to do so. Our response to the Gospel is to live out truth, justice, and grace in our ordinary life situations we find ourselves in, called our vocations in Lutheranism (which doesn't exactly mean career as it does now days). Being people of integrity is a far better wittness to the Good News of Jesus Christ than winning a proselyte ever could be.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Lets just remember we don't live in a fairy tale world where everything is butterflies and fluffy clouds and lavender scented air

We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness
But if u wanna think fluffy......by all means
Sounds very peaceful

 

[JoeP222w]

Depends on what level of friendship you are defining.

If you mean just talking with them about the weather or the latest ball game, that may not be a problem.

If you are talking with them and affirming that their worldview (of the occult) is just a valid as yours (as a Christian) that is a huge problem and if you are telling them that, I wonder about your own Christian walk and connection with God's truth. That is not to say that you need to be nasty to them, but a Christian cannot claim to know the truth of God and say that all other worldviews are valid paths to God. That is a complete contradiction.

 

[FireDragon76]

If you are talking with them and affirming that their worldview (of the occult) is just a valid as yours (as a Christian) that is a huge problem and if you are telling them that, I wonder about your own Christian walk and connection with God's truth.

Believe it or not, mature adults can have different religious beliefs without everything being down to religion. And they can be friends while maintaining the integrity of their beliefs.

That is not to say that you need to be nasty to them, but a Christian cannot claim to know the truth of God and say that all other worldviews are valid paths to God. That is a complete contradiction.

Well, that's sort of OK, because as a Lutheran, I do not believe my faith is a path to God. Never by my own strength or will would I manage to walk a path to God. Rather, God has sought me out and found me. Being as that I am a fool stumbling in darkness, I am no better than the pagan in every way- it was not for my own merits that God saved me. By being a friend to those who also stumble in darkness, I am just living out my response to that grace that God has shown me.

I am not afraid of satanic influence on me. The faithful life requires boldness, like Daniel in the lion's den. True faith protects us, we are grasped securely by the Father through the Son, and we cannot be snatched away. The holy angels and prayers of the saints, both here on earth and heaven, protect us. But maybe this requires a certain level of Christian maturity that not everyone has.

 

[JoeP222w]

Believe it or not, mature adults can have different religious beliefs without everything being down to religion. And they can be friends while maintaining the integrity of their beliefs.

I never said they could not. But if you affirm their religious worldview is valid and true, you are denying the Christian faith. [John 14:6, Acts 4:11-12]

I do not believe my faith is a path to God.

Is faith something you create, or is it a gift from God? If faith is a gift from God (I believe it is), He gets all the credit and all the glory of faith, so it is the path to God. You seem to imply that faith is something you create in and of yourself, perhaps I am not understanding you.

True faith protects us, we are grasped securely by the Father through the Son, and we cannot be snatched away.

Only if you understand that faith is only from God [Monergism], and not something you work alongside with God [Synergism].

The holy angels and prayers of the saints, both here on earth and heaven, protect us.

I find no Biblical support of this. I know of nowhere in the Bible that says that angels pray for us. Please show me where I am wrong.

I find no Biblical support that saints in Heaven pray for us either. This is a teaching of Rome, not Protestantism.

 

[FireDragon76]

Is faith something you create, or is it a gift from God? If faith is a gift from God (I believe it is), He gets all the credit and all the glory of faith, so it is the path to God.

Lutheranism is different from Calvinism. Faith is a gift from God. It is not a "path" we must follow. It's finished. There is no difference between the believer and the unbeliever, except the believer has received the benefits of salvation, the peace and comfort of the Gospel. My works are no holier in God's eyes, my life is no holier in God's eyes. God's love for all people is real.

I find no Biblical support of this. I know of nowhere in the Bible that says that angels pray for us. Please show me where I am wrong.

I find no Biblical support that saints in Heaven pray for us either. This is a teaching of Rome, not Protestantism.

Actually, Lutherans believe it also, it is part of our confessions. We just don't believe it is necessary to seek their intercession, as they already pray for the Church. The Bible points us to Christ alone as our Savior, but that doesn't mean that angels and saints do not pray for us. At the end of our service at the benediction, our pastor prays that the holy angels will accompany us and the hand of God will be upon us.

Lutherans are too Catholic to be Protestant, and too evangelical to be Roman. That is why we call ourselves Evangelical Catholics.

My point is, there is no need for me to be fearful of contamination or influence by unbelievers. So I don't see the point of forbidding friendship with unbelievers, unless it is personal animus, which is a subchristian ethic. Frankly, you do not have the authority to bind consciences on this matter.

 

[Goodbook]

I think its quite established that christians are born again and they don't say whether they are 'of Paul' or 'of Apollos' or any man-made denoms.

If you constantly insisting on Lutheranism that's just like those who talk about Calvinism. That's of man, not God.

Friendship is laying down your life for someone like Jesus does. An occultist is NOT going to lay down their life for you, in fact, they are going to be scheming in the dark how they can most take advantage of you. Don't be gullible. They are not true friends. if your friendship is on a superficial level well sure you can be friends with every Tom Dick or Harry that crosses your path. But that's not what Jesus did. Jesus actually had very few friends.

 

[Solomons Porch]

And might i just add to Goodbook that there is nothing wrong with shaking the dust off ur feet. If ur message isnt welcomed, shake it off. Go about the Fathers business, but always be about HIS business.

 

[ver 2-10]

I think its quite established that christians are born again and they don't say whether they are 'of Paul' or 'of Apollos' or any man-made denoms.

If you constantly insisting on Lutheranism that's just like those who talk about Calvinism. That's of man, not God.

Friendship is laying down your life for someone like Jesus does. An occultist is NOT going to lay down their life for you, in fact, they are going to be scheming in the dark how they can most take advantage of you. Don't be gullible. They are not true friends. if your friendship is on a superficial level well sure you can be friends with every Tom Dick or Harry that crosses your path. But that's not what Jesus did. Jesus actually had very few friends.

You preach hate and suspicion when you should preach love and forgiveness.

We should only limit our love and forgiveness to those who are irredeemable, utterly psychotic serial killers. But those who wage war against us we should first try to reason with, make them see reason.

In the 3rd Crusade, Saladin followed the words of Jesus and loved the crusaders, showed mercy and forgiveness. Reasoned where others would kill and torture. He acted civil and in the end he solved the crusade peacefully. Defused the tense situation.

Love conquers all.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think its quite established that christians are born again and they don't say whether they are 'of Paul' or 'of Apollos' or any man-made denoms.

Just because we bemoan being of Paul or Apollos doesn't change the reality that we are of Paul or Apollos. I believe in being forthright about my confessional identity, perhaps you do not?

Friendship is laying down your life for someone like Jesus does. An occultist is NOT going to lay down their life for you, in fact, they are going to be scheming in the dark

That's just bigotry. And crazy talk. Pagan peoples can have virtues like everybody else. It is part of God's common grace (Reformed) or his left hand rule over creation (Lutheran). Besides, I know of alot of Christian that would probably never lay down their life for anybody. You must have a really demanding view of friendship, if that's the bar you set.

But that's not what Jesus did. Jesus actually had very few friends.

Jesus was friends with people that religious people never were friends with. Tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners. And I think he would be friends with New Agers and Tarot card readers today. He might not approve of their behavior, but that is far different from not being somebody's friend.

 

[Martyr's Crown]

You preach hate and suspicion when you should preach love and forgiveness.

We should only limit our love and forgiveness to those who are irredeemable, utterly psychotic serial killers. But those who wage war against us we should first try to reason with, make them see reason.

In the 3rd Crusade, Saladin followed the words of Jesus and loved the crusaders, showed mercy and forgiveness. Reasoned where others would kill and torture. He acted civil and in the end he solved the crusade peacefully. Defused the tense situation.

Love conquers all.

Concerning this part where I have highlighted it in coloured black when I googled for what Saladin did then it is written there that he was forced making a treaty with the crusaders after being discovered when trying to attack them at dawn once and then they also still tried to fight but since his army were too light armoured they lost, it didn't seem as it was all done 'cause of him following the words of Jesus as well as loving the crusaders.

Though I feel as you might have watched the movie Kingdom of Heaven from 2005? If this is what you take examples from I thought that there they really try making the muslims seem as the good guys and not the crusaders, even though the crusaders were supposed to win back the holy land from the reign of the muslims.

 

[ver 2-10]

Though I feel as you might have watched the movie Kingdom of Heaven from 2005? If this is what you take examples from I thought that there they really try making the muslims seem as the good guys and not the crusaders, even though the crusaders were supposed to win back the holy land from the reign of the muslims.

I don't rely on Hollywood fairytales. But historical books.

Saladin admired Richard the Lionhearted, once Richard attacked a city with mere 200 men, but lost his horse, Saladin ordered a horse to be given to Richard, this was just 1 amongst many gestures of good will that Saladin showed, in the end the muslims didn't care for Saladin since he was too kind to the crusaders who had killed and plundered the lands, but still Saladin won with peace.

You should read up on Saladin.

 

[sparkle123]

Wow, people are really arguing. I asked this question because I was uncertain. Temptation and spiritual struggle are a part of life. Occultism is a temptation for some, for others it's the subject of jokes or bad movies, but there it is.. Not to go into too much detail, but I feel like I have to-- I was involved in some of this before I felt the call of Christ a couple years ago and came out of it. TBH, my life was turned upside down as I never expected or wanted to become a Christian. I lost friends and a community. Many were not that excited about my conversion, having settled on the idea that Christianity is a source of social ill or stupid etc-- as you can imagine the phone slowly stopped ringing. (Including a Wiccan friend who signed my wedding certificate as a witness) Anyway I compare my situation to someone who had a problem with alcohol not wanting to get too friendly with a heavy drinker. I just don't feel up to it, and to be honest, it really annoys me to hear this friend talk about their spiritual life, the eastern stuff, etc. I can feel myself slipping right back into it, just knowing the philosophies and ideas, etc. It's a language I want to forget right now. So forgive my immaturity and selfishness... its a confusing issue. I'm at a low point right now socially and feel it better to focus on developing friendships that can encourage me in my faith. But maybe I shouldn't dismiss others? I don't know, it's not a settled thing obviously..

 

[Solomons Porch]

Im sorry u feel this way Sparkle and please don't give up. I was just reading some of the previous stuff posted here and was very much not a happy camper and Im putting it nicely at the rudeness. It's like they totally forgot that u asked a question and instead want to argue amoungst themselves. And for that I say Im sorry please keep pressing into Jesus HE LOVES YOU !!!!!

 

[FireDragon76]

I can feel myself slipping right back into it, just knowing the philosophies and ideas, etc. It's a language I want to forget right now. So forgive my immaturity and selfishness... its a confusing issue. I'm at a low point right now socially and feel it better to focus on developing friendships that can encourage me in my faith. But maybe I shouldn't dismiss others? I don't know, it's not a settled thing obviously..

I understand what you are saying. The place you are in at the journey, you are taking care of yourself. Just make sure you aren't intentionally burning bridges with people through a bad Christian witness. It's easy for pride and smugness to go to your head, even subconsciously. Years ago I had that problem when I was a catechumen in your church. Its easy to become like a "Caged Calvinist" and just decide everybody else is just blind and doesn't see what you see.

My brother and dad are not into the occult but honestly it's difficult for me to be around them. They are both irreligious and critical of religion, to the point sometimes conversations can be ackward because we have such different values. I recently was formally received into the local Lutheran parish I had been going to for a few years off and on, and my dad didn't even show up. It was a major life transition for me (I'd had some real problems in the past with spiritual abuse in Orthodoxy, sadly, and never formally was chrismated/received, almost lost my faith altogether through that) and he wasn't clued in at all as something that maybe should be important (he thinks churches are like ice cream... and its fine if you don't like ice cream at all of course). So, you don't have to have occultic friends to face challenges in your spiritual life.

 

[Ginger Sunshyne]

I don't know about y'all, but I build relationships with them. Someday they will question my faith, and someday I will answer. Jesus hung out with sinners and tax collectors and adulterers ( King David and the woman at the well). So why should we be any different if we claim to be "Christ followers"?

 

[Martyr's Crown]

I don't rely on Hollywood fairytales. But historical books.

Saladin admired Richard the Lionhearted, once Richard attacked a city with mere 200 men, but lost his horse, Saladin ordered a horse to be given to Richard, this was just 1 amongst many gestures of good will that Saladin showed, in the end the muslims didn't care for Saladin since he was too kind to the crusaders who had killed and plundered the lands, but still Saladin won with peace.

You should read up on Saladin.

Perhaps I might someday. Thanks for the information, though.

Wow, people are really arguing. I asked this question because I was uncertain. Temptation and spiritual struggle are a part of life. Occultism is a temptation for some, for others it's the subject of jokes or bad movies, but there it is.. Not to go into too much detail, but I feel like I have to-- I was involved in some of this before I felt the call of Christ a couple years ago and came out of it. TBH, my life was turned upside down as I never expected or wanted to become a Christian. I lost friends and a community. Many were not that excited about my conversion, having settled on the idea that Christianity is a source of social ill or stupid etc-- as you can imagine the phone slowly stopped ringing. (Including a Wiccan friend who signed my wedding certificate as a witness) Anyway I compare my situation to someone who had a problem with alcohol not wanting to get too friendly with a heavy drinker. I just don't feel up to it, and to be honest, it really annoys me to hear this friend talk about their spiritual life, the eastern stuff, etc. I can feel myself slipping right back into it, just knowing the philosophies and ideas, etc. It's a language I want to forget right now. So forgive my immaturity and selfishness... its a confusing issue. I'm at a low point right now socially and feel it better to focus on developing friendships that can encourage me in my faith. But maybe I shouldn't dismiss others? I don't know, it's not a settled thing obviously..

In my case I wasn't arguing, just telling my opinion on a matter, though it went off topic.

But back to your main post topic in here;

If you are telling here about it being difficult for you handling such friendships, since you are mentioning this part:

I can feel myself slipping right back into it, just knowing the philosophies and ideas, etc. It's a language I want to forget right now. So forgive my immaturity and selfishness... its a confusing issue. I'm at a low point right now socially and feel it better to focus on developing friendships that can encourage me in my faith. But maybe I shouldn't dismiss others?

Anything that can hinder your faith's growth or make you become more insecure, then it is better for you to stay away from this. Maybe later when you feel stronger in your faith you might be used to reaching out to these type of people, as there is a great advantage that you have experience with this from your past as then you will have a better understanding of what most of them are thinking and going through. But it is also wise putting down boundaries for yourself in what you can handle at this time, as if you feel as you are slipping right back into this, then that's already a danger sign.

If you are meant to help people who are into the occultism, then God will make this clear for you later on when you are ready. Everything should happen in His Timing. You can also pray to Him and ask Him about this, and be open for what He puts into your heart. If you get an desire for helping people, or for doing something else.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

And Oijue boards are very popular too.

The 'it's only entertainment' comment says to me that you thinks you know more than God. What kind of a demonimation do you come from that is not obedient to God?

God tells us that His ways are not our ways, His ways are HIGHER than our ways. Obedience is always where the rubber hits the road. Some are. Some are not.

Have you not read Leviticus? Look for the word 'abomination' that's a good clue for you to find it.

If you disagree with me, there is no reason to be blatantly rude and condescending about it. You obviously weren't looking to have a meaningful discussion, but instead sought to belittle me because you disagree with my views. Learn how to treat other people respectfully.