Governed Apology Exploded
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I think it's great to be polite to everybody, but I don't like the idea of special treatment for women in particular. I just don't see why women are more deserving of it.
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Shivalry
- Thread starter Shreck
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Aimee30
That's Me in the Corner
I'd think a lot more of a man if he was polite, courteous, kind. I'd like a guy who thinks more of buying me a gift, complimenting me, taking me out to dinner or a movie, and other considerate acts, rather than thinking of how good I can make out or if I can be his one night stand/live-in. A girl would feel this type of man is more secure and worthy of being married.
However, we don't like machoistic acts to go with it, such as having a fight with a man who just looked at his girl wrong or some of the ideas some men have that I listed above,
I suppose a female would have to do more than just accept a man's gracious gifts though--like thanking him for it, even if it is not something the lady likes. Being good emotional support is a good idea. She might even want to get him gifts too eventually or offer a home-cooked meal, even if someone else has to cook it.
However some of these occur naturally when a person loves another, so it wouldn't be something one would have to worry about except around his/her own wife/girlfriend or husband/boyfriend.
Being generally polite in public is a good idea, although I know that is going out the window with the masses of people who try to mow me down with their car or shopping cart. I have problems being polite personally, if others aren't.
However, we don't like machoistic acts to go with it, such as having a fight with a man who just looked at his girl wrong or some of the ideas some men have that I listed above,
I suppose a female would have to do more than just accept a man's gracious gifts though--like thanking him for it, even if it is not something the lady likes. Being good emotional support is a good idea. She might even want to get him gifts too eventually or offer a home-cooked meal, even if someone else has to cook it.
However some of these occur naturally when a person loves another, so it wouldn't be something one would have to worry about except around his/her own wife/girlfriend or husband/boyfriend.
Being generally polite in public is a good idea, although I know that is going out the window with the masses of people who try to mow me down with their car or shopping cart. I have problems being polite personally, if others aren't.
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fanatiquefou
you know, for kids!
I like having the door held open for me, or to have someone help me carry a big load of groceries. I also like to hold the door open for other people, or to help them out with their heavy loads. I don't like it when men treat me as if I'm delicate and need to be coddled, or when they just assume I want them to carry the heavy item. I don't like it when men are so insistent that they must open the door that they refuse to let me open it, rushing ahead of me just to get there first and creating an awkward situation. Things like that tend to make me feel diminished, not special. I don't think anyone deserves special treatment because of their gender, but rather everyone deserves special treatment and consideration as a human being. If that's what you mean by chivalry, then I'm all for it.
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armyman_83
Guest
fanatiquefou said:
What is wrong with seeing you as delicate? I mean its not like your some pro-body builder. Of course for the most part we are equal, but does that mean that it is wrong to help you? You should be glade that you are exalted for being a lady; is it wrong to carry heavy objects for a lady, of course not!!! It is just Chivalrous. "The beauty of young men is their strength." so don't frown when you help you out.
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fanatiquefou
you know, for kids!
What's wrong with seeing me as delicate? Mainly the fact that I'm not! I don't want to be seen as a hothouse flower, I don't want to be treated like some fragile object, and I don't want to be exalted just because I'm a lady! I'm nothing like that! I think attitudes like that tend to put up barriers between men and women. When you put a woman on a pedestal, you're basically incapacitating her from having any real function - she's just a treasure to be possessed. I think sometimes some men can get so focused on being 'chivalrous' to women, on some imagined mysterious or ethereal quality they impose on them, that women as real human beings sometimes get pushed to the side. The whole idea behind chivalry towards women is that they're weaker and less capable and need to have a man to do for them.
And I'm sure that nothing like this crosses the minds of most guys when they're trying to be chivalrous, but still, I think the attitudes underlying the whole thing are still there, and subtly influence the way men see women.
And that just doesn't cut it in today's society, but doing kind and thoughtful things for everyone regardless of gender is wonderful, and I'm all for it.
Anyway, why would you think that all women would want to be treated in a certain way, any more than all men want to be treated the same? Why would a man, or any person, want to treat me differently than how I want to be treated? I expect to be treated with consideration as a human being, not as a female of the species. I'd do the same for anyone.
And I'm sure that nothing like this crosses the minds of most guys when they're trying to be chivalrous, but still, I think the attitudes underlying the whole thing are still there, and subtly influence the way men see women.
And that just doesn't cut it in today's society, but doing kind and thoughtful things for everyone regardless of gender is wonderful, and I'm all for it.
Anyway, why would you think that all women would want to be treated in a certain way, any more than all men want to be treated the same? Why would a man, or any person, want to treat me differently than how I want to be treated? I expect to be treated with consideration as a human being, not as a female of the species. I'd do the same for anyone.
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Every person is delicate. Those who fail to realize it dwell in grave danger. Those who think they are special balance at the edge. How come women are so concerned with how they are treated, or even more important, how they are seen as anyway?
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armyman_83
Guest
fanatiquefou said:
I just can't see how your thinking
Of course Chivalrous men should be kind to everyone, but we should be extra kind to the ladies. Sure your right about the underlying causes and people are always going to see women different from men---because they are. Its not a bad thing (who would want nothing but men walking around
?), its just the way it is. Sure there are some ladies who aren't "delicate" and what not, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't help them out.
"The whole idea behind chivalry towards women is that they're weaker and less capable and need to have a man to do for them."
Your right, I see most women as weaker than men; mainly because they are. AND BY NOT MEANS take this as a bad thing, do you think I want Miss.Schwarzenegger every where? Less capable than men, hah, men are pretty stupid.
But am I being a sexist pig when I help a young lady carry somthing and not a grown size young man? Of course not, I am being Chivlarous, that young man would never want me to help him over the young lady (unless he wasn't Chivlarous!).Ladies can function! So long as they are on thier pedestal.
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Shreck said:
I rather thought Dr. King Jr. summed it up. Not by the color of one's skin (or gender, sexual proclivity, etc) but by the content of their character.
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skinner said:
Of course feminists and other women alike want to be treated with respect. What world do you live in?
I hope you're being sarcastic. Being equal meant not getting special treatment. You're talking as if it would be strange for a white man to protest against apartheid. A white man, though he might be "lowered" by apartheid coming to an end, might desire justice and the equality of the races.
Geez.
The thing I hate about you saying this, is that you sound as if it's a guy's duty to do this. It's as if women are so weak and delicate and can't fight their "dragons" perfectly fine on their own.
Or you mean to say that men don't need help from women to fight their "dragons", but women do because women are weak and emotional.
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armyman_83 said:I just can't see how your thinking
Women and men are different only in anatomical terms.
But the way you and other sexist people see women different is that they're weaker and NEED this help more so than any man.
Why do you need to be extra chivalrous to ladies? Be extra chivalrous to every person. I do not see why women have to be percieved as a pretty picture that men have to take care of and need to give more protection to. It's like, "It's a lady! Don't swear in front of her!" Well hello? Don't swear in front of men either. Why special treatment for women? Women don't in any way deserve more chivalry over men.
When you say "different from men," you not only say physically, but also infer emotionally that they're fragile ears can't hear you speak about scary/horrific things, and their fragile hearts need you to support them.
There may be nothing particularly wrong about that, but when you say that men can hear, see and do whatever they will because they happen to be stronger and "different," that's where you become a sexist pig.
Sure there are some ladies who aren't "delicate" and what not, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't help them out.
"The whole idea behind chivalry towards women is that they're weaker and less capable and need to have a man to do for them."
Your right, I see most women as weaker than men; mainly because they are. AND BY NOT MEANS take this as a bad thing, do you think I want Miss.Schwarzenegger every where? Less capable than men, hah, men are pretty stupid.
Ladies can function! So long as they are on thier pedestal.
It is always a bad thing to have women "weaker than men."
By extension you mean that women are dependant on men and can't do the same things as men. However, you would say, men can do whatever they want because they're infinitely stronger and much more capable.
Woman have no place on any pedestal more than a man does. No one can function on a pedestal because "Oh my gosh, the lady's too delicate! Let me do it for her! She needs me!"
You know there's nothing wrong with a woman needing a man, but when you infer that a man doesn't need the woman for the same purposes as a woman would need a man, it becomes discriminatory.
Go ahead and help a woman out, but be just as eager to help out a weak man. Both the woman and the man should recieve just as much priority in your "chivalrous acts." And stop being sexist and viewing the woman as if she NEEDS this help you're giving her just because she's a woman.
Would that be a bad thing to have Ms Schwarzeneggers?
I don't think you'd be very disturbed if men gained a few pounds in muscle, but I'm sure you'd be offended if women did- a threat to your masculinity?
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I've come to the honest opinion that Chivalry is what you get when you put women on a pedestal and start treating them as things, not people. At least, the classical concepts of chivalry. Then, there's being a mensch and treating women like they deserve to be treated. Unfortunately, most women don't often respond well to men who are chivalrous OR treat them as autonomous people. :/
I'm not a chivalrous person, for the reason I stated before: I consider it ultimately a degredation of women and if you look at it honestly, you'll probably feel the same way. Of course, I pay for meals, hold the door, and such, because it's cultural.
As was said, there is a lot of truth to this. What I'm trying to figure out is whether it's mostly genetic to women -- sort of a 'mate with the big warrior caveman, because he can bring me more furs than the smart sensitive one' -- sort of gone rogue, to the point where women are naturally attracted to abbrasiveness and discourtesy, as the 'tough' men were generally less respectful to women, or whether it's just a result of our highly dysfunctional culture that has forced women into a state of permanent cynicism.
Maybe a little of both. Not all women are this way.
I'm not a chivalrous person, for the reason I stated before: I consider it ultimately a degredation of women and if you look at it honestly, you'll probably feel the same way. Of course, I pay for meals, hold the door, and such, because it's cultural.
As was said, there is a lot of truth to this. What I'm trying to figure out is whether it's mostly genetic to women -- sort of a 'mate with the big warrior caveman, because he can bring me more furs than the smart sensitive one' -- sort of gone rogue, to the point where women are naturally attracted to abbrasiveness and discourtesy, as the 'tough' men were generally less respectful to women, or whether it's just a result of our highly dysfunctional culture that has forced women into a state of permanent cynicism.
Maybe a little of both. Not all women are this way.
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Again, I think you have very legitimate reasons for feeling this way whether you can express them for not that go deeper than just personal desires. Chivalry means that women have doors held for them, are pampered, and are put on a pedestal. But when you put a dainty flower up on a pedestal, you strip it of its right to personal autonomy and start treating it as a thing, not a person; by putting it on a pedestal, you make it easily knocked off.
As a result, women are expected to behave certain ways and are mistreated or denigrated as whoreish, unaffeminate, butch, or a ***** if they do not live up to the roles that have been forced onto the pedestal by their chivalrous counterparts, and the end result is the same chivalrous men mistreating women that don't live up to their standards to an extreme.
In a sense, "chivalry" is a trade of a person's right to do as they think is best, rather than be told what is and is not lady-like -- IE, go to college -- in exchange for the mere pinannce of having the door held and their meals paid for. This is why there is so much backlash from feminists that at times, can be ridiculous: I think it's been a pretty raw deal for the women, honestly, and such a reaction isn't surprising.
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At the same time, we need to make a distinction between being "Chivalrous" and "being kind and respectful to women."
At least one isn't bad, and depending on what a person means by "chivalry", it may not be bad. And, chivalry as I discussed isn't always bad; some women want a chivalrous relationship and some men want to give a woman one, and if they want to play those roles, good for them!
At least one isn't bad, and depending on what a person means by "chivalry", it may not be bad. And, chivalry as I discussed isn't always bad; some women want a chivalrous relationship and some men want to give a woman one, and if they want to play those roles, good for them!
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Nymphalidae
Well-Known Member
Arkanin said:
I like men who are capable adults. That being said, I prefer academic, geeky men. The gun-toting chivalrous types need not apply.
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Good for you! Great that there are a lot of women this way.
I find myself in a strange situation with dating. I'm terribly attracted to people that are extremely un-mainstream.
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So pleased i did not offend you yesterday, glad to see you back.
It should please you to know that i am a geek, just missing the academic bit.
It should please you to know that i am a geek, just missing the academic bit.
Nymphalidae said:
I like men who are capable adults. That being said, I prefer academic, geeky men. The gun-toting chivalrous types need not apply.
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meebs
The dev!l loves rock and roll
Nymphalidae said:
I like men who are capable adults. That being said, I prefer academic, geeky men. The gun-toting chivalrous types need not apply.
hey! i like my men the same way! Except i do like them to be a wee bit athletic but not obsessed with their bodies and looks
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