Short study on Baptism not being a neccessity

[daveleau]

(Oh no, not again, right?)

There are 9 verses in the Bible that say we must be baptized to be Saved. Of these, 7 talk of baptism without qualifying the type, 2 talk of baptism with the Holy Spirit, and 1 (overlapping with one mentioning the HS) talks of baptism with water. The one that speaks of water is John 3:5. this one gives many the most trouble. But when even-handed exegesis is performed, this can be resolved and is not a contradiction in the Bible (for there are no contradictions in the Bible, if one does sufficient exegesis)

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

The Greek text lends to the idea that these are not two happenings, but one. The two nouns, water and Spirit, are led by one preposition, which in Greek grammar suggests that they are part of the same process. This alone is not enough to say that these are one, but it lends credence to the idea. That leads us to an Old Testament segment that unites these two happenings:

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

This segment of Scripture links the cleansing of water and the replacement of our spirit with the Holy Spirit as both being performed by God in one act.

While I do not think we should stop water baptism as Jesus set an example of Baptism when He went to John the Baptist, I do think this is more Scriptural proof that we are not required to be baptized in water. It is a work and works do not get us into Heaven. For instance, if someone is dying and accepts Christ on their deathbed, they are no less likely to be in Heaven than someone who devoted their lives to Christ and were baptized in water. (Their place in Heaven would be diminished, but they would gain entrance to God's Kingdom). This is seen also in Luke 23:43, where the thief is saved on the cross next to Jesus.

Luk 23:42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

As I said, we SHOULD be baptised if we have the oppoertunity because of the example that Jesus gave us when He went to John. But, it is not something that MUST be done to gain admittance to Heaven.
God bless you and keep you,
Dave

 

[christian-only]

This segment of Scripture links the cleansing of water and the replacement of our spirit with the Holy Spirit as both being performed by God in one act.

That which God does through men is done by God:

That which God does through men is done by God. And although it is done by God, it is done by Him while the recipient is in the water, or else he would not say "born of water and of the Spirit" and in Acts 22:16, "be baptized washing away thy sins" and 1 Peter 3:21 "corresponding to this [flood of Noah] baptism now saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not by washing dirt off your body but because it is the appeal to God for a clean conscience" which appeal is answered by God inside itself, as Acts 2:38 says "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (NRSV)

The thief on the cross not in the NT and surely baptized by John if not by one of the apostles:

Now, as for the thief on the cross: (1) He wasn't under the NT. Heb 9:16-17 the NT started with Jesus death and baptism is a NT command, not OT. (2) It would be ridiculous to think he had not been baptized at least by John if not by one of the apostles seeing that he understood that Jesus would establish the kingdom AFTER His death.

Baptism is NOT a work:

Now, baptism is NOT a work. Why do I say this? Simple: when person-A preaches to person-B, person-B has NOT done any work. When person-A picks up person-B and carries them across the room, person-B has NOT done any work. Now, when person-A baptizes person-B, person-B has NOT done any work. Work is that which I do - NOT that which someone else does to me.

Suggested reading: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=7878161&postcount=1

 

[daveleau]

Good points, but the thief on the cross died after Jesus died. The prophesy that no bone in Jesus' body would be broken was upheld. When Jesus died, a storm arose and a great earthquake shook the ground tearing the ceremonial garb in the temple that kept the people from God's holy place. The people left golgatha and the executioners broke the legs of the thieves to expedite their deaths. They did not break Jesus' legs, because He was already dead. Hence, the theives died after Jesus. They needed their legs to be broken, while Jesus did not.

Also, all things we do on earth are works. Preaching to another, sleeping, eating going to church, and whatever else are all works. These are things we should do and need to do, but do not have any bearing on salvation. Grace is the only thing that saves our souls from our sinful weak flesh. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete. His blood is all we need, but we should thirst for more and we should thirst to do His work. We should be baptised, but if it is not possible (deathbed for instance), we are not going to be damned.

Acts 22:16 does not specify water baptism. 1 Pet 3:21 and Acts 2:38 are verses I need to study more with a clear and open mind. In the meantime, look seriously with an open mind at what I have posted. Do your own research. Some of your previous research was flawed (the idea regarding Christ and the theif is the part I am mentioning, because it is the only part that is not an interpretive opinion. It is simply incorrect (with all due respect).)

 

[christian-only]

Good points, but the thief on the cross died after Jesus died.

Yes Christ did die first, BUT Jesus told the man that he would be with Him in paradise BEFORE He died. Therefore, he was saved while the OT was still in effect.

Also, all things we do on earth are works. Preaching to another, sleeping, eating going to church, and whatever else are all works. These are things we should do and need to do, but do not have any bearing on salvation.

So, preaching is not necessary to salvation? Why then does Paul say "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

It is obvious that preaching does have a bearing on my salvation. If another man does not preach to me, I will not be saved! Now, if another man's preaching (which is HIS work, not mine) is necessary to MY salvation, why cannot another man's baptizing me (HIS work, not mine) be necessary to MY salvation?

---

 

[TSIBHOD]

See my comments at http://www.christianforums.com/t157517&page=2.

First, baptism does not wash away sins. The scriptures are clear that the blood of Jesus does this (1 John 1:7 and Revelation 1:5 are some examples out of many).

Acts 16:31 says that if one believes in Jesus, he will be saved. The question then arises, why must we be baptized? It is not enough to say that we must be baptized to be obedient to God. Of course, obedience to God is necessary, but what we want to know is, why does God want us to be baptized? What does it accomplish?

We must be baptized to enter into Christ's body. I Corinthians 12:13 says that we were all baptized into one body by one Spirit. So baptism brings us into the body.

Romans 6 tells us a lot more about baptism. Verse 3 says that we are baptised into Jesus' death. Verse 4 says that we are buried with Him through that baptism. Verse 6 tells us why this is necessary: so that our old sinful nature can be abolished. Verse 5 tells us that if we share in His death, we will also share in His resurrection. Is this talking about the last resurrection? No, all will be resurrected then anyway. Is it talking about the resurrection of the just? No, because it is His blood, not His death, that cleanses us from sin. What then does His death do, that we must share in it?

"He who is dead is free from sin."

Baptism brings us into Christ's body and separates us from the world. Baptism saves us from the world, but not from hell. The blood abstains us from the stains of sin. Confess your sins repentantly and believe, and the blood takes effect. The death kills our sinful nature. It makes us no longer slaves to sin. We cannot be slaves to sin and be slaves to Christ, and we must be enslaved to Christ to be part of His body. The members of my body are slave to me, and I control them. If they were controlled by someone or something else, they would no longer be part of "me." So for us to become part of Christ's body, we must let our sinful natures be killed. We must let baptism separate us from the world and our worldliness and simultaneously join us to Christ.

Now, being joined to Christ's body is essential, no doubt, and a person cannot long survive as a Christian without becoming a part of His body. If they believed and immediately died, it wouldn't matter that they hadn't become part of the Church. But if they stay here, they will need the Church to stay alive in their faith. If one of my fingers was cut off, it would die quickly. It might be possible for it to be surgically sewn back on, if it was done quickly. But if it was separated from me for long, it would die. So we too will die if we are separated from His body.

I Peter 3:21 confirms what I am saying. It says, "Baptism now saves you." If you look at the context, it is speaking of Noah and his family, and how they were saved by water, and how we are also saved by water in baptism. Now, we might ask, "How is it that Noah was saved by water? Wasn't he saved from the water by the ark?" Well, Noah was preserved by the ark through the water. The water brought death, and we partake in Jesus' death. He saves us through that death by His resurrection, and the ark saved Noah from the death that the water brought. But that water also saved Noah. It saved him by killing off everyone else. The world was corrupt, and the water washed it away and freed Noah from its influence. Our baptism into Jesus' death also frees us from the influence of the world, and saves us in that manner. Noah had the favor of God before the flood, and was "saved" in that sense. But he needed the flood to preserve him, and to preserve the faith. Noah was the only man in the world who was faithful to God, so the faith was dying out. The flood saved his faith. Baptism, by separating us from the world, saves our faith as well, and saves us from the world.

(Galatians 6:14 NASB) [...] the cross of Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Must we be baptized to be saved? Definitely yes. Can we be saved without being baptized? Definitely yes. "How is this possible?" you ask. Salvation is not a point, it is a road. When we begin to follow Jesus, we are saved. If we stop following, we are not saved. All that is required of you is to follow the Master. If you follow, and you have not yet reached baptism and you die, you are saved. If you have the opportunity to be baptized and you refrain, then you have stopped following, and you are not saved. But the important thing is not how far you have gone on the road, but the fact that you are still going on the road. There is no point at which you can stop and say, "There, I've done enough. Now I'm saved." You must continue walking. At the same time, there is no minimum requirement for how far you have walked, so long as you continue walking. If you've just started walking, and you die, you are in grace. If you've walked a long way, but then abandon Jesus, then you are out of grace. (cf. Philippians 3)

In other words, there is no point at which you can say that you have walked far enough, but there is also no point at which you can say that have not walked far enough. What matters is not how far you have walked, but that you are walking.

 

[christian-only]

First, baptism does not wash away sins. The scriptures are clear that the blood of Jesus does this (1 John 1:7 and Revelation 1:5 are some examples out of many).

It is certainly obvious that it is the blood of Christ that washes away sins. It is equally obvious, however, that the blood of Christ first washes a believer's sins away in baptism (Acts 22:16) and then later during his Christian walk upon his confession. (1 John 1:7-9) Afterall, Paul had indeed believed and repented 3 days prior to Acts 22:16 and had been praying and fasting too, BUT Ananias said "And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name," which indicates both (1) that although Paul had already believed, he was still in his sins AND (2) that it would be inside baptism that Christ's blood would wash away his sins for the first time. (NRSV)

Acts 16:31 says that if one believes in Jesus, he will be saved. The question then arises, why must we be baptized?

If one does believe Jesus then he will believe that Jesus gave the apostles the doctrine that he wanted men to accept. And, since Peter (an apostle) said "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven" (Acts 2:38 NRSV) it is obvious that those who truly believe Jesus will believe this.

 

[daveleau]

A person does not have to preach or be preached to to be Saved. A person could never go to an organized church and be saved (rare in the US but common in countries where Islam is the main religion or in countries like China where Christians are persecuted more than we are in the US. This is not excluded from the Bible although it is told that we should fellowship with other Christians.)
Your arguement is comparing apples and oranges. The Bible says that baptism and a belief in Christ Jesus as the Messiah are necessary for Salvation. How a person gets there has no bearing on their salvation. The question addressed here is whether that baptism is actual baptism in water as we see in churches or baptism of the Holy Spirit. Your arguement is absed on the idea that baptism, when mentioned in Scripture, talks only of baptism in water. I am argueing that this is not the case.
As for the man who was Saved on the cross, the theif believed after Christ had died, and he believed before Christ died. Which is it that caused him to be saved? It doesn't fit with the teaching of God to say that this man was saved by the Law. The man had not cleaned himself, nor followed any of the Jewish customs. He had not made sacrifice for his sins according to the Law. So, how could he be saved by the Law, which was the only path to God before Christ's sacrifice? The only way this man could have been saved was through grace. Grace was only bestowed by Jesus' sacrifice. There is nothing that supports your arguement other than trying to fit Scripture to fit your theological ideas.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing we do when we study Scripture (other than praying) is going in with an open mind and letting Scripture mold our ideas. If we mold the Scripture to our ideas, then it is fruitless to even bother to read Scripture. I was raised to believe that water baptism was required. But, in my studies, I have found that that is not the case, and that there is a difference between the work of water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I do not argue that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. My argument, which has not been recognized or addressed yet, is that water baptism is not necessary. Baptism IS necessary, but water baptism is not. There is a difference. As I said, there is only one Scripture that people quote that gives us the idea that water baptism is required. That is John 3:5. This one is often mis-read as being the service of dunking someone in water. My arguement is that this is not the case. The Ezekiel passage is evidence to support that, as is the Greek grammar of that verse. The Bible often talks of Baptism, but Baptism is baptism in the Holy Spirit. Does it not make sense that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is more important than being dunked in water? Surely, this work is important because Jesus did this work, as He observed many of the works of the Jewish customs like attending the Passover. We should follow His example. for, there was no other reason for Christ to be baptised other than to set the example for us, since He was sinless. But, dunking someone in water is NOT something that brings about Salvation. Jesus' sacrifice and our acceptance of this Sacrifice is all that is needed. I believe I have adequately and roundly rebutted any criticism to the theif on the cross. This is one prime example of how water baptism is not necessary. And the other arguements are very persuasive that water baptism is not necessary.

As I said, do the research yourself. Do a word study on baptism and see how many times that water is tied to baptism, and the context that surrounds these verses. Pray and ask God for the tools to do it. Water baptism is nothing but an outward expression of your committment to Christ. What happens inside is what counts. To say water baptism is necessary is like saying that eating something "dirty" will keep you out of Heaven because you are now unclean. It is like saying that Jesus' sacrifice and your acceptance of that is not enough. Nothing we can do (NOTHING) will bring about Salvation other than acceptance of His Gift.

You mention that baptism is done to you, and that makes it not a work. But, you make the decision, you walk up the stairs and you put yourself in the hands of the minister. you unlock your knees and hold your breath (hopefully ). You are doing all the things that really matter- the free will part. That is what makes it a work, and a work done by you.

It has been said above that everything we do is an act of God. If that is the case, then there is no free will. And if we have no free will, then there is no purpose in our existence. Everything we do is either the will of God, or it is the will of Satan. It is that choice that glorifies God and it is the reason He created us.

I believe in baptism. But the issue at hand is that you do not understand that there is a difference between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When we are saved, the Holy Spirit comes into us and baptises us. This is necessary and only happens if we believe.

The Nicene creed is an interesting point. Which baptism does the Nicene Creed recognize? The water or the Holy Spirit baptism? Are they not one, as I mentioned above. and how many times is it stated in the Bible that the Holy Spirit comes into your body during water baptism? It doesn't. As, I have stated in the top post, water baptism is done by God, and is figurative language, as is seen in Ezekiel. God cleases us, and the Hoyl Spirit enters us. This is true baptism. A sinful man (it seems blasphemous to say, but it is true that all preachers are sinful, since all men are sinful), dunking you in water is nothing more than a ceremony and an outward show of acceptance of the Faith.

Christian-Only- I see the back-handed comment that says that I must believe as you do to truly believe in Christ. I do not ask for an apology, but I do ask that you realize the influence that caused you to say this. God does not attack people or cause division. That is the work of Satan. God gives us the Word and it is our responsibility to study it and believe it, which I do. We all are influenced by bad forces from time to time and if we weren't, we wouldn't be human. Realize that this sort of talk is something that demeans and degrades your message and causes animosity between fellow Christians. This sort of action is never healthy spiritually. I know you have the best intentions, but I think you should think before you speak. If you do not, and you could continue to speak out of anger or out of judgment by which you are only hurting yourself.

 

[christian-only]

A person does not have to...be preached to to be Saved.

Then what does it mean "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe"? 1 Cor 1:21

God does not attack people or cause division. That is the work of Satan.

I merely referred to the words of Christ "He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me" (John 13:20) Jesus told Peter to preach "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven;" and Peter did. Those who believe Christ will believe Peter's words, because they are Christ's words.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I merely referred to the words of Christ "He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me" (John 13:20) Jesus told Peter to preach "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven;" and Peter did. Those who believe Christ will believe Peter's words, because they are Christ's words.

So are the words of Paul.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

There was clearly not ONE baptism during the Acts period, buy there is now: Paul says so.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.​

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

There is only ONE baptism necessary now, and that happens when you accept the Lord as your savior whether we know it or not...

And we have forgiveness of sins...

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;​

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

not from baptism, but through His blood.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Excellent post Dave!

Your arguement is absed on the idea that baptism, when mentioned in Scripture, talks only of baptism in water. I am argueing that this is not the case.

As for the man who was Saved on the cross, the theif believed after Christ had died, and he believed before Christ died. Which is it that caused him to be saved? It doesn't fit with the teaching of God to say that this man was saved by the Law. The man had not cleaned himself, nor followed any of the Jewish customs. He had not made sacrifice for his sins according to the Law. So, how could he be saved by the Law, which was the only path to God before Christ's sacrifice? The only way this man could have been saved was through grace. Grace was only bestowed by Jesus' sacrifice. There is nothing that supports your arguement other than trying to fit Scripture to fit your theological ideas.

Good point, let me add a little something to this. How was Abraham saved (positionally in "right" standing before God)? By faith. Where the OT saints saved because they adhered to the Covenant of Sinai or the Covenant of Abraham? The Covenant God made with Abraham (Gen 15) was unilateral, meaning that God was the only party out of the two (God and Abraham) that was responsible for fulfilling the Covenant. By God passing through the halves of the animals Abraham killed was in effect saying "you can kill me like these animals if this Covenant is not fulfilled".

Now how does this relate to baptism? The OT saints were saved by faith, as was the thief on the cross. What does Jesus say is necessary to enter His Kingdom? Faith, no mention of any act or work we do. Also, Paul mentions in Galatians 3 that those with faith are sons of Abraham, that we are spiritually Jews (God's Children). No mention of any kind of baptism there. It's funny how God did not change the "how" people are put into right standing with Him from the OT to the NT, it's has always been by faith.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Now, baptism is NOT a work. Why do I say this? Simple: when person-A preaches to person-B, person-B has NOT done any work. When person-A picks up person-B and carries them across the room, person-B has NOT done any work. Now, when person-A baptizes person-B, person-B has NOT done any work.

Work is that which I do - NOT that which someone else does to me.

I would suggest you do some research on how Jews baptised (yes Jews baptised, it was called Mikvah).

When a person (a Gentile that wanted to convert to Judasim, in the case before Jesus) would perform the cerimonialy washing (which is what our Christian baptism is based on), that person would immerse themselves 3 times under the water in the presence of the Rabbi they had been studying under.

As the early believers we Jews it is not unlikely that this is how they were baptised. I think the whole idea of someone "dunking" us was added much later by Gentiles.

So in it's orginal 1st century historical and cultural context baptism IS a work, it IS something the individual does (albeit in obedience to Jesus).

 

[christian-only]

I would suggest you do some research on how Jews baptised

I would suggest that you read how baptism was done in the New Testament "Not giving heed to Jewish fables" (Titus 1:14): Acts 8:38 is very clear "and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." Also Acts 22:16 "arise, and be baptized," NOT baptize yourself. Also Acts 2:38 "be baptized" NOT baptize yourself. Gal 3:27 "have been baptized" not have baptized yourself.

 

[daveleau]

Then what does it mean "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe"? 1 Cor 1:21



I merely referred to the words of Christ "He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me" (John 13:20) Jesus told Peter to preach "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven;" and Peter did. Those who believe Christ will believe Peter's words, because they are Christ's words.

I do not doubt the need for baptism for salvation. I have merely found through study, prayer and the Holy Spirit that water baptism is not what is meant. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is meant. Water baptism is something we should do because of the example Jesus set, but it is not the same as baptism spoken about in the verses regarding Salvation. Please go back and read what I first wrote. Every post you have made has made me think that you did not understand the basic idea of my post. It is that baptism is not synonymous with water baptism. Study and you will see what I am talking about. Whether you agree, there is very credible evidence coming from many credible men of God. The eunuch does go down int he water with Philip, but this is not evidence for water baptism for salvation. It merely states that he observed what was asked of him, which we all should do. But, it does not say that water baptism is necessary for salvation. The only verse that states that is John 3:5. There is no other verse that says water baptism is necessary. There are a myriad of verse that say baptism is necessary, but only one that says water baptism, and I addressed that above in the initial post.

1 Cor 1:21 is a great verse (as are all of them). But, everything in the Bible does not have to do with Salvation. Salvation is only the beginning. Once we are saved, we are set out to do His work. Preaching is one of these things that we do for God. It is not contingent on Slavation. If it were, and if the work we did was contingent on Salvation, hundreds of verses would be found to be null and void and the verses describing what is neccessatu for Salvation would take volumes to complete.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Is baptism required for salvation? The answer depends on what you mean by the question. Sins can be forgiven before baptism. There are multiple scriptures that speak of a person being "saved" or having "eternal life" by believing. Nothing other than belief is mentioned. There are others that mention more than belief, but that still do not mention baptism, such as Romans 10:9 and 13.

Belief is the first thing that happens in salvation. Then comes repentance, a turning from sin. Baptism kills the sinful nature and unites us with Christ in death and burial. Communion unites us with His body and enables us to be alive in Christ. However, it is not the physical part of baptism or communion that saves our souls. We are warned in I Corinthians of taking communion "unworthily." If we take communion without discerning the Lord's body, we eat and drink comdemnation unto ourselves. So we can see that it is not the actual physical eating and drinking that is pleasing to God here, since it can be done in such a way as to actually incur God's wrath. Baptism also can be done without a pure heart, and in such a case, it is of no use.

These things are "works." Works are things that we do; they are actions. Beliefs are things that are not actions. However, beliefs stir works. If the works are not there, then the belief is not real belief. Conversely, if the belief is not there, then the works are not real works either. Bonhoeffer says, "Only he who is obedient believes, and only he who believes is obedient." Jesus' work is what saves us, and it our trusting in Jesus that brings that salvation to our lives. However, if we truly trust Jesus, then we will follow Him. Following requires movement; it requires action; it requires works. So long as we follow Jesus, we are saved. If we stop following, at any point in our journey, then we are not really saved. (Whether there was ever true salvation or not is a debate that I'll leave for the Calvinists and Arminians on another day.) If we are actively following, then it doesn't matter how far we have gone when we die: we are saved. So baptism is not strictly required for salvation, in that a person could die before reaching that point and still be following Jesus. However, this would be a very rare case, since baptism comes so early on the journey.

Being united with Christ is what salvation is all about. This is how we are progressively saved: we are becoming more like Christ. However, if we are not growing, then we are dead. Plants that are alive grow and bear fruit, and Jesus said that if we do not bear fruit, then we will be cut away (John 15). Baptism and communion are somewhat closely related: both are about union with Christ, and both are related to salvation ("He who eats my flesh and drinks by blood has eternal life" John 6:54). If you truly believe on the Son of God, then you will become increasingly united with Him. Your path will quickly lead to union in His death and burial, and in coming to life in His body, through baptism and communion respectively. The outward manifestations of this show what is happening on a spiritual level. Salvation continues past that as well. God wants us to do His work in the earth, in His name. He wants us to live out the life of Christ in earth (Galatians 2:20; Philippians 1:21). This is what salvation is about.

Baptism comes at a certain point on our path in following Jesus. It is not the very first thing, however. If you have started on the path of following Jesus, then you are saved if you die, whether or not you have reached the point of baptism. On the other hand, it is also true that just because you have reached baptism -- or any point on the path, for that matter -- that you have done enough to be saved. Salvation requires that you continue to follow.

Paul speaks of the union that salvation brings, and how it is progressive. I will end this post with a quotation that shows how we must continue forward. Remember, the important thing is not how far you have gotten, but that you are still getting somewhere!

In my zeal for God I persecuted the church. According to the righteousness stipulated in the law I was blameless. But these assets I have come to regard as liabilities because of Christ. More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things--indeed, I regard them as dung!--that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness--a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness. My aim is to know him, to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings, and to be like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained this--that is, I have not already been perfected--but I strive to lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus also laid hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself to have attained this. Instead I am single-minded: Forgetting the things that are behind and reaching out for the things that are ahead, with this goal in mind, I strive toward the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let those of us who are "perfect" embrace this point of view. If you think otherwise, God will reveal to you the error of your ways. Nevertheless, let us live up to the standard that we have already attained. (Philippians 3:6-16 NET)

 

[Basil]

Regardless of all the opinions given, Jesus taught the Apostles to go into the world baptizing all who they converted. The Bible and all sources, even those written by 1st century Christians that are not part of canonized scripture, show that water baptism was done as part of conversion to our faith. Jesus Himself was baptized by John to show the way to begin our journey of faith through life. Isn't this alone enough? We certainly cannot rewrite or ignore what Christ Himself set up.

Why isn't it possible, in your mind, that God could use a real tangible act to bring salvation to us? God meets us here on earth in our humanity using real physical things to save us, such as bread and wine in communion, and water in baptism. These are things our Lord established for us. Be careful not to teach against or question to boldly things that God has established. If you align yourself in opposition to what God wills, you are in oppostion to God.

Basil

 

[daveleau]

I agree, to an extent. I am merely showing that there is a difference between water baptism and baptism spoken about in most of the Bible in regards to necessary acts for salvation. Water baptism SHOULD be done. The Bible tells us to do many things, including love our brothers as ourselves, tithe, not to kill, not to judge, etc. But none of these is a contingent for Salvation. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying we have a carte blanc to sin, because we pay for our sins. I am saying that once you are saved, nothing you can do will revoke that and nothing you do not do will revoke that either. If you do not choose to be baptised in water, you are still baptised int he Holy Spirit, which is the important thing that happens when we accept Jesus as our personal savior.

Why isn't it possible to think that God uses tangible acts for Salvation?
Works not part of Salvation references:
Psa_49:7-8; Psa_127:1-2; Ecc_1:14; Isa_43:26; Isa_57:12; Isa_64:6; Eze_7:19; Eze_33:12-19; Dan_9:18; Mat_5:20; Luk_17:7-10; Luk_18:9-14; Act_13:39; Rom_3:20-31; Rom 4:1-22; Rom_8:3; Rom_9:16; Rom_9:31-32; Rom_11:6; 1Co_13:1-3; Gal_2:16; Gal_2:19; Gal_2:21; Gal 3:1-29; Gal_4:9-11; Gal_5:2; Gal_5:4; Gal_5:6; Gal_5:18; Gal_6:15; Eph_2:8-9; Phi_3:3-9; Col_2:20-23; 2Ti_1:9; ***_3:4-5; Heb_4:3-10; Heb_6:1-2; Heb_9:1-14; Jam_2:10-11

God uses our works (tangible acts) to bring about the salvation through others, for instance, by setting a good example and by preaching to them. But, there is nothing you can do outside of Accepting Christ for receipt of Salvation. This one act is sufficient for salvation, but is only the beginning of the walk God has for us. We SHOULD be baptised in water,a nd we should do other tangible acts (works) to bring others to Christ and to show our faith for Him.

 

[inhimitrust]

All works of any kind was done away with after 70ad and the bringing in of the new "heavens and earth". There is nothing we can do of our own to gain favor with God, except shining our "light" to others by our actions, words and deeds with others. When a person accepts Jesus Christ, that person is automatically "baptized" with God's Holy Spirit and is washed of all sins, because Christ represented the Holy Spirit(aka "son") in the flesh, sent by God and His "blood" cleanses us. That person then comes into a relationship with God Himself, thru prayer, talking to Him and most importantly, reading the Bible daily. I don't pray to Jesus, but to God, but I do acknowledge Christ as His "son", being sent to us with the message that God was bringing in the "new thing", worshipping in spirit with us being His temple.

Isaiah 43:18 "Do not remember the former things, Nor consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing, Now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it? I will even make a road in the wilderness [And] rivers in the desert.

Joel 2:28 " And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on [My] menservants and on [My] maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

John 1:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining. 9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them [and be] their God. 4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

Galatians 5:22-25 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

A person truly in the Spirit of God always has inner peace and his sorrows are comforted and of course, the promise of eternal life. Everything before the "old age" was a "shadow" of things that were to come, to worship in Spirit, thru God's Holy Spirit. Remember how Paul was angered the way his disciples were baptizing (using his names and others)

The churches make up their own "manmade" doctrines on this tradition. Who can baptize (priest, minister, another believer etc.), what words to say, how is it performed, how old one must be etc. etc. I was baptized in the gulf of Mexico by a minister, not because I "had to", but to experience what it is was like to have it done back in the NT. Baptism is misunderstood and has led to many different types of "doctrines" and man made traditions that were not intended for this new age of grace and faith and confuse newer christians I believe.

I am non denominational and just refer myself as a "desciple", a light to others thru love and compassion. The 2 main commandments of Love God and Neighbor covers every commandment and statute, because where there is Love, there can be no sin.

 

[christian-only]

When a person accepts Jesus Christ, that person is AUTOMATICALLY "baptized" with God's Holy Spirit and is washed of all sins

I capitalized the word AUTOMATICALLY in the quote above to show the fundamental error here. Note that in neither Acts 2 where the Jews believed in Jesus after Peter's sermon, nor in Acts 22 where Paul believed in Jesus on the road to Damascus do we find an AUTOMATIC baptism of any sort. In fact, in Acts 2, Peter commanded those now believing Jews "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven;" (NRSV) and in Acts 22 Ananias commanded Paul (who had been a believer for 3 days already) "Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.'" (NRSV) Now then, it is obvious that believers are not AUTOMATICALLY baptized nor are their sins AUTOMATICALLY washed away. In both instances we see men who are believers but yet still in ther sins and still, therefore, unsaved. They must submit to water baptism before God saves them. So must we.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

John 3:5 says that you must be baptized of the water and of the spirit or you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[inhimitrust]

I capitalized the word AUTOMATICALLY in the quote above to show the fundamental error here. Note that in neither Acts 2 where the Jews believed in Jesus after Peter's sermon, nor in Acts 22 where Paul believed in Jesus on the road to Damascus do we find an AUTOMATIC baptism of any sort. In fact, in Acts 2, Peter commanded those now believing Jews "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven;" (NRSV) and in Acts 22 Ananias commanded Paul (who had been a believer for 3 days already) "Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.'" (NRSV) Now then, it is obvious that believers are not AUTOMATICALLY baptized nor are their sins AUTOMATICALLY washed away. In both instances we see men who are believers but yet still in ther sins and still, therefore, unsaved. They must submit to water baptism before God saves them. So must we.

I thought that might get your attention. Why is a person baptized? Who can baptize? What age is a person baptized?How can it be done, sprinkle, immersion, pouring? Does it have to be clean water, or can it be a river?
First off, before a person can truly baptized, he must already be saved. How is this? He must confess in belief of Jesus Christ. But how does he know who Christ is? We must show him passages from the bible what God is like and what Christ and the desciples preached. After this, the spirit of God should come upon Him and he should actually feel the presence. The presence will open up his eyes to the words in the bible and he will see that to be truly "born again" he should be submerged in "death" and risen in "life" with Christ.
After this, he must be taught to read the bible everyday for at least an hour or so, starting with the gosples. If a person isn't interested in reading God's words in the bible, then that person may not stay "saved" and fall away back to his old self.
How many bible just collect dust at home? How many read more "end time, left behind" books than they read the bible? The bible is the only true source for knowledge of God and Christ, no other book. I read thru it completely in about 2 months when I was saved last May, and continue to read it continuesly.
So my dear friends, dust off those bibles and start reading everyday to really enjoy God's words and tell others to do the same. God bless